Sabaton's Heroes. Amazing! Best metal release since Master Of Puppets.

Page 1 of 2
Metalguy5784
Registered User
Join date: Jun 2014
390 IQ
#1
Im 29 years old and I was first introduced to metal by my neighbor at age 13 when he let me borrow Master Of Puppets. I will never forget the goosebumps I got from hearing such a perfect Metal album from start to finish when I first heard Master Of Puppets. Im not a Metallica fanboy but if your a metal fan, you will be hard pressed to find a Metal album on the same level of Puppets.

I can honestly say that while there have been some amazing metal albums to come out over the years from various artists, I never quite got that same feeling as I did that day from a album.. Until the other week when I discovered Sabaton and heard Heroes.

Its almost unreal how good and powerful this album is, instant classic and masterpiece is a good start. I might catch some flak for saying this but I put it right up there at the pinnacle of metal albums. Powerslave, Seasons In the Abyss, Rust In Peace, Master Of Puppets. Heroes is on that same level in my opinion.
HamburgerBoy
Registered User
Join date: Oct 2008
32 IQ
#2
My perception of Sabaton will always be biased because my introduction to them was that Gutter Ballet wannabe song.
The Virtuoso
L'Étranger
Join date: May 2005
3,905 IQ
#3
You really need to listen to more metal if you think metal fans are hard pressed to find something on the same level as MoP.
Quote by Senor Kristian
Viking fact no. 1: Viking helmets did not have horn.
Viking fact no. 2: Vikings tobogganed on their shields into battle.
Viking fact no. 3: Vikings drank mead.
Viking fact no. 4: One of your ancestors are likely to have been raped by a viking.
Helloween4Ever
Keeper of the Seven Keys
Join date: Apr 2008
871 IQ
#5
Quote by HamburgerBoy
My perception of Sabaton will always be biased because my introduction to them was that Gutter Ballet wannabe song.

or the I Want Out wannabe song. hahaha
Quote by NotFromANUS
"Don't brutal your sister, Timmy!"


last.fm
crazysam23_Atax
Feuergesicht
Join date: Oct 2009
5,710 IQ
#7
Do yourself a favor please; check out the first few posts of the rec thread. Yes, MoP is good. But the "best of" in each genre category are probably better.

Metal Rec Thread
Metalguy5784
Registered User
Join date: Jun 2014
390 IQ
#8
Quote by Ziggy V
So after 16 years of being in to metal, you still hold Metallica as the be all, end all of metal? You need to level up.


As a band no, Metallica is pretty much a shell of their former selves, but there is no denying that puppets and justice are the holy grail of metal (among other albums). Im more of a Megadeth guy myself, Endgame is probably some of the best megadeth along with Rust, Countdown and united abominations
Last edited by Metalguy5784 at Jun 8, 2014,
HamburgerBoy
Registered User
Join date: Oct 2008
32 IQ
#10
Master of Puppets is a damn good album. Obviously not everyone is going to hold it in similar esteem as the op, but anyone denying its creativity and influence is wrong, and there really is very little metal of its time, no matter how deep you dive into the underground, that can compete with it on those grounds.
ChemicalFire
King of Bacon Pancakes
Join date: Oct 2007
5,773 IQ
#11
No but underground/semi-underground/non-mainstream album/band/ep/demo that was released in the same year as popular metal album is FAR better!

You guys are false and gay.
All I want is for everyone to go to hell...
...It's the last place I was seen before I lost myself



Quote by DisarmGoliath
You can be the deputy llamma of the recordings forum!
The Virtuoso
L'Étranger
Join date: May 2005
3,905 IQ
#15
Quote by HamburgerBoy
Master of Puppets is a damn good album. Obviously not everyone is going to hold it in similar esteem as the op, but anyone denying its creativity and influence is wrong, and there really is very little metal of its time, no matter how deep you dive into the underground, that can compete with it on those grounds.


Metallica-Master of Puppets 1986

Hmm...

Slayer-Show no Mercy 1983
Slayer-Hell Awaits 1985
Death-Scream Bloody Gore 1987
Coroner-R.I.P. 1987
Dark Angel-Darkness Descends 1986
Bathory-S/T 1984
Bathory-The Return 1985
Celtic Frost-1984
Celtic Frost-To Mega Therion 1985
Hellhammer-Apocalyptic Raids 1984
Kreator-Endless Pain 1985
Kreator-Pleasure to kill 1986
Sodom-In the Sign of Evil 1984
Sodom-Obsessed by Cruelty 1986
Exodus-Bonded by Blood 1985
Sepultura-Schizophrenia 1987
Morbid Angel-Altars of Madness 1989
Possessed-Seven Churches 1985
Candlemass-Epicus Doomicus Metallicus 1986
Manilla Road-Pick an album up to 1986


MoP is a good album. I don't love it as much as I did when I was 14, but to say that it is in a league of its own at the time is just silly. It is definitely influential, and if this is your only criterion for being good, then consider all the pop artists Justin Bieber influences.
Quote by Senor Kristian
Viking fact no. 1: Viking helmets did not have horn.
Viking fact no. 2: Vikings tobogganed on their shields into battle.
Viking fact no. 3: Vikings drank mead.
Viking fact no. 4: One of your ancestors are likely to have been raped by a viking.
BL1NDSIDE-J
Banned
Join date: Dec 2010
1,401 IQ
#16
OP after 16 years you would think that you would have found some good stuff besides Metallica Ziggy is right you need to level the **** up.
HamburgerBoy
Registered User
Join date: Oct 2008
32 IQ
#17
Quote by The Virtuoso
Metallica-Master of Puppets 1986

Hmm...

Slayer-Show no Mercy 1983
Slayer-Hell Awaits 1985
Death-Scream Bloody Gore 1987
Coroner-R.I.P. 1987
Dark Angel-Darkness Descends 1986
Bathory-S/T 1984
Bathory-The Return 1985
Celtic Frost-1984
Celtic Frost-To Mega Therion 1985
Hellhammer-Apocalyptic Raids 1984
Kreator-Endless Pain 1985
Kreator-Pleasure to kill 1986
Sodom-In the Sign of Evil 1984
Sodom-Obsessed by Cruelty 1986
Exodus-Bonded by Blood 1985
Sepultura-Schizophrenia 1987
Morbid Angel-Altars of Madness 1989
Possessed-Seven Churches 1985
Candlemass-Epicus Doomicus Metallicus 1986
Manilla Road-Pick an album up to 1986


MoP is a good album. I don't love it as much as I did when I was 14, but to say that it is in a league of its own at the time is just silly. It is definitely influential, and if this is your only criterion for being good, then consider all the pop artists Justin Bieber influences.


A number of them were fairly unimportant and certainly not nearly as broad in scope as Master of Puppets. Darkness Descends? Excellent album but at best it was just one step in extremity ahead of Slayer. Endless Pain? Dated even for 1985, Petrozza's vocals being the only notable element. RIP? Cool album but again not particularly significant, even in the niche realm of tech-thrash. Schizophrenia? At least pick their earliest death metal material, not their first step towards American thrash. Manilla Road? Basically inconsequential and with some incredibly poor songwriting.

Of course, Puppets didn't kickstart an entire extreme metal movement like Slayer and Hellhammer/Celtic Frost did, so under certain contexts I can definitely admit that it is overrated, but when you look at posters above and some of the albums on that "Best Of Thrash" list, it's just silly underdog-fellating.
The Virtuoso
L'Étranger
Join date: May 2005
3,905 IQ
#18
Quote by HamburgerBoy
A number of them were fairly unimportant and certainly not nearly as broad in scope as Master of Puppets. Darkness Descends? Excellent album but at best it was just one step in extremity ahead of Slayer. Endless Pain? Dated even for 1985, Petrozza's vocals being the only notable element. RIP? Cool album but again not particularly significant, even in the niche realm of tech-thrash. Schizophrenia? At least pick their earliest death metal material, not their first step towards American thrash. Manilla Road? Basically inconsequential and with some incredibly poor songwriting.

Of course, Puppets didn't kickstart an entire extreme metal movement like Slayer and Hellhammer/Celtic Frost did, so under certain contexts I can definitely admit that it is overrated, but when you look at posters above and some of the albums on that "Best Of Thrash" list, it's just silly underdog-fellating.


Are we talking importance or quality? What do you mean by broad in scope? I suppose we could ask ourselves, "what would metal be like today if MoP had not been released?" I don't think we will ever have a satisfactory answer to this question, but I'm guessing we would still have more or less the same quality releases over the years; although, MoP is one of those albums that straddles the line between mainstream and underground, which makes it a good entrance into other genres of metal.

But Hamburger, LOST IN NECROPOLIS!!!!!!

I'm not going to hate on Metallica, although I do hate people who think MoP is the pinnacle of metal; nonetheless, give me No More Color or By Inheritance any day over MoP.
Quote by Senor Kristian
Viking fact no. 1: Viking helmets did not have horn.
Viking fact no. 2: Vikings tobogganed on their shields into battle.
Viking fact no. 3: Vikings drank mead.
Viking fact no. 4: One of your ancestors are likely to have been raped by a viking.
Kepulix
The Witchfinder
Join date: May 2006
1,413 IQ
#19
Quote by HamburgerBoy
Manilla Road? Basically inconsequential and with some incredibly poor songwriting.
Preposterous heresy.
I’m not the man I used to be, I... I can’t go back to Arkham.

I... I should return to Arkham.


Among the churchyard’s mouldering stones I recognise a name – my own.
I have come home to Arkham.

crazysam23_Atax
Feuergesicht
Join date: Oct 2009
5,710 IQ
#20
Quote by HamburgerBoy
A number of them were fairly unimportant and certainly not nearly as broad in scope as Master of Puppets.

Wow...
eazy-c
Angus McHighlands
Join date: Dec 2006
559 IQ
#21
Quote by crazysam23_Atax
Wow...


Care to elaborate on your condesencion?

Given that (pretty much) no one here was contemporary to Master of Puppets, it's pretty hard to gauge just how influential it was; but given it's commercial success and the relative inaccessability of underground metal at the time I can't see any other thrash albums having the same impact.
Quote by ChemicalFire
The point of underground bands is their not popular or famous most of the time. Thus there is a good chance they suck.
ChemicalFire
King of Bacon Pancakes
Join date: Oct 2007
5,773 IQ
#23
Quote by eazy-c
Care to elaborate on your condesencion?

Given that (pretty much) no one here was contemporary to Master of Puppets, it's pretty hard to gauge just how influential it was; but given it's commercial success and the relative inaccessability of underground metal at the time I can't see any other thrash albums having the same impact.


Finally someone posts sense.

This thread reeks of elitism for the sake of it. OH LOL YOU LIKE MASTER OF PUPPETS LOL AT YOU.

I mean come on guys, sure it's a widely accepted album, but that doesn't stop it being good and BECAUSE of it's wide appeal, important for the metal scene.
All I want is for everyone to go to hell...
...It's the last place I was seen before I lost myself



Quote by DisarmGoliath
You can be the deputy llamma of the recordings forum!
Last edited by ChemicalFire at Jun 9, 2014,
The Wildchild
COME TO INDONESIA!!!!!!!!
Join date: Aug 2007
3,282 IQ
#24
Orion was a great track
lstfm

I'm a Nazi, baby
I'm a Nazi, yes I am
I'm a Nazi schatzi, you know I'll fight for the Fatherland
Scourge441
Eyes With Pride
Join date: Jun 2004
5,346 IQ
#25
Quote by HamburgerBoy
A number of them were fairly unimportant and certainly not nearly as broad in scope as Master of Puppets. Darkness Descends? Excellent album but at best it was just one step in extremity ahead of Slayer. Endless Pain? Dated even for 1985, Petrozza's vocals being the only notable element. RIP? Cool album but again not particularly significant, even in the niche realm of tech-thrash. Schizophrenia? At least pick their earliest death metal material, not their first step towards American thrash. Manilla Road? Basically inconsequential and with some incredibly poor songwriting.

Of course, Puppets didn't kickstart an entire extreme metal movement like Slayer and Hellhammer/Celtic Frost did, so under certain contexts I can definitely admit that it is overrated, but when you look at posters above and some of the albums on that "Best Of Thrash" list, it's just silly underdog-fellating.

You're really using popularity as a criteria for judging these releases? You're basically arguing that Master of Puppets is the be-all-end-all of the genre because it's famous and hordes of crap bands like FFDP and Trivium and Avenged Sevenfold sing its praises, while highly creative and original albums like Awaken the Guardian or Crimson Glory's self-titled (both of which were released around the same time) are on a lower level simply because they didn't get the exposure or because there are less people capable of emulating them. Otherwise you wouldn't be arguing that Manilla Road are "inconsequential" in the face of the wide swath of bands that cite them as an influence and the respect that their recent releases get (something that has eluded Metallica for going on 30 years).

I love Master of Puppets, but you are wildly overstating how "creative" it actually is. Thrash - and heavy metal in general - was already well beyond that point when it came out, and negating the work of bands that actually pushed boundaries because they didn't reach as many people is juvenile. The only thing on Master of Puppets that I would consider truly unique is Orion - the rest is well-written, sure, but in what ways did Battery or Leper Messiah really change the game for thrash metal or the genre as a whole?
ChemicalFire
King of Bacon Pancakes
Join date: Oct 2007
5,773 IQ
#26
But surely the "importance" on a wider influence scale of the less popular bands is well... less simply because of the logic of not as many people knowing about them.

Doesn't mean they weren't better than Metallica and MoP but their influence surely can't be argued to be as great simply based on the numbers?
All I want is for everyone to go to hell...
...It's the last place I was seen before I lost myself



Quote by DisarmGoliath
You can be the deputy llamma of the recordings forum!
VampireGoldfish
Suddenly...
Join date: Feb 2007
3,618 IQ
#27
Quote by eazy-c

Given that (pretty much) no one here was contemporary to Master of Puppets,


cough cough
A heathen, conceivably
but not,

I hope,
I’m not ashamed to be white
Vi doede ikke... vi har aldri levd
Barbarism is the natural state of mankind
Civilization is unnatural

It is a whim of circumstance
an unenlightened one
VampireGoldfish
Suddenly...
Join date: Feb 2007
3,618 IQ
#28
Most relevant post is Scourge.
A heathen, conceivably
but not,

I hope,
I’m not ashamed to be white
Vi doede ikke... vi har aldri levd
Barbarism is the natural state of mankind
Civilization is unnatural

It is a whim of circumstance
an unenlightened one
The Virtuoso
L'Étranger
Join date: May 2005
3,905 IQ
#29
Quote by Scourge441
You're really using popularity as a criteria for judging these releases? You're basically arguing that Master of Puppets is the be-all-end-all of the genre because it's famous and hordes of crap bands like FFDP and Trivium and Avenged Sevenfold sing its praises, while highly creative and original albums like Awaken the Guardian or Crimson Glory's self-titled (both of which were released around the same time) are on a lower level simply because they didn't get the exposure or because there are less people capable of emulating them. Otherwise you wouldn't be arguing that Manilla Road are "inconsequential" in the face of the wide swath of bands that cite them as an influence and the respect that their recent releases get (something that has eluded Metallica for going on 30 years).

I love Master of Puppets, but you are wildly overstating how "creative" it actually is. Thrash - and heavy metal in general - was already well beyond that point when it came out, and negating the work of bands that actually pushed boundaries because they didn't reach as many people is juvenile. The only thing on Master of Puppets that I would consider truly unique is Orion - the rest is well-written, sure, but in what ways did Battery or Leper Messiah really change the game for thrash metal or the genre as a whole?


Scourge, you posted more or less what I wanted to say. I'm just going to refer to you from now on.
Quote by Senor Kristian
Viking fact no. 1: Viking helmets did not have horn.
Viking fact no. 2: Vikings tobogganed on their shields into battle.
Viking fact no. 3: Vikings drank mead.
Viking fact no. 4: One of your ancestors are likely to have been raped by a viking.
romencer17
Take it easy, but take it
Join date: Sep 2006
1,928 IQ
#30
Quote by HamburgerBoy
Manilla Road? Basically inconsequential and with some incredibly poor songwriting.


oof, you cut me deep.


why all the cries of "elitism!"? i haven't seen anyone flat out say they think MoP is terrible because it's Metallica and popular. everyone just seems to be saying that it's not the greatest of all, because ya know... it really isn't.
Free your mind and your ass will follow
The kingdom of heaven is within
Open up your funky mind and you can fly

Sumdeus
Last edited by romencer17 at Jun 9, 2014,
crazysam23_Atax
Feuergesicht
Join date: Oct 2009
5,710 IQ
#31
Quote by ChemicalFire
Finally someone posts sense.

This thread reeks of elitism for the sake of it. OH LOL YOU LIKE MASTER OF PUPPETS LOL AT YOU.

I mean come on guys, sure it's a widely accepted album, but that doesn't stop it being good and BECAUSE of it's wide appeal, important for the metal scene.

But no one's saying MoP was bad. It's good and did have some influence. But to say it's the "be-all-end-all" for Metal is kind of like saying that the Chrystler Town and Country is the "be-all-end-all" for minivans.
Yeah, Town and Country is a good car, and a lot of people like it. It has some great features. But there's other cars that are excellent too.
eazy-c
Angus McHighlands
Join date: Dec 2006
559 IQ
#32
It might've not been particularly innovative within the metal-sphere, but it was within a wider popular music context; which it operated in, unlike every other release discussed here. Surely that sort of boundary-pushing is just as important as anything musical? As alternative to Bon Jovi, it's pretty fucking mindblowing stuff.

Although, by this thought-process, I'd argue The Black Album is far more important (and better).
Quote by ChemicalFire
The point of underground bands is their not popular or famous most of the time. Thus there is a good chance they suck.
romencer17
Take it easy, but take it
Join date: Sep 2006
1,928 IQ
#33
Quote by eazy-c
It might've not been particularly innovative within the metal-sphere


and that's the point. OP called it a perfect metal album. it is not. that's really all there is to it.
Free your mind and your ass will follow
The kingdom of heaven is within
Open up your funky mind and you can fly

Sumdeus
Ironic Maiden
Holes instead of eyes
Join date: Jul 2010
1,303 IQ
#34
I mean would I be wrong in thinking that Slayer had a much more lasting impact on the Metal scene anyway?

I mean when I hear bands influences I don't often hear Metallica outside of fagcore bands. I always hear Slayer
eazy-c
Angus McHighlands
Join date: Dec 2006
559 IQ
#35
Who gives a shit about what OP had to say? I thought we had moved on.

EDIT: ^ Are Metallica not pretty much everyone's gateway to Slayer though?
Quote by ChemicalFire
The point of underground bands is their not popular or famous most of the time. Thus there is a good chance they suck.
Last edited by eazy-c at Jun 9, 2014,
romencer17
Take it easy, but take it
Join date: Sep 2006
1,928 IQ
#36
Quote by eazy-c
Who gives a shit about what OP had to say? I thought we had moved on.


no, this is still the same thread and that is what was being discussed...
Free your mind and your ass will follow
The kingdom of heaven is within
Open up your funky mind and you can fly

Sumdeus
eazy-c
Angus McHighlands
Join date: Dec 2006
559 IQ
#37
Shouldn't we get back to Sabaton then?
Quote by ChemicalFire
The point of underground bands is their not popular or famous most of the time. Thus there is a good chance they suck.
romencer17
Take it easy, but take it
Join date: Sep 2006
1,928 IQ
#38
sure but no one seems to care about them. The OP was mostly about how MoP is the best metal album ever which is why that has been the main point discussed.

I really don't get why I am explaining this to you right now as you can read just as well as I can.
Free your mind and your ass will follow
The kingdom of heaven is within
Open up your funky mind and you can fly

Sumdeus
eazy-c
Angus McHighlands
Join date: Dec 2006
559 IQ
#39
That's because they're a bit shit.
Quote by ChemicalFire
The point of underground bands is their not popular or famous most of the time. Thus there is a good chance they suck.