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#1
do you believe it exists

state your claims and such

no poop throwing in this thread pls
banned
Last edited by deadsmileyface at May 26, 2014,
#2
Quote by deadsmileyface
do you believe it exists

state your claims and such

no poop throwing in this thread pls


Define altruism.
#3
Quote by SlackerBabbath
Define altruism.

I refuse to be involved in this thread, this is for the people to discuss not for me to espouse my views

unless they need to be defended

google it bud
banned
#4
Yep,

I believe, because I have met, people out there who genuinely believe in giving things with no reward. It's quite noble actually
Come back if you want to
And remember who you are
‘Cause there's nothing here for you my dear
And everything must pass
#7
Quote by deadsmileyface
I refuse to be involved in this thread, this is for the people to discuss not for me to espouse my views

unless they need to be defended

google it bud


I know what it means, and I also know that the definition of altruism can vary somewhat, so what we need to know is how you are defining it in the opening question before we can say whether we believe or not in the particular form of altruism that you are talking about here.
Last edited by SlackerBabbath at May 26, 2014,
#8
Quote by Eastwinn
yes. egoism is bull.

yes egoism is bull but thats not the question

the question is do you think people can be selfless and not have ulterior motives for doing things even if they do so subconsciously
banned
#9
yes because i do not believe that feeling good that you did a kind thing for another person discounts it. i encounter genuine kindness every day people are very nice & kind.
#11
Quote by Thrashtastic15
yes because i do not believe that feeling good that you did a kind thing for another person discounts it.

fair enough
banned
#12
Quote by deadsmileyface
yes egoism is bull but thats not the question

the question is do you think people can be selfless and not have ulterior motives for doing things even if they do so subconsciously


yes. this question is directly related to egoism: are all of our actions motivated by self-interest? i find this easier to answer in a truncated form: are all of our actions motivated? no, not in the slightest.
i don't know why i feel so dry
#13
Quote by SlackerBabbath
I know what it means, and I also know that the definition of altruism can vary somewhat, so what we need to know is how you are defining it in the opening question before we can say whether we believe or not in the particular form of altruism that you are talking about here.

fair enough

i am talking about 100 percent true altruism with no benefit to the self

some people would say that something like kidney transplants are proof of this

do you agree?
banned
#14
There is always some benefit to oneself, because one will feel good about doing something good. Plus there is always the chance of getting something back in the future.
Quote by Carmel
I can't believe you are whoring yourself out like that.

ಠ_ಠ
#15
Quote by deadsmileyface
yes egoism is bull but thats not the question

the question is do you think people can be selfless and not have ulterior motives for doing things even if they do so subconsciously


In it's purest form, no, probably not.

It's impossible to have no ulterior motive in doing an act of kindness if it makes you happy to do an act of kindness. You get the 'reward' of happiness which must surely be counted as an ulterior motive

If on the other hand we were talking about whether an act of kindness must always bring an advantage to it's originator, then no, not necessarily, for example there's no advantage to giving one's life to save another's.

Quote by deadsmileyface
fair enough

i am talking about 100 percent true altruism with no benefit to the self

some people would say that something like kidney transplants are proof of this

do you agree?


If the person giving the kidney gains happiness from his/her gift, then that surely is a 'benefit'.
Last edited by SlackerBabbath at May 26, 2014,
#16
Unless the person believes in heaven. Then giving your life for someone is your golden ticket in..
Quote by Carmel
I can't believe you are whoring yourself out like that.

ಠ_ಠ
#17
allow me to provide the classic counter example.

you're in a foxhole with your fellow soldiers and a grenade lands just on the fringe of it. out of instinct, you jump on the grenade to protect your buds. there is no time to enjoy some sort of moral joy, you're too busy being dead, and jumping on the grenade was not motivated by operant or any higher level learning, it was impulse.
i don't know why i feel so dry
#18
Who the hell jumps on a grenade? I would jump the other way
Quote by Carmel
I can't believe you are whoring yourself out like that.

ಠ_ಠ
#19
Quote by Neo Evil11
Unless the person believes in heaven. Then giving your life for someone is your golden ticket in..


Only if the belief turns out to be correct... otherwise giving your life for someone cannot possibly give you a personal advantage.

It may give you a feeling of happiness just before you die, but it's relative to what you lose in return for that brief moment of happiness.
#20
who would feel anything but terror lying on a live grenade?
i don't know why i feel so dry
#21
They would. But no one would jump on a grenade.
Quote by Carmel
I can't believe you are whoring yourself out like that.

ಠ_ಠ
#23
Aah but if you catch one they don´t go off, now do they?

Do they?
Quote by Carmel
I can't believe you are whoring yourself out like that.

ಠ_ಠ
#24
Quote by Neo Evil11
Aah but if you catch one they don´t go off, now do they?

Do they?


Pretty sure if you catch it after the pin is pulled, you're still screwed.....jus' sayin'
Come back if you want to
And remember who you are
‘Cause there's nothing here for you my dear
And everything must pass
#25
Quote by Neo Evil11
They would. But no one would jump on a grenade.


On July 1, 1916 at the Battle of Thiepval Ridge British army private William McFadzean of the 14th battalion, the Royal Irish Rifles threw himself on top of a box of Mills bombs after the pin came loose on two of them whilst he was attempting to load the bombs into a bandolier. As a result of his action only one other man in the trench was injured in the resulting explosion. As a result of his actions Private McFadzean was posthumously awarded the Victoria cross.

On December 19, 1941 at the Battle of Hong Kong, Canadian Army Company Sergeant Major John Robert Osborn jumped on a grenade, sacrificing himself to save his men. He was posthumously awarded the Victoria Cross.

On November 7, 1943 at Bougainville, Marine Sergeant Herbert J. Thomas, Jr deliberately fell on a grenade, sacrificing himself protecting nearby Marines.

On September 1, 1950, near Yongsan, South Korea, U.S. Army Private First Class David M. Smith noticed an enemy grenade lobbed into his company's emplacement. PFC Smith shouted a warning to his comrades and, fully aware of the odds against him, flung himself upon it. Although he was mortally wounded by this, his act saved 5 men from injury or death.

On February 11, 1954, IDF private Nathan Elbaz was disarming grenades when he noticed one of the grenade's safeties had slipped. He grabbed the grenade and ran from the tent but realized he wouldn't be able to throw the grenade away without harming some of his friends, so he smothered the explosion with his body.

On February 23, 1971, a M35 2½-ton cargo truck was ambushed by a squad of North Vietnamese Army (NVA) soldiers near An Khê. At one point during the firefight, an NVA soldier threw a fragmentation grenade into the truck's compartment. 21-year-old Specialist Four Larry G. Dahl was the only occupant who heard the grenade land into the truck. Realizing that there was not sufficient time to return it, he immediately threw himself on top of the grenade, saving his comrades' lives but at the cost of his own. Dahl was posthumously awarded the Medal of Honor.

On April 14, 2004, near Husaybah, Iraq, Jason Dunham used his body and helmet to shield others from a grenade explosion - but died shortly afterward from his injuries.

On July 26, 2006, IDF Major Roi Klein, during the Battle of Bint Jbeil jumped on a grenade thrown into the house where Klein and his unit were present and stopped the explosion with his body.

On September 29, 2006 in Iraq, U.S. Navy SEAL Michael A. Monsoor, died after falling on a grenade.

On December 4, 2006 in the Iraqi capital Baghdad, 19 year old U.S. Army Spc. Ross A. McGinnis was killed instantly when he used his body to smother a grenade, saving the lives of four nearby soldiers.

In 2008 near Sangin in Afghanistan, Royal Marine Lance Corporal Matthew Croucher used his body and rucksack to pin a grenade to the floor, suffering "just a nose bleed" as a result.

On January 27, 2012 Russian MVD Spetsnaz Sergeant Evgeny Epov saved the life of several of his fellow soldiers during a raid against radical militants in Kizlyarsky District, Dagestan. Sgt. Epov was posthumously awarded with the Hero of the Russian Federation medal.

On March 28, 2012, Russian military Major Sergei Solnechnikov pushed another soldier away from and fell on a grenade during training exercises at a base near Belogorsk. Maj. Solnechnikov was posthumously awarded with the Hero of the Russian Federation medal.


You were saying?
#26
It does depend on what definition of altruism you're trying to defend.

Trivially all acts are "self-interested" in that they must come some motivation or desire you hold, and inasmuch as you think that being able to satisfy your desires or act in the ways you want to is good for you, then all actions are "good for you" in some sense.

But if the question is just whether we can genuinely desire goods for people other than ourselves and act in ways that aren't just in our interest, then yeah of course people do every day.
Last edited by MadClownDisease at May 26, 2014,
#28
Quote by SlackerBabbath


On September 29, 2006 in Iraq, U.S. Navy SEAL Michael A. Monsoor, died after falling on a grenade.


You were saying?

That doesn't count.
Quote by Carmel
I can't believe you are whoring yourself out like that.

ಠ_ಠ
#29
Quote by MadClownDisease
It does depend on what definition of altruism you're trying to defend.

Trivially all acts are "self-interested" in that they must come some motivation or desire you hold, and inasmuch as you think that being able to satisfy your desires or act in the ways you want to is good for you, then all actions are "good for you in some sense.

But if the question is just can we genuinely desire goods for people other than ourselves and act in ways that aren't just in our interest, then yeah of course people do every day.


Absolutely hit the nail squarely on the head there.

Quote by Neo Evil11
That doesn't count.

It didn't say he 'accidently' fell on it.

In all of these instances, the term 'fell' refers to someone deliberately falling upon an explosive to shield their comrades.
Last edited by SlackerBabbath at May 26, 2014,
#30
I don't know. I don't think I've really done anything truly selfless because even when I'm being nice to other people it's because their happiness will lift me up, and volunteer work I've done has been to make myself look good on CVs etc.

So I am just a selfish bastard.

longing rusted furnace daybreak seventeen benign nine homecoming one freight car
#31
Quote by SlackerBabbath
It didn't say he 'accidently' fell on it.

In all of these instances, the term 'fell' refers to someone deliberately falling upon an explosive to shield their comrades.

I bet they were pushed.
Quote by Carmel
I can't believe you are whoring yourself out like that.

ಠ_ಠ
#32
Quote by EndTheRapture51
I don't know. I don't think I've really done anything truly selfless because even when I'm being nice to other people it's because their happiness will lift me up, and volunteer work I've done has been to make myself look good on CVs etc.

So I am just a selfish bastard.


Have you ever stopped to consider how much happiness in others your own happiness will generate?

You do something nice for someone and it makes you happy, but it doesn't end there, 'smiles are infectious' as they say, you arrive home in a good mood which in turn puts your loved ones in a good mood, who then go off and interact with others, spreading that good mood about.

Yes, you're getting something out of it, but does that matter compared to the effect you have?
#33
By semantic wankery, no. One always gets SOMETHING out of it so there's always some sort of quid quo pro going on. By treating it as Lots For Little, yes.
Quote by EndTheRapture51
who pays five hundred fucking dollars for a burger
#34
True altruism obviously can't exist, but we could set an arbitrary threshold and then anything beyond that threshold could be considered altruistic for all practical purposes. In the graph below, the Y access represents how selfless something is and I'm not sure what the X access represents. The red line is a threshold, everything over which could be, for practical purposes, considered to be altruistic.
Attachments:
threshold.PNG
There's no such thing; there never was. Where I am going you cannot follow me now.
#35
Quote by SlackerBabbath
Have you ever stopped to consider how much happiness in others your own happiness will generate?

You do something nice for someone and it makes you happy, but it doesn't end there, 'smiles are infectious' as they say, you arrive home in a good mood which in turn puts your loved ones in a good mood, who then go off and interact with others, spreading that good mood about.

Yes, you're getting something out of it, but does that matter compared to the effect you have?

No, and anybody not messed up in the head would come to the same conclusion. The whole discussion is silly.
#36
Quote by SlackerBabbath


Yes, you're getting something out of it, but does that matter compared to the effect you have?

I am not saying that the personal gain you get can't outway the great benefits. I am not making a case against altruism. I am just saying that whenever I do something good for someone I also feel better.
Quote by Carmel
I can't believe you are whoring yourself out like that.

ಠ_ಠ
#37
Quote by Eastwinn
allow me to provide the classic counter example.

you're in a foxhole with your fellow soldiers and a grenade lands just on the fringe of it. out of instinct, you jump on the grenade to protect your buds. there is no time to enjoy some sort of moral joy, you're too busy being dead, and jumping on the grenade was not motivated by operant or any higher level learning, it was impulse.



I watched mythbusters and know all of us are dead/injured no matter what.


And yes people do it because it makes them feel better about themselves. But that's not bad or anything, just true.
Last edited by Wormholes at May 26, 2014,
#38
True altruism can't exist. No one can be entirely selfless all the time for all the reasons people have stated. Having said that, standards for altruism have been lowered to attainable human standards. Many devout Buddhists could be described as altruistic. In rehab, I was told that I'm altruistic, but I think that's just my depression. I like to think I'd jump on a grenade for my mates, but again my selflessness is probably a reflection of my own misery and self-hatred. I'd just hope I could think wherever that grenade sends me.
#39
Didn't Scrubs cover this?

Like I know we're trying to have meaningful discussion but

scrubs
Quote by EndTheRapture51
who pays five hundred fucking dollars for a burger
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