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#1
What is up with all the complex music praise among musicians? Most of the time the music sounds like crap. Why is easy to play music frowned upon? I don't find my playing has to be fast to impress someone.

Everyone reads the articles on how to be a fast player.

If you play a fast solo everyone gets so impressed. Im also talking about the lightning fast guitar solos that are just scales played really fast ascending and descending. What is your view on this?
Last edited by Rensa at Jul 6, 2014,
#2
If you play a fast solo everyone gets so impressed. Im also talking about the lightning fast guitar solos that are just scales played really fast ascending and descending. What is your view on this?

yeah super fast scales or an albert king three note riff...ill take albert
#3
I agree, to some extent.

Speed is irrelevant, that is true. I couldn´t care less if i was playing 1 note or 100 notes, if it fits the context and sounds good, then it is good, regardless of how many notes you play.

I agree some players strive for fast playing to impress people, and i think that is stupid. But i don´t think complex music is overrated, cause if you think about it, it is only a very small percentage of the listening audience that listens to so called "complex" music. The bigger audience is off listening what most people on here would label "easy" music, like arena rock bands or pop acts. Complexity is defiantly overrated among guitarists, but if you look at the music industry as a whole it isn´t.

Personally, i would just stop thinking about it. To me, Dream Theater is not better than John Mayer, they are different. Jazz is not better than pop, it´s different. I prefer certain styles and artists over others, but that doesn´t mean those are better. The same thing applies to the playing aspect. To me, fast playing is not better than slow playing, it´s different. Jeff Beck is not better or worse than Michael Angelo Batio or Guthrie Govan or whoever, they are different, and people need to stop mistaking personal opinion for fact and stop thinking music is a form of competition or status thing, cause it isn´t.

That is my opinion, although i probably could of expressed it better. That is what happens when you are not a native english speaker.

Best Regards,
Sickz.
Fusion and jazz musician, a fan of most music.

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Last edited by Sickz at Jun 28, 2014,
#4
1) Playing fast =/= complex music.
2) Counter-question: Why is playing simplistic music praised so much? A very common phrase is "Less is more". Why is that?
3) Regardless of what type of music you play and/or compose, you shouldn't be playing/writing to impress others.
Last edited by crazysam23_Atax at Jun 28, 2014,
#5
"Recently". Sure. People have different tastes. Some people like Yngwie, some people like Meshuggah, some people like B.B. King, some people like all three and everything in between. It's all a matter of taste and it's not worth arguing about. And making objective statements based on your entirely subjective opinion, such as "the music sounds like crap" is a terrible idea in all contexts.

As far as being able to play fast is concerned, my immediate aim as a learning guitarist is to be able to play any piece I want to play or write. It makes sense for me, therefore, and most people with similar aspirations, to practice fast playing in order to be able to play fast when we want to. Most people don't want to shred all the time, but for a metal guitarist if you can play, say, Rising Force or whatever it's a pretty sure indication that you're a relatively proficient musician.

I recommend you listen to more music of varying complexity to cure your apparent ignorance on the subject.

Quote by crazysam23_Atax
Regardless of what type of music you play and/or compose, you shouldn't be playing/writing to impress others.

You should play for whatever reason makes you wanna play, regardless of whether people think it's "shallow" or "wrong". If you wanna play, play.
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Last edited by K33nbl4d3 at Jun 28, 2014,
#6
Quote by K33nbl4d3
You should play for whatever reason makes you wanna play, regardless of whether people think it's "shallow" or "wrong". If you wanna play, play.

That's my whole point, yeah.
#8
"how can less be more, it's impossible, more is more'" - Yngwie J. Malmsteen.
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#9
Didn't read everything, but if by complex you mean shred guitar with all the Animals as Leaders/ Meshuggah type of bands, you need to realize that no one cares about how many clean notes per second the guitarist can pick or how complex some sweep picking lick is except other beginning guitar players easily impressed by those kind of technical pyrotechnics.

Maybe shred guitar is overrated among the guitar players community, but to the general public, guitar wankery doesn't have any musical appeal and fast guitar solos don't really impress anyone who has already been a little exposed to guitar players like EVH or any other 80s hard rock guitar player
Last edited by SuperKid at Jun 28, 2014,
#10
speed is usefull for dynamics but playing fast all the time isnt good imo.
#11

Speed is irrelevant, that is true. I couldn´t care less if i was playing 1 note or 100 notes, if it fits the context and sounds good, then it is good, regardless of how many notes you play.

I agree some players strive for fast playing to impress people, and i think that is stupid. But i don´t think complex music is overrated, cause if you think about it, it is only a very small percentage of the listening audience that listens to so called "complex" music. The bigger audience is off listening what most people on here would label "easy" music, like arena rock bands or pop acts. Complexity is defiantly overrated among guitarists, but if you look at the music industry as a whole it isn´t.

Personally, i would just stop thinking about it. To me, Dream Theater is not better than John Mayer, they are different. Jazz is not better than pop, it´s different. I prefer certain styles and artists over others, but that doesn´t mean those are better. The same thing applies to the playing aspect. To me, fast playing is not better than slow playing, it´s different. Jeff Beck is not better or worse than Michael Angelo Batio or Guthrie Govan or whoever, they are different, and people need to stop mistaking personal opinion for fact and stop thinking music is a form of competition or status thing, cause it isn´t.


+1

Quote by K33nbl4d3

You should play for whatever reason makes you wanna play, regardless of whether people think it's "shallow" or "wrong". If you wanna play, play.


+1
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#13
I stopped being impressed with speed when I grew up.

Soloing with chords is far nicer to listen to and a lot more complex to do well than listening to some skinny acne ridden kid who locks himself in his room all day playing scales up and down really fast.
Last edited by macashmack at Jun 28, 2014,
#14
I know a guy who knows a guy who complains about complex music in UG because he can't play in 7/8...just joking

Still, this guy mistakes "complex" with "fast", and the guy probably can't appreciate anything beyond EDM
Last edited by blackone666 at Jun 28, 2014,
#15
If everyone thought like you do, music would never advance or would never have advanced anywhere. It just boggles my mind how people never get tired of the same songs being made over and over in pop music.

And yeah, like people in this thread have already mentioned, playing fast doesn't mean it's complex. Often it's the other way around. Playing the natural minor scale up and down over 9000 notes per second is not impressive in the slightest.
Last edited by Elintasokas at Jun 28, 2014,
#16
Thanks for all the replies I mistakenly mixed speed and complexity and i mean easy to play music to be frowned upon musicians. You helped me understand it a bit better, it's just personal taste. No hate on complex music
Last edited by Rensa at Jun 28, 2014,
#17
Playing fast has it's place in guitar composed music I think it adds a lot of dynamics to the music being composed if it's done in small bursts of speed. Other than that as soon as I hear someone just shredding away for 2 minutes straight I just exit the browser or walk out the room.. I think it's great from a technical stand point, but musically not really either way I think it can be done right if it's needed to fit within the song being created. I think the chase for speed overall is really overrated, and pointless but it's up to the individuals goal as to what they want to be able to do on "said" instrument.


I have a lot of speed drills where I'll play scales at a set BPM with sixteenth notes or sextuplets, but other than that when I improvise I tend to actually play at a medium pace it's good to have some pauses, but I love to throw in some fast runs just because of the fact that it adds dynamics, but I don't do it 24/7 because it does get old..

Only super young kids are typically after the chase for speed, but as they get older they tend to realize that it's entirely pointless and that they should focus on the musical side of the instrument more than the technical side of learning to play an instrument, but as I've stated above speed has it's place in guitar composed music.

Last edited by Black_devils at Jun 28, 2014,
#18
my view on this is that the people who are most vocal with this particular viewpoint are often incapable of playing fast
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#19
I should probably add that I personally like speed, at least when done well and when not done to the exclusion of the thing sounding musical.
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Quote by K33nbl4d3
I'll have to put the Classic T models on my to-try list. Shame the finish options there are Anachronism Gold, Nuclear Waste and Aged Clown, because in principle the plaintop is right up my alley.

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Presumably because the CCF (Combined Corksniffing Forces) of MLP and Gibson forums would rise up against them, plunging the land into war.

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Et tu, br00tz?
#20
Quote by vIsIbleNoIsE
my view on this is that the people who are most vocal with this particular viewpoint are often incapable of playing fast

Such a childish sentiment.

"You only don't like it because you can't do it!" (Runs off to his room to continue running his scales up and down a thousand times like a loser).
Last edited by macashmack at Jun 28, 2014,
#21
Quote by Dave_Mc
I should probably add that I personally like speed, at least when done well and when not done to the exclusion of the thing sounding musical.


I would tend to agree, but i don't like things for the speeds sake. It's the musical aspect that determines if somethings good. It's like having a car, i like having a car cause i can take myself from one place to another faster, but without fuel it doesn't matter if i have car or not. It's nice to have speed, but if i don't have anything interesting to say musically it doesn't matter.
Fusion and jazz musician, a fan of most music.

Quote by Guthrie Govan
“If you steal from one person it's theft, and if you steal from lots of people it's research”


Quote by Chick Corea
"Only play what you hear. If you don't hear anything, don't play anything."
#22
Quote by macashmack
Such a childish sentiment.

"You only don't like it because you can't do it!" (Runs off to his room to continue running his scales up and down a thousand times like a loser).


you are unfairly insinuating that i think playing fast is something really awesome and desirable in itself, when i never actually said anything to suggest that. in fact, i agree with what you and almost everyone else said, and was only pointing out that it's childish to complain like in the OP.
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#23
<opinion>Can't get myself to like speed. Maybe my brain can't properly process too many notes in a small period of time.

Complex does not mean fast though, there are awesome complex songs out there, but of course there are also songs in which you can notice all the composer was doing was trying to get the most complex thing out of his/her brain and the song sounds like a chemical mess. As so there are simple songs that also sound a mess. <opinion>

You know, music is music, a bunch of sound waves that hit your ears and make you think "that's art", there's no thing such as "a sound is good" or "a sound is bad" it's all about if those sound waves make you feel good when they're processed by your brain.
#24
OP: I can tell you may be getting distracted, a big mistake which can lead one to pursue certain musical goals that they became led into. Music has so much to offer in so many different styles. If you do not like the sound of a particular style or do not understand it...there is absolutely nothing wrong with that, just find something you like. Perhaps you like the more singable pieces...which is what many people can relate to.

When you start getting into complex time sig and key changes the music starts to lose a lot of people, except the ones who understand it though of course. Musicians of complexity tend to have a more trained ear in that particular style, assuming.

Then again complexity is pretty subjective. Perhaps hearing rhythms and time sig changes sounds complex...but can be worlds apart from composing in the style of strict counterpoint. Two different aspects of music, but still gives you the idea.
Last edited by Unreal T at Jun 28, 2014,
#25
I didn't read most of this I'm sure this has probably been said but I find that a huge number of riffs that I enjoy are usually pretty simple. Maybe I'm just a simpleton but most "complex" stuff I hear just seems like distasteful wankery.
#26
I'm going to try and not beat a dead horse here and say that everyone on this thread should get off and go practice some guitar. At the end of the day, as guitarists we want the ability to play with variation. Speed plays a part in that just as much as playing in time does. When it comes to complexity, well that is hardly the guitarists own doing (well maybe it is) Either way, complex music comes from a composer. Fast music comes from a drummer and guitar masturbation is done by a guitarist. The bassist normally just chills
#27
Quote by vIsIbleNoIsE
you are unfairly insinuating that i think playing fast is something really awesome and desirable in itself, when i never actually said anything to suggest that. in fact, i agree with what you and almost everyone else said, and was only pointing out that it's childish to complain like in the OP.

You're right I'm sorry.
#28
I have a love as a fan of some great lead guitarists but I am not inclined or have the drive to play fast like them,I'm more interested in making up songs,the fast stuff is great but not a given,I dabble in a little lead and it's more basic blues stuff,can sound great when done rigt
#29
I agree that complex music is many times praised as "good music" and to lot of people (at least who post comments in the internet) simple music is "bad music". I enjoy both, depending on my mood. I don't always enjoy listening to stuff like Dream Theater. Even the simplest mainstream pop songs have their time and place. Most of the time I like listening to something in between complex and simple (yeah, I know, a stupid description). I mean, stuff that has many different sections but is not too progressive. Def Leppard is a good example - it is very well written pop/rock music (though it's not my favorite band but it's just a good example). They have clearly spent a lot of time to write the songs. They have not settled for the most basic stuff. They use lots of key changes and their song structures are interesting. But they still sound pretty "simple".

Sometimes if the music sounds complex, it starts annoying me. Like the band is just trying to make their music as technical as possible. I do enjoy some calssical music which is pretty complex. But it is complex in a different way than Dream Theater is. Maybe "technical" is the right term. I don't like music that sounds technical. It can be technical but if you can make technical parts sound easy, it is great. being technical and sounding technical are two different things and I think sounding technical is only a bad thing.

Sometimes I enjoy the simplicity of bands like AC/DC and such. They have their own thing that I like.

Quote by crazysam23_Atax
1) Playing fast =/= complex music.
2) Counter-question: Why is playing simplistic music praised so much? A very common phrase is "Less is more". Why is that?
3) Regardless of what type of music you play and/or compose, you shouldn't be playing/writing to impress others.

I agree with 1 and 3.

2) It's not praising simplistic music. It's praising people who know when to play and when not to play. It's a notification to people who overplay that they don't need to play all the time. (At least that's how I see the phrase). And also it makes you think. Maybe I could have the same effect with less notes? It's all about the "space" in music. IMO music has to have some space in it. It shouldn't be overloaded with parts played at the same time. It means that rests are as important in music as every other note. Not every instrument needs to do their own thing all the time. There is cool stuff like unisonos. Also, not every instrument needs to play all the time. If everybody plays whatever they feel like, their music sounds like a mess.

That's what the phrase means to me. To somebody else it may mean something else.

You can make a complex song sound more listenable by following that phrase. Throw away all the technical wankery. As I said, complex music can be made sound very listenable. I used Def Leppard as an example (yeah, they are not that complex but again, they have really spent time in songwriting - and they are more complex than your average rock or pop songs).
Quote by AlanHB
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Last edited by MaggaraMarine at Jun 29, 2014,
#30
Quote by Rensa
What is up with all the complex music praise? Most of the time the music sounds like crap. Why is easy to play music frowned upon? I don't find my playing has to be fast to impress someone.

Everyone reads the articles on how to be a fast player.

If you play a fast solo everyone gets so impressed. Im also talking about the lightning fast guitar solos that are just scales played really fast ascending and descending. What is your view on this?


I agree with you, there is no use cranking out 10's of note per second that anyways aren't possible to hear, other than telling other people that it could be done.

The motive would perhaps be to impress people. And maybe that some musicians feel that they've maxed all musical abilitties, except playing really fast. When they got all the rythms, melodies and such perhaps it becomes natural trying to do the same thing but faster.

Historically fast playing must have emerged because the whole guitar genre was maxed out. In the 80's basically already had already been done on a guitar, except developing extreme speed and complexity. And it's always funnier to do something that hasn't been done already.
#31
I'm just gonna come out and say that I actually hate the sound of slow, melodic guitar playing. It's like nails on a chalkboard for me, I'd take an unbelievably fast player over a melodic player any day. I don't understand why guitar players moan so much about speed, it's not like guitar was the first instrument to be played fast. You wouldn't say 'Oh, that Beethoven, needs to put less notes in the third movement on Moonlight Sonata, it has no soul, maaan.' or 'Lols, I'd take three slow vibrato notes from Andrew Rieu's violin over a note perfect performance of one of Paganini's 24 caprices.' It's just not done, and whoever would do it would instantly show themselves to know nothing about music.

To me, less is more is just one of them phrases that makes them think they can put up a credible argument for Slash being better than Jani Liimatainen, for example, and that's just wrong, if we're going to be honest with ourselves here.
#32
I don't get why the concept of "to each his own" is so difficult for people to grasp. Some people prefer melodic playing, some people prefer shred, some people prefer something in between and so forth. A guitarist should work to become able to play everything they want to play and play it well. That may or may not include fast stuff. Personally I think a fast passage can be used really well even in a slow, melodic solo, as long as it fits in properly. Likewise complex or unusual rhythms and time signatures can work well musically (Whipping Post, anyone?).

Can Michael Angelo Batio play faster, harder things than B.B. King? Absolutely. Does B.B. have a sense of phrasing that blows MAB out of the water? Most people would probably say yes. Are either of them bad? No. Would some people rather listen to B.B. King? Yes. Would some rather listen to MAB? Yes. Etc. etc. etc. Different people look for different things in music and, beyond that, different guitarists have different reasons to want to play.

If someone just wants to play music, that's not hurting anyone and they can do that.
If someone wants to show off their shred skills, that's not hurting anyone and they can do that.
If someone wants to get laid, that's not hurting anyone and they can do that.
If someone wants to be the next big singer/songwriter, that's not hurting anyone and they can do that.

If someone wants to be the proverbial twat who plays Wonderwall on someone else's guitar at parties, then you have a problem.
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#33
Quote by CelestialGuitar
I'm just gonna come out and say that I actually hate the sound of slow, melodic guitar playing. It's like nails on a chalkboard for me, I'd take an unbelievably fast player over a melodic player any day. I don't understand why guitar players moan so much about speed, it's not like guitar was the first instrument to be played fast. You wouldn't say 'Oh, that Beethoven, needs to put less notes in the third movement on Moonlight Sonata, it has no soul, maaan.' or 'Lols, I'd take three slow vibrato notes from Andrew Rieu's violin over a note perfect performance of one of Paganini's 24 caprices.' It's just not done, and whoever would do it would instantly show themselves to know nothing about music.

To me, less is more is just one of them phrases that makes them think they can put up a credible argument for Slash being better than Jani Liimatainen, for example, and that's just wrong, if we're going to be honest with ourselves here.

For me "less is more" doesn't mean you shouldn't shred. If shredding is what makes the music sound better, of course you should shred. I think you should play what the music needs. I think I explained what "less is more" means to me in my previous post.

Some music really needs shredding. But in other kind of music shredding would just ruin the whole song. It's all about playing music, not making just yourself satisfied.

I don't think people actually moan about good fast playing. They moan about pointless shredding that destroys the music. Or some do also moan about all shredding because some people don't like the sound of incredibly fast guitar playing. If the music is all about playing fast, it easily just feels like technical wankery. Not saying that all music with fast playing is technical wankery. IMO there's good fast playing and bad fast playing. You can play fast and "tastefully" and you can play fast and "pointlessly". You can also play slowly and "pointlessly". Not all slow playing is "tasteful".

But yeah, sometimes it's really hard to accept the fact that people like different things. And what causes these arguments is people over reacting to things. I don't think people should write comments like "this sucks" or anything like that. That's nothing but provocative. People shouldn't state their opinions as facts. And when it comes to music taste, it's all about opinions.

I don't think you have to argue why Slash could be better than Liimatainen. If you prefer Slash, fine. If you prefer Liimatainen, fine. I'm sure both are good guitarists and it comes down to taste who you prefer. Neither of them needs to be "better" objectively ("better" is a pretty subjective word - it's something you can't really measure). Because it is all about opinions when you talk about professional guitarists. Style is something you just can't measure objectively.
Quote by AlanHB
Just remember that there are no boring scales, just boring players.

Gear

Bach Stradivarius 37G
Charvel So Cal
Fender Dimension Bass
Hartke HyDrive 210c
Ibanez BL70
Laney VC30
Tokai TB48
Yamaha FG720S-12
Yamaha P115
Last edited by MaggaraMarine at Jun 29, 2014,
#34
Quote by MaggaraMarine
I agree with 1 and 3.

2) It's not praising simplistic music. It's praising people who know when to play and when not to play. It's a notification to people who overplay that they don't need to play all the time. (At least that's how I see the phrase). And also it makes you think. Maybe I could have the same effect with less notes? It's all about the "space" in music. IMO music has to have some space in it. It shouldn't be overloaded with parts played at the same time. It means that rests are as important in music as every other note. Not every instrument needs to do their own thing all the time. There is cool stuff like unisonos. Also, not every instrument needs to play all the time. If everybody plays whatever they feel like, their music sounds like a mess.

That's what the phrase means to me. To somebody else it may mean something else..

I probably have been more clear on what I meant by bringing that phrase up...

There's a lot of people I know who use "Less is more" and "KISS" (Keep it simple, stupid) to justify purposely writing simplistic music. Often, they actually have these great ideas...but because they're so obsessed with simplicity for the sake of simplicity, they end up sounding bland, boring, generic, etc. It's like B. B. King. The man is really not that great. I've listened to him many times and almost fell asleep each time. On the other hand, Albert King I can get into.

So, my issue with "Less is more" is when people use it as a justification for simplicity for simplicity's sake, not when people use it properly, as a justification for when/when not to play. Make sense?

Edit:
Btw, I have no issue with simplistic music. I just have an issue with people using phrases like "Less is more" to never write anything more complex than a 4 chord song. Sometimes, it's ok to get a little more complex. People shouldn't be afraid to write complex songs, if that's what the particular song begs for.
Last edited by crazysam23_Atax at Jun 29, 2014,
#35
^ "keep it simple stupid" actually shouldn't have a comma in it. I came across that the other day when trawling wikipedia (yeah my life's a total riot ). At least according to the dude who coined the phrase. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KISS_principle#Origin

But yeah I agree- I like simple stuff and complex stuff and stuff in-between. I also dislike some simple stuff, and some complex stuff, and some stuff in-between.

Quote by Sickz
I would tend to agree, but i don't like things for the speeds sake. It's the musical aspect that determines if somethings good. It's like having a car, i like having a car cause i can take myself from one place to another faster, but without fuel it doesn't matter if i have car or not. It's nice to have speed, but if i don't have anything interesting to say musically it doesn't matter.


I dunno. I mean you could argue that up-tempo stuff in and of itself is sort of an emotion of sorts.

I don't really want to listen to someone running up and down scales ad nauseum either, but playing slowly for the sake of it is arguably no less silly than playing quickly for the sake of it.

Don't get me wrong- I agree it should suit the song. But if a song is meant to be up-tempo, then fast playing will probably suit it... and it's getting pretty close to circular reasoning.

Quote by MaggaraMarine
(a) I agree that complex music is many times praised as "good music" and to lot of people (at least who post comments in the internet) simple music is "bad music". I enjoy both, depending on my mood. I don't always enjoy listening to stuff like Dream Theater. Even the simplest mainstream pop songs have their time and place. Most of the time I like listening to something in between complex and simple (yeah, I know, a stupid description). I mean, stuff that has many different sections but is not too progressive. Def Leppard is a good example - it is very well written pop/rock music (though it's not my favorite band but it's just a good example). They have clearly spent a lot of time to write the songs. They have not settled for the most basic stuff. They use lots of key changes and their song structures are interesting. But they still sound pretty "simple".

Sometimes if the music sounds complex, it starts annoying me. Like the band is just trying to make their music as technical as possible. I do enjoy some calssical music which is pretty complex. But it is complex in a different way than Dream Theater is. Maybe "technical" is the right term. I don't like music that sounds technical. It can be technical but if you can make technical parts sound easy, it is great. being technical and sounding technical are two different things and I think sounding technical is only a bad thing.

Sometimes I enjoy the simplicity of bands like AC/DC and such. They have their own thing that I like.


(b) I agree with 1 and 3.

2) It's not praising simplistic music. It's praising people who know when to play and when not to play. It's a notification to people who overplay that they don't need to play all the time. (At least that's how I see the phrase). And also it makes you think. Maybe I could have the same effect with less notes? It's all about the "space" in music. IMO music has to have some space in it. It shouldn't be overloaded with parts played at the same time. It means that rests are as important in music as every other note. Not every instrument needs to do their own thing all the time. There is cool stuff like unisonos. Also, not every instrument needs to play all the time. If everybody plays whatever they feel like, their music sounds like a mess.

That's what the phrase means to me. To somebody else it may mean something else.

You can make a complex song sound more listenable by following that phrase. Throw away all the technical wankery. As I said, complex music can be made sound very listenable. I used Def Leppard as an example (yeah, they are not that complex but again, they have really spent time in songwriting - and they are more complex than your average rock or pop songs).


(a) +1

(b) yeah. it also depends on what the person means- if they're saying "less is more" to genuinely make people leave space (in a good way), then I agree. But a lot of people use a kind of flippant maxim (often when it's not even valid) to try to shut other people up, or make them play differently because they just don't like it. I don't agree with that.

also def leppard rules. \m/

Quote by CelestialGuitar
I'm just gonna come out and say that I actually hate the sound of slow, melodic guitar playing. It's like nails on a chalkboard for me, I'd take an unbelievably fast player over a melodic player any day. I don't understand why guitar players moan so much about speed, it's not like guitar was the first instrument to be played fast. You wouldn't say 'Oh, that Beethoven, needs to put less notes in the third movement on Moonlight Sonata, it has no soul, maaan.' or 'Lols, I'd take three slow vibrato notes from Andrew Rieu's violin over a note perfect performance of one of Paganini's 24 caprices.' It's just not done, and whoever would do it would instantly show themselves to know nothing about music.

To me, less is more is just one of them phrases that makes them think they can put up a credible argument for Slash being better than Jani Liimatainen, for example, and that's just wrong, if we're going to be honest with ourselves here.


also a very good point. people act like shred guitar in the 80s was the first genre of music where anyone ever played fast.

Quote by K33nbl4d3
I don't get why the concept of "to each his own" is so difficult for people to grasp. Some people prefer melodic playing, some people prefer shred, some people prefer something in between and so forth. A guitarist should work to become able to play everything they want to play and play it well. That may or may not include fast stuff. Personally I think a fast passage can be used really well even in a slow, melodic solo, as long as it fits in properly. Likewise complex or unusual rhythms and time signatures can work well musically (Whipping Post, anyone?).

Can Michael Angelo Batio play faster, harder things than B.B. King? Absolutely. Does B.B. have a sense of phrasing that blows MAB out of the water? Most people would probably say yes. Are either of them bad? No. Would some people rather listen to B.B. King? Yes. Would some rather listen to MAB? Yes. Etc. etc. etc. Different people look for different things in music and, beyond that, different guitarists have different reasons to want to play.

If someone just wants to play music, that's not hurting anyone and they can do that.
If someone wants to show off their shred skills, that's not hurting anyone and they can do that.
If someone wants to get laid, that's not hurting anyone and they can do that.
If someone wants to be the next big singer/songwriter, that's not hurting anyone and they can do that.

If someone wants to be the proverbial twat who plays Wonderwall on someone else's guitar at parties, then you have a problem.


Also +1

is there a proverb about twats, parties and wonderwall? that sounds like an awesome proverb

Quote by MaggaraMarine
For me "less is more" doesn't mean you shouldn't shred. If shredding is what makes the music sound better, of course you should shred. I think you should play what the music needs. I think I explained what "less is more" means to me in my previous post.

Some music really needs shredding. But in other kind of music shredding would just ruin the whole song. It's all about playing music, not making just yourself satisfied.

I don't think people actually moan about good fast playing. They moan about pointless shredding that destroys the music. Or some do also moan about all shredding because some people don't like the sound of incredibly fast guitar playing. If the music is all about playing fast, it easily just feels like technical wankery. Not saying that all music with fast playing is technical wankery. IMO there's good fast playing and bad fast playing. You can play fast and "tastefully" and you can play fast and "pointlessly". You can also play slowly and "pointlessly". Not all slow playing is "tasteful".

But yeah, sometimes it's really hard to accept the fact that people like different things. And what causes these arguments is people over reacting to things. I don't think people should write comments like "this sucks" or anything like that. That's nothing but provocative. People shouldn't state their opinions as facts. And when it comes to music taste, it's all about opinions.

I don't think you have to argue why Slash could be better than Liimatainen. If you prefer Slash, fine. If you prefer Liimatainen, fine. I'm sure both are good guitarists and it comes down to taste who you prefer. Neither of them needs to be "better" objectively ("better" is a pretty subjective word - it's something you can't really measure). Because it is all about opinions when you talk about professional guitarists. Style is something you just can't measure objectively.


Agreed.

Except I've definitely seen people make comments where it's pretty clear that any lead guitar (certainly any fast lead guitar, whether played well or not) at all will be written off as wanking. I'm not saying everyone is like that, or anything like that, but at least some are.

I have no idea who that jani dude is so I should probably clarify that in +1ing CG's previous post, I wasn't talking about that bit. I like slash.

Also I can't hear "less is more" said in all seriousness about music since that frasier episode where he tried to compose his own theme music...
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Quote by K33nbl4d3
I'll have to put the Classic T models on my to-try list. Shame the finish options there are Anachronism Gold, Nuclear Waste and Aged Clown, because in principle the plaintop is right up my alley.

Quote by K33nbl4d3
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Quote by T00DEEPBLUE
Et tu, br00tz?
Last edited by Dave_Mc at Jun 29, 2014,
#36
Quote by Dave_Mc



I dunno. I mean you could argue that up-tempo stuff in and of itself is sort of an emotion of sorts.

I don't really want to listen to someone running up and down scales ad nauseum either, but playing slowly for the sake of it is arguably no less silly than playing quickly for the sake of it.

Don't get me wrong- I agree it should suit the song. But if a song is meant to be up-tempo, then fast playing will probably suit it... and it's getting pretty close to circular reasoning.




I agree. I´m not going to write a long essay about this, but to keep it short..

I enjoy all kinds of playing, be it fast, medium or slow playing. I enjoy all kinds of styles, be it pop, jazz or metal. There are undoubtedly "complex music" that is overrated, and there is "simple music" that is overrated. There is fast music that is overrated, and there are slow music that is overrated. There is alot of music that is underrated aswell.

I don´t care if it is fast or slow, simple or complex, jazz or pop as long as it musically appeals to me. That is my viewpoint, to me i couldn´t care less what other people think about it, cause my preferences only apply to myself.
Fusion and jazz musician, a fan of most music.

Quote by Guthrie Govan
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Quote by Chick Corea
"Only play what you hear. If you don't hear anything, don't play anything."
#37
Interesting. I was watching a youtube video the other night of a group of artists playing "When My Guitar Gently Weeps". I explained to my girlfriend that the notes (riffs) that Prince were playing aren't actually in the original song. Yeah, he has fast fingers, but I wonder if he could actually play the song as it was meant to be. (Yes I know that Prince is a gifted musician)
#38
Quote by Sickz
I agree. I´m not going to write a long essay about this, but to keep it short..

I enjoy all kinds of playing, be it fast, medium or slow playing. I enjoy all kinds of styles, be it pop, jazz or metal. There are undoubtedly "complex music" that is overrated, and there is "simple music" that is overrated. There is fast music that is overrated, and there are slow music that is overrated. There is alot of music that is underrated aswell.

I don´t care if it is fast or slow, simple or complex, jazz or pop as long as it musically appeals to me. That is my viewpoint, to me i couldn´t care less what other people think about it, cause my preferences only apply to myself.


agreed. same here.
I'm an idiot and I accidentally clicked the "Remove all subscriptions" button. If it seems like I'm ignoring you, I'm not, I'm just no longer subscribed to the thread. If you quote me or do the @user thing at me, hopefully it'll notify me through my notifications and I'll get back to you.
Quote by K33nbl4d3
I'll have to put the Classic T models on my to-try list. Shame the finish options there are Anachronism Gold, Nuclear Waste and Aged Clown, because in principle the plaintop is right up my alley.

Quote by K33nbl4d3
Presumably because the CCF (Combined Corksniffing Forces) of MLP and Gibson forums would rise up against them, plunging the land into war.

Quote by T00DEEPBLUE
Et tu, br00tz?
#39
Quote by CelestialGuitar
I don't understand why guitar players moan so much about speed, it's not like guitar was the first instrument to be played fast. You wouldn't say 'Oh, that Beethoven, needs to put less notes in the third movement on Moonlight Sonata, it has no soul, maaan.' or 'Lols, I'd take three slow vibrato notes from Andrew Rieu's violin over a note perfect performance of one of Paganini's 24 caprices.' It's just not done, and whoever would do it would instantly show themselves to know nothing about music.
Isn't the inverse also true? Which makes me wonder how you rationalize this with the rest of your post:

Quote by CelestialGuitar
I'm just gonna come out and say that I actually hate the sound of slow, melodic guitar playing. It's like nails on a chalkboard for me, I'd take an unbelievably fast player over a melodic player any day.

Si
#40


When i said he had a good point, I didn't mean that bit (the bit about hating the sound of slow, melodic playing). I love good slow, melodic playing too. I meant his points about acting like guitar is the only instrument with fast playing, or about people not saying fast classical pieces suck, were good.

Just to clarify.
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Quote by K33nbl4d3
I'll have to put the Classic T models on my to-try list. Shame the finish options there are Anachronism Gold, Nuclear Waste and Aged Clown, because in principle the plaintop is right up my alley.

Quote by K33nbl4d3
Presumably because the CCF (Combined Corksniffing Forces) of MLP and Gibson forums would rise up against them, plunging the land into war.

Quote by T00DEEPBLUE
Et tu, br00tz?
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