#1
Hi, I've tried a lot of configurations and want to try a digital rig..

Are there other ways of using this rig without an amp head? (As in a PA speaker or one of those guitar preamp racks?)

I have one of those 4x12 Marshall 1960a vintage cabs but I don't want to use my 30th anniversary head as its a pain in the ass and has too many tubes.. Can I get away with one of those flat rectangular power amps on top the cab or is that just stupid?

Also, how much does a tube amp matter with a digital rig as the whole point of the tube is to maximize its output to get that vintage sound.
#2
Quote by J_red25
Can I get away with one of those flat rectangular power amps on top the cab or is that just stupid?
That's smarter than most people ideas.
Yeah, you can get away with that indeed.

If you wanna go straight to a PA system you don't need anything more than a couple cables plugged into the PA system console or even directly into the speakers and in the L/R outs of the pod.

If you wanna use your guitar cab just get a power amp.
The yamaha P2500S is big and nice and relatively cheap.
The Carvin TS100 is smaller, nice, and relatively expensive - though it has tubes in it.

Quote by J_red25
Also, how much does a tube amp matter with a digital rig
Not much in my opinion, but it's kind of a matter of preference.
If it sounds good to me, I don't really care if it's tube or solid state, and I've found lotsa solid state PA amps that sound as good as some tube ones for less money.
In short, I don't think the money is worth the improvement.
Quote by J_red25
the whole point of the tube is to maximize its output to get that vintage sound.
This though I have to strongly disagree on.

First of all that "vintage sound" mostly comes from marketing, and the part that comes from the actual sound doesn't have anything to do with "maximizing the output".

Then, tubes are used because they can indeed sound better than transistors, but it's not like a tube amp will always give you a vintage sound.
It's more of a matter of amp design than of tubes, really.
It's not like tubes don't help but they don't play that big of a part.
Name's Luca.

Quote by OliOsbourne
I don't know anything about this topic, but I just clicked on this thread because of your username :O
Quote by Cajundaddy
Clue: amplifiers amplify so don't turn it on if you need quiet.
Quote by chrismendiola
I guess spambots are now capable of reading minds.
#3
You can definitely use a rack mount style power amp into a guitar cab. Works great. If you really want to cheap out you can just pick up an old stereo receiver off CL and drive your cab. Really isn't much difference between one of those power amps and a stereo except for the watts.
#4
Ok so at the end of the day, am I better off with a power amp with my cab or a regular amp head? (w/HD500 of course)

I personally like the idea of the power amp because it seems easier but now some rep from guitar center was trying to tell me that the HD500 doesn't have great clean tone control and i'd be "safer with an amp head to have an extra set of eq's" Is this g center nonsense??


Also thanks for replies guys
#5
Quote by J_red25
Ok so at the end of the day, am I better off with a power amp with my cab or a regular amp head? (w/HD500 of course)

I personally like the idea of the power amp because it seems easier but now some rep from guitar center was trying to tell me that the HD500 doesn't have great clean tone control and i'd be "safer with an amp head to have an extra set of eq's" Is this g center nonsense??


Also thanks for replies guys

Pure nonsense. You can get great cleans out of an HD500.
#6
Quote by GS LEAD 5
Pure nonsense. You can get great cleans out of an HD500.


Eh. The cleans are alright in the HD series. After going to my Eleven Rack they started to sound...Flat? Thin maybe? You can get some really cool ambient stuff out of it to mask it though.

But yes, POD HD through power amp, a-ok.
#7
So if I have a Marshall 1960a 300w cab, do I want to match the wattage of the power amp? I forget if lower or higher would damage the speakers.
#8
Quote by J_red25
Ok so at the end of the day, am I better off with a power amp with my cab or a regular amp head? (w/HD500 of course)
The HD500 is hella more convenient, though you may prefer the sound of an actual guitar amp.
This decision is only up to you, really.
Quote by J_red25
I personally like the idea of the power amp because it seems easier but now some rep from guitar center was trying to tell me that the HD500 doesn't have great clean tone control and i'd be "safer with an amp head to have an extra set of eq's" Is this g center nonsense??
They'll try to sell you the most expensive stuff.
HD500s are not really as costly as most good amp heads so, here you have your answer...
Quote by J_red25
So if I have a Marshall 1960a 300w cab, do I want to match the wattage of the power amp? I forget if lower or higher would damage the speakers.
More power will damage the speaker.
Guitar cabs are usually mic'd though, so even if you get a bigger amp, you are likely not to break anything if you use a bit of care and judgement.
Name's Luca.

Quote by OliOsbourne
I don't know anything about this topic, but I just clicked on this thread because of your username :O
Quote by Cajundaddy
Clue: amplifiers amplify so don't turn it on if you need quiet.
Quote by chrismendiola
I guess spambots are now capable of reading minds.
#9
Quote by J_red25
So if I have a Marshall 1960a 300w cab, do I want to match the wattage of the power amp? I forget if lower or higher would damage the speakers.
Either way you can damage the speakers. An underpowered amp driven into clipping can generate much more than it's rated power. If you want it loud then make sure you get an amp that is rated at least as high as your speakers. If you are conservative with the volume and can tell when your amp is being overdriven then you can go lower with the amp rating
#10
Quote by J_red25
Hi, I've tried a lot of configurations and want to try a digital rig..

Are there other ways of using this rig without an amp head? (As in a PA speaker or one of those guitar preamp racks?)

I have one of those 4x12 Marshall 1960a vintage cabs but I don't want to use my 30th anniversary head as its a pain in the ass and has too many tubes.. Can I get away with one of those flat rectangular power amps on top the cab or is that just stupid?

Also, how much does a tube amp matter with a digital rig as the whole point of the tube is to maximize its output to get that vintage sound.


First, toss the 4x12. No, seriously -- it's not a help. I've got four 4x12s (and their associated tube heads) in storage.

The cleanest way to go about this is to run the Pod HD/ HD500 through a full range powered speaker or through a power amp and from there through a passive full range speaker.

I run the Pod through, variously (depending on how much noise I need), a good set of studio headphones, a pair of KRK Rokit 8 recording monitors (about 100W each, but designed for nearfield use), a Carvin HD1500 or DCM1540L power amp (the flat rack-mount kind) and from there into a pair of fEARless F115s (google is your friend) or direct into a good PA system. Nowhere in there do you see a "guitar" amp or cabinet.

The reason is simple. The Pod provides amp and cabinet modeling, and if you run things through an already colored (and very limited) 4x12, you turn modeling into muddling.

Here's a suggestion: the Carvin HD1500 (9 lbs, $299, up to 1400W) mated to the Carvin LS1503 speaker cabinet ($279, will handle up to 800W). The HD1500 run in bridged, mono mode at 8 ohms (the LS1503 is an 8 ohm cabinet) will put out 800W. Match!

http://www.carvinguitars.com/products/LS1503
http://www.carvinguitars.com/hdseries/

The Carvin speaker cabinet will run from 52Hz to about 18Khz within a plus or minus 3 dB range. A 4x12 will run from about 110Hz to maybe 4.5Khz at around a 10 dB range (a set of Vintage 30's will have a nice spike in the 1.5-2Khz range). The 4x12 will beam icepick treble from 500Hz up and, if you're standing off to the side, will fool you into thinking you sound good while your audience is bleeding from the ears. The Carvin hands off frequencies before they begin to beam and provides a wide dispersion (as well as lower lows and airy highs).

The fEARless I use are a bit cleaner, similar in design, but significantly more expensive (around $1200 per cabinet).
#11
Quote by J_red25
some rep from guitar center was trying to tell me that the HD500 doesn't have great clean tone control and i'd be "safer with an amp head to have an extra set of eq's" Is this g center nonsense??


Complete and utter nonsense.
#12
Quote by fly135
Either way you can damage the speakers. An underpowered amp driven into clipping can generate much more than it's rated power. If you want it loud then make sure you get an amp that is rated at least as high as your speakers. If you are conservative with the volume and can tell when your amp is being overdriven then you can go lower with the amp rating


Ummm....unconvinced here. If an underpowered amp can be driven hard enough to damage the speakers (and that doesn't apply to SS amps, only to tubes) then it's also true that a higher wattage amp could be similarly overdriven and also damage the speakers.

As a matter of practicality you will not damage a speaker using an amp that is rated at less than the speaker is rated for.
“Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge.”
Charles Darwin
#13
Quote by Arby911
Ummm....unconvinced here. If an underpowered amp can be driven hard enough to damage the speakers (and that doesn't apply to SS amps, only to tubes) then it's also true that a higher wattage amp could be similarly overdriven and also damage the speakers.

As a matter of practicality you will not damage a speaker using an amp that is rated at less than the speaker is rated for.


First, you CAN damage a speaker using an amp that is rated at less than the speaker is rated for. Power ratings are convenient for manufacturers (and usually mythical). For continuous music input, a speaker power rating is nothing more than a measure of the speaker's ability to dissipate heat (90% of an amp's output is wasted as heat).

But particularly where bottom end is concerned, it's entirely possible to drive a speaker in an improperly designed cabinet beyond its voice coil Vmax limits, even if you're using wattage ratings that match one another.
#14
Quote by dspellman
First, you CAN damage a speaker using an amp that is rated at less than the speaker is rated for. Power ratings are convenient for manufacturers (and usually mythical). For continuous music input, a speaker power rating is nothing more than a measure of the speaker's ability to dissipate heat (90% of an amp's output is wasted as heat).

But particularly where bottom end is concerned, it's entirely possible to drive a speaker in an improperly designed cabinet beyond its voice coil Vmax limits, even if you're using wattage ratings that match one another.


Just checking, are you now lecturing me on the technical aspects of audio?

I'd just like to be clear before I continue...
“Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge.”
Charles Darwin
#15
Quote by Arby911
and that doesn't apply to SS amps, only to tubes
Pretty sure we are talking about SS amps. The rack mount SS power amps.
#16
Quote by Arby911
Just checking, are you now lecturing me on the technical aspects of audio?

I'd just like to be clear before I continue...



Just checking, are you simply looking for a pissing contest on this? I'm not.

If so, I suggest that you take it up with Alex Claber over at Barefacedbass.com, Dave Green (who designs fEARless and FEARful cabinets, along with Crazy 8s), Duke Le Jeune (AudioKinesis Cabs) and the kind folks at Eminence. If anyone else wants to watch when/if Arby911 unzips and takes these guys on, I'll be front row center with the big box of popcorn.

I'm not lecturing anyone; my posts are informational and not aimed at anyone personally.

All that aside, I agree with you that "as a matter of practicality" you'll generally be fine if you stay within the recommended wattage limits where most guitar speakers are concerned. With a lot of the drop tuning maniacs showing up with 30" scales and 8, 9 and 10-string guitars invading bass guitar domains, I'm sure you'll agree that in those registers, cabinet design plays a large part in how much power a speaker cabinet can handle. In those ranges, over-excursion is more of an issue than heat dissipation. Here's a skim of the issues: http://www.eminence.com/2010/09/cabinet-recommendations/

Further, when I began to use the more powerful amps necessary to reproduce accurate lows, I became aware of how easy it is to waste power on sub-audible frequencies and how easily a pop at one of those frequencies can damage a speaker, and it was about then that I learned why a solid HPF is good idea both for power conservation and speaker protection.

This is germaine because Pods and other modelers are more frequently being hooked up to full-range speaker systems, and because accurate reproduction in these speaker systems frequently pairs them with 1000W (and up) amplification. Even the small "PA" style powered enclosures (QSC K12s, Atomic Amps' CLR, etc.) are running 1000W apiece.
Last edited by dspellman at May 29, 2014,
#17
Quote by dspellman
Just checking, are you simply looking for a pissing contest on this? I'm not.

If so, I suggest that you take it up with Alex Claber over at Barefacedbass.com, Dave Green (who designs fEARless and FEARful cabinets, along with Crazy 8s), Duke Le Jeune (AudioKinesis Cabs) and the kind folks at Eminence. If anyone else wants to watch when/if Arby911 unzips and takes these guys on, I'll be front row center with the big box of popcorn.

I'm not lecturing anyone; my posts are informational and not aimed at anyone personally.



Gumbi was right.
“Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge.”
Charles Darwin
#19
Quote by SharpSpoon
Eh. The cleans are alright in the HD series. After going to my Eleven Rack they started to sound...Flat? Thin maybe? You can get some really cool ambient stuff out of it to mask it though.

But yes, POD HD through power amp, a-ok.


Well the 11R is a better unit