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#1
Hello old, new and all between members of the pit

Universal Morality is the belief that we are all dominated by a moral code that resonates threw out the universe and that every single being, no matter the race, knows exactly when they break this code.

here is a quote from C.S Lewis upon the matter:

"These then are the two points that I wanted to make. First, that human beings, all over the earth, have this curious idea that they ought to behave in a certain way, and cannot really get rid of it.
Secondly, that they do not in fact behave in that way. They know the Law of Nature; they break it.
These two facts are the foundation of all clear thinking about ourselves and the universe we live in"


what do you guys think?

the idea or universal morality is very comforting to me
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#3
C.S. Lewis was a Christian and therefore can't really be trusted. I mean if he believes in God he'll be in anything right?
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#4
Quote by Baby Joel
C.S. Lewis was a Christian and therefore can't really be trusted. I mean if he believes in God he'll be in anything right?


oh he was a twisted man who pushed religion down children's throats by using kids books, don't get me wrong, but i don't think all his ideas should be overlooked just for that, lets admit it he did it in a pretty sly way
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You are a sick man, Riley.
#5
I don't know how you say anything is universal because humans have it somewhat but not really
#6
I do not agree with the concept of 'natural law' or universal morality.

Similarly I think it's hilarious when certain Americans claim that other democracies are just governments allowing certain liberties while America is freer because we 'protect natural law', despite the fact that the Bill of Rights that they cite is also just a government allowing certain liberties.
#7
So what you're saying is that not only is the world not black and white but only one shade?

Just because you find it comfortable doesn't make it true.
#8
it's really more of a religious concept than anything and isn't very good. the idea that morality is "real" is legit though, a lot of people seem to think it's just "made up" which is different than saying natural law is made up
#9
>threw out the universe

You're making assumptions about the thoughts and behavior of aliens we haven't even met yet.
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#11
Quote by captaincrunk
well yeah that's kind of the point of the philosophy

The whole endeavor sounds sketchy.
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#12
Quote by ErikLensherr
The whole endeavor sounds sketchy.

well... yeah pretty much. but the idea that something is wrong no matter who did it is fairly attractive. for example one alien murdering another would still be wrong, right? the problem with natural law is that it adds some magical element to it
#13
why would you talk about Natural Law via a CS Lewis quote rather than something from Aquinas, Hobbes or Locke
#14
This doesn't make sense, as moral codes are very culture specific, and even within one culture can change over time.
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#15
Quote by captaincrunk
well yeah that's kind of the point of the philosophy



And science.
#16
Quote by BelowTheSun
why would you talk about Natural Law via a CS Lewis quote rather than something from Aquinas, Hobbes or Locke


'cuz i have shit culture
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#17
Quote by Wormholes
And science.

Making assumptions about things we do not know is not how science works

Science is making statements about things that we've shown to be extremely likely to be true
You who build these altars now

To sacrifice these children
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#19
Quote by Wormholes
Like all life on earth was carbon based oh wait it isnt


why do you keep saying this


also, no

Quote by the bartender
Making assumptions about things we do not know is not how science works

Science is making statements about things that we've shown to be extremely likely to be true


how many times do i have to say, it's induction all the way down. there's one word for all of it, no need to write so many.
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Last edited by Eastwinn at Jul 17, 2014,
#20
Quote by Wormholes
Like all life on earth was carbon based oh wait it isnt

note how i said 'extremely likely' instead of 'absolutely sure'

Quote by Eastwinn
how many times do i have to say, it's induction all the way down. there's one word for all of it, no need to write so many.

I prefer to explain things in a way that more people will understand
You who build these altars now

To sacrifice these children
You must not do it anymore
Last edited by the bartender at Jul 17, 2014,
#21
It's stupid. That's all that needs to be said on the topic.
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#22
Quote by the bartender
Making assumptions about things we do not know is not how science works

Science is making statements about things that we've shown to be extremely likely to be true

just define truth as what science would eventually lead us to given infinite investigation and then suddenly both is science noble and truth achievable
#23
The very basics of morality have underwent natural selection just as much as skin colour or hair colour or whatever. People who are douches were probably kicked out of herds and so would have had less of a chance of passing on their genes. It's why most people wouldn't commit murder even if they were told there would be no consequences.
#24
Morality cannot exist unless you believe in a relative moral force of some sort (but thats just a belief and has no basis in physical reality). Morals exist because human beings value themselves, thats it. In reality though, no there is no such thing as good or bad its all relative to how it affects us which is why we like to throw the morality card around so much.
#25
we only have morals because every person is afraid of everyone else getting in their way, because it's a win-win
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#28
Well, it's nice to think it works that way, isn't it? It kind of gives you more authority and power to either enforce what you want, or to follow certain rules, guides, or just use it as guidance in a way that makes you feel good, safe and confident about everything in the world.


But I don't think it works that way, at least not how everybody thinks it is. When people talk about this "universal morality", or absolute morality, it basically boils down to state-of-matter truths about what is wrong and what is right. "You shalt not steal", "You shouldn't punch a terminal ill baby in the face", etc. But yeah, that's not really how I think it works.
I'm not entirely sure on the other spectrum either, of "relativity" of morality, that everything is relative, and we shouldn't care for any standard or global enforcement/guidance regarding it because of it. I think it's somewhat in the middle, but it needs a better theory behind it to understand it better. I.e it's not black and white, "these philosophers think one thing" vs "these other philosophers think another thing" and it's either one or the other.

Morality is this sort of thing, where you define what's moral to you, or have a stance on what you think may be "absolute morality". But since you made it, or since your country, your culture, etc made it, it's obviously relative in that sense. Would someone else come up with the same morality? If he does, he may act "moral" to himself, while for you he's acting "immoral". Just by switching POVs one action is moral or not, so what gives?
This I believe is where relativistic morality just stops (at least the popular one, surely there are/were hundreds of philosophers coming up with new and different stuff I haven't heard about). Just because different people may think they have a sort of absolute morality themselves, doesn't mean that there isn't one.
I mean, maybe it can mean that their morality "inside their own bubble" is wrong. But because of that, you'd need a higher-level morality, a morality that takes into account your own culture, your own prejudices, your own thoughts, your own assumptions about the world, etc (or that of your culture/group/etc). It's at this level that you can more easily compare the "moralities" of the other people/groups/etc, since you are working at a level beyond theirs.

You can take your own morality, analyze it taking into account your personal feelings/beliefs/culture/etc, and come up with something else, or come up with a different understanding of it and how the world works. Then you can analyze what other cultures/people believe or think is moral, and analyze their contexts too (also analyze the actions/beliefs they take or have based on said morality). Then you have a fairer way to compare and arrive at a somewhat "absolute" morality.

For instance, maybe you believe it is wrong to shoot someone in the street who's threatening you. Maybe you think life is too precious to shoot, and you should try to use any other means necessary. You believe people that shoot others in this kind of situation immoral, etc. There are other people that think differently, and think it's perfectly moral to shoot someone else in this situation. Right now is where you should start thinking "Why do I think this is the case?". Do you live in a liberal society, or a society that values certain things over others? If so, does this change the "absolutism" of your belief? Is the other person really immoral for shooting, even if he thinks himself moral? What about his beliefs, his culture, his societal values?
Then you can try going deeper and deeper into the possible situations that "moral law" is applied to, depending on the context, etc, and try to get a better understanding of it.

But yeah, because of Gödel and all that shit you can keep climbing up in abstraction and levels so you can't really find a true "absolute" morality (based on this model), even if you had the perfect logical power to understand everything....or could you? I'm not so sure myself. Maybe this model I'm presenting is wrong, and doesn't represent morality at all. But in my own personal beliefs I think it has something to do with it (at least in spirit), and it's not really how other beliefs paint it to be
#29
Tldr

But I will say that as far as moral theories must be absolute in order to argue. Do you think Mill would be famous if he said "well Kant is right in this situation, but I'm right in this way". Hell no. Either always right or never right.


Now, in the real world is that always practical? No. But arguing half theories, agnostic, relative bullshit is no fun.
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#30
so no belief in animal morality either?
Quote by WantsLesPaul
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#31
Quote by CrAzY-RiLeY
so no belief in animal morality either?

We should always be careful when copying human concepts to other animals, but I would say that some animals probably do have some form of moral code. Highly social animals like Elephants, Dolphins and most Ape species have such advanced social group structures that it would be very likely for them to have developed altruistic traits in order to achieve this.

In fact I'm quite sure that it has been proven for a few species, but I cba to look it up right now.
You who build these altars now

To sacrifice these children
You must not do it anymore
#32
Quote by CrAzY-RiLeY
so no belief in animal morality either?


It bugs me when people anthropomorphize animals like that.

Sure various species might have some sort of social organization, but it might not necessarily be one we can relate to. Assigning human like traits to it is silly.

But morality? That's a human thing.
#33
Nature doesn't have laws, it more or less has 'habits.' And so do humans and animals. These habitual behaviours can translate into moral codes which can change over time based on what physical and social environment the human/animal is placed in. All that human rationalization does is give a name to it which further allows us to abstract from the natural reality. But its the words and abstracts that distance themselves from nature, not the actual behaviours; how could they, as they arise in a natural world.
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#34
I only believe in Brannigan's Law. Which, like Brannigan's love, is hard and fast.
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#36
Morality is just a fancy word for what happened after we became aware that our actions have consequences that can be enforced against us
#37
Quote by BelowTheSun
why would you talk about Natural Law via a CS Lewis quote rather than something from Aquinas, Hobbes or Locke

That bothered me as well.
#38
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I only believe in Brannigan's Law. Which, like Brannigan's love, is hard and fast.


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#39
Quote by CrAzY-RiLeY
oh he was a twisted man who pushed religion down children's throats by using kids books, don't get me wrong, but i don't think all his ideas should be overlooked just for that, lets admit it he did it in a pretty sly way

Writing Christian allegory is pushing religion down kids throats?
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#40
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Writing Christian allegory is pushing religion down kids throats?


okay maybe i went a bit far...tickling their sub conscience with Christianity?
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