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#1
Hello,
I have learned abou the major scale and it pattern, key signatures that come with it and everything else a nd I was wondering what other scales are very important to know. I mostly play metal but I like to experiment with new sound from other music styles therefore a scale used for example mostly in blues would not be inappropriate since I don't want to limit myself.
Thanks
#2
Well, the blues scale is pretty cool. You might also like Phrygian dominant (5th mode of harmonic minor), considering you play metal. Also the modes of the major scale are good to know.
#3
The 12 major scales are the most important, because everything else is built from them. Those alone account for easily 90% of the music you'll ever hear.

Don't worry about modes or anything like that until you already know the Major Scale in all 12 keys. After that, everything else will make more sense.
Last edited by cdgraves at Jul 22, 2014,
#4
Quote by cdgraves
The 12 major scales are the most important, because everything else is built from them. Those alone account for easily 90% of the music you'll ever hear.

Don't worry about modes or anything like that until you already know the Major Scale in all 12 keys. After that, everything else will make more sense.



this also ocne youve done that learn the minor scales

the pentatonic and blues scales are also good for beggining on the guitar and used alot in pretty much every style of music
#5
if you know your major scale you already know the 7 modes.

alter a few notes and you get other scales easily. for example the jazz melodic minor is often used in Jazz when the Imaj7 chord goes to Imin7. the formula of the scale is 1 2 b3 4 5 6 7 so i just take my major scale and flat the third note, no need to re-learn a bunch of shapes

the major scale is the most important one to know inside out because all the others scale are derived from it. ex.: if a piece is in C minor, i just think of the pitches of Eb scale resolving around C, no need to learn a bunch of minor scales

if you are bored with the sound of that scale, take out a few notes and experiment (ex. pent major is 1 2 3 5 6 of the major scale)
Last edited by SuperKid at Jul 22, 2014,
#8
i'd say minor (natural, probably) and maybe blues
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Quote by K33nbl4d3
I'll have to put the Classic T models on my to-try list. Shame the finish options there are Anachronism Gold, Nuclear Waste and Aged Clown, because in principle the plaintop is right up my alley.

Quote by K33nbl4d3
Presumably because the CCF (Combined Corksniffing Forces) of MLP and Gibson forums would rise up against them, plunging the land into war.

Quote by T00DEEPBLUE
Et tu, br00tz?
#9
Okay thanks :-) i look into the pentatonics, the various minors and the blues scales for now.
Thanks for your help
#11
Yes they are the basis of all scales but i have to look at the others as well to learn them obviously.
#12
Quote by cdgraves
no, you should just learn the 12 major scales. They are the basis of literally every other scale.

It's like asking what words you should learn how to spell, when you should just learn the alphabet.


Well, there is only 1 Major scale. You can play it in 12 keys, but you don't have to learn all 12 before bringing other scales into it.
#13
Quote by Jayerrr
Yes they are the basis of all scales but i have to look at the others as well to learn them obviously.


So learn them in the context of learning something else. Like if you are learning a song that uses the major scale but a few notes are not from that scale, use that as a springboard to adapting a new scale into your repertoire. This way you have a scale and you have an example of where it was used.

Like when I learned the wholetone, I took the inspiration from Vernon Reid and his Cult of Personality solo.

Best,

Sean
#14
Quote by cdgraves
The 12 major scales are the most important, because everything else is built from them. Those alone account for easily 90% of the music you'll ever hear.

Don't worry about modes or anything like that until you already know the Major Scale in all 12 keys. After that, everything else will make more sense.



Ive heard the "learn the scale in all 12 keys" advice before and I cant seem to see why you would want to practice playing a scale in all the different keys? Surely its the same shapes/intervals for each key, and there is a ton of more interesting things to be doing that practising scales. I learnt the C major scale first because it was easier for me to learn at first with box shapes. From that I can access the modes by focusing on a different note in that scale. I practiced the G major scale too so I could use E minor on the low E string.

But whats the point in practicing scales for all 12 keys?
#15
Quote by SuperKid
if you know your major scale you already know the 7 modes.

Not necessarily. You need to get used to their sounds first.


Quote by lodgi

But whats the point in practicing scales for all 12 keys?


If you play in a lot of different keys or change keys often, you will get annoyed really fast if you can't play in all keys.

For instance, you're in key X, play a cool secondary dominant chord and suddenly you're in a new key. You will hit a brick wall because you don't know how to play in that key or what the notes are.

Or if you play a lot of non-diatonic chords, using a chord/scale approach is useful. You can't do that if you don't know the scale for each chord.
Last edited by Elintasokas at Jul 25, 2014,
#16
Quote by Elintasokas
Not necessarily. You need to get used to their sounds first.


If you play in a lot of different keys or change keys often, you will get annoyed really fast if you can't play in all keys.

For instance, you're in key X, play a cool secondary dominant chord and suddenly you're in a new key. You will hit a brick wall because you don't know how to play in that key or what the notes are.

Or if you play a lot of non-diatonic chords, using a chord/scale approach is useful. You can't do that if you don't know the scale for each chord.

Agree. What makes modes different from the major scale is that they have a different root note. So if you can use the major scale, it doesn't mean you will get good sounds by using the same notes over a dorian progression (because the same notes get different functions in different keys).

Playing in G major is not the same as playing in E minor. If you play the B note in E minor, it sounds different than playing the same note in G major. That's because the note gets different functions in different keys. In G major B is the third and in E minor it's the fifth.

I would recommend comparing parallel scales to each other. They tell a lot about how the scale sounds like and how different scales differ from each other. Play E major and E minor and you'll see which notes are the same and which are different in the scales. And you'll understand the sound difference better that way.

And yeah, if you know G major scale, it doesn't mean you can play in any key. Yes, you technically know the fingerings of every major scale but you should be able to do it without needing to think. And if you only know one major scale, you need to think all the time if you play in another key. For example if you only know the G major scale, you need to move every note up three frets to play in Bb major. And that requires thinking.
Quote by AlanHB
Just remember that there are no boring scales, just boring players.

Gear

Bach Stradivarius 37G
Charvel So Cal
Fender Dimension Bass
Hartke HyDrive 210c
Ibanez BL70
Laney VC30
Tokai TB48
Yamaha FG720S-12
Yamaha P115
Last edited by MaggaraMarine at Jul 25, 2014,
#17
Quote by lodgi
But whats the point in practicing scales for all 12 keys?


So you can play in every key. It's pretty basic musicianship. Being able to play in less than 12 keys is essentially a musical disability.

The intervals are the same in each key, yes, but you can't play them if you don't practice them.

And there is much more interesting stuff than practicing scales, which is why you should get it out of the way now. You'll find your options get a lot less interesting when you don't understand or cant play the music you enjoy.

It really doesn't take long to learn all 12 major scales across the fretboard. Once you've got them down, it only takes a few minutes to play them all as a warm up.
#20
you guys do realize that there's only one major scale transposed linearly across the fretboard (or piano keys), right? likewise each "mode" of the major scale and the minor scale are all such transpositions. there's really no need to practice anything in any particular key, they're all linearly dependent.

that said i think the whole scale approach is overdone. western tonal music can, without loss of much generality, be reduced to a sequence of 12 residue classes. once a root, residue 0, is determined, all movements in the sequence may be expressed as elementary modular operations against the previous element. for example, the previously mentioned whole tone scale may be regarded as an arbitrary root and the sequence generated by the recursive rule S(n) ≡ S(n-1) + 2 (modulo 12).

less pompous naming is needed.
i don't know why i feel so dry
#21
Quote by crazysam23_Atax
+1

Learn about keys and how they function.

I don't think you can really understand keys without scales.

But I agree that it is pretty pointless to learn all the exotic scales. Learning 1000 scales isn't going to make you a better musician. Knowing the major and minor scales and knowing what accidentals are and how to use them is enough. I mean, you can do a lot with just minor and major scales. How you use scales is more important than knowing some random scales that sound exotic. As my signature says, there are no boring scales, just boring players.
Quote by AlanHB
Just remember that there are no boring scales, just boring players.

Gear

Bach Stradivarius 37G
Charvel So Cal
Fender Dimension Bass
Hartke HyDrive 210c
Ibanez BL70
Laney VC30
Tokai TB48
Yamaha FG720S-12
Yamaha P115
Last edited by MaggaraMarine at Jul 26, 2014,
#22
Quote by Eastwinn
you guys do realize that there's only one major scale transposed linearly across the fretboard (or piano keys), right? likewise each "mode" of the major scale and the minor scale are all such transpositions. there's really no need to practice anything in any particular key, they're all linearly dependent.

Oh, but you're so wrong. They are dependent, sure, but can you recall them in real time? You can't just stop and transpose one scale in real time while you're playing. In theory, it's as simple as you say, but not in practice.

Quote by Eastwinn

that said i think the whole scale approach is overdone. western tonal music can, without loss of much generality, be reduced to a sequence of 12 residue classes. once a root, residue 0, is determined, all movements in the sequence may be expressed as elementary modular operations against the previous element. for example, the previously mentioned whole tone scale may be regarded as an arbitrary root and the sequence generated by the recursive rule S(n) ≡ S(n-1) + 2 (modulo 12).

lol
Last edited by Elintasokas at Jul 26, 2014,
#24
Learning all the major scales is just basic fretboard/musical knowledge. This shouldn't be a debate. It really is like learning how to spell, for someone who wants to be a writer.

Keys and scales are not abstraction. Taking the time to work them out on the neck is a huge benefit in terms of technique and musicianship. Stuff like effective use of hand positioning is very important for learning and improvising.
Last edited by cdgraves at Jul 26, 2014,
#25
Quote by crazysam23_Atax

Learn about keys and how they function.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Key_%28lock%29

(sorry )

Quote by cdgraves
Learning all the major scales is just basic fretboard/musical knowledge. This shouldn't be a debate. It really is like learning how to spell, for someone who wants to be a writer.


An awful lot of writers admit to being terrible at spelling...
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Quote by K33nbl4d3
I'll have to put the Classic T models on my to-try list. Shame the finish options there are Anachronism Gold, Nuclear Waste and Aged Clown, because in principle the plaintop is right up my alley.

Quote by K33nbl4d3
Presumably because the CCF (Combined Corksniffing Forces) of MLP and Gibson forums would rise up against them, plunging the land into war.

Quote by T00DEEPBLUE
Et tu, br00tz?
#26
Quote by Elintasokas
Oh, but you're so wrong. They are dependent, sure, but can you recall them in real time? You can't just stop and transpose one scale in real time while you're playing. In theory, it's as simple as you say, but not in practice.


lol


yes and yes i can. the part that you responded to with "lol" makes it all simple to do on the fly. you can add and subtract numbers smaller than twelve, right?
i don't know why i feel so dry
#27
He's saying lol because you're basically describing one of the main principles behind set theory, which is a well established branch of music theory. It's because you're "ranting" about the non-existence of a thing that does exist.
#28
Quote by Eastwinn
yes and yes i can. the part that you responded to with "lol" makes it all simple to do on the fly. you can add and subtract numbers smaller than twelve, right?

I'm sorry, but you don't have time to add or subtract anything while improvising unless you have some kind of a superhuman brain.
#29
Quote by sickman411
He's saying lol because you're basically describing one of the main principles behind set theory, which is a well established branch of music theory. It's because you're "ranting" about the non-existence of a thing that does exist.


i was "ranting" about the emphasis on scales when a much better approach exists. i'm aware that the branch of music theory exists, hence why i used the term "transpose" where as if i were concentrated solely on mathematics i would shoot myself before i'd make that mistake

however, the construction of transformational stuff is disappointing, to say the least. abandoning traditional operations on congruence classes in favor of unfamiliar terminology and and subpar abstraction makes me unhappy

Quote by Elintasokas
I'm sorry, but you don't have time to add or subtract anything while improvising unless you have some kind of a superhuman brain.


this is pretty embarrassing. that said, i don't improvise. waste of time eh.
i don't know why i feel so dry
#30
Quote by MaggaraMarine
I don't think you can really understand keys without scales.

Well...true. The major scale is taught, and so is the minor scale. Once you know those 2 scales, you can understand keys. Once you understand keys, memorizing 1000's of scales is just...useless.
That isn't to say learning the pentatonic scales or the blues scale is bad. But learning like the Japanese 10-tonal scale (or whatever) probably won't do you much.

But I agree that it is pretty pointless to learn all the exotic scales. Learning 1000 scales isn't going to make you a better musician. Knowing the major and minor scales and knowing what accidentals are and how to use them is enough. I mean, you can do a lot with just minor and major scales. How you use scales is more important than knowing some random scales that sound exotic. As my signature says, there are no boring scales, just boring players.

Exactly!
Last edited by crazysam23_Atax at Jul 26, 2014,
#31
^ Yeah pretty much. I got the major scale modes down* (and even that I'd say is more useful for getting used to how specific accidentals sound when used with the major or minor scale) and pretty much quit. You can do 90% (to clarify, I totally made that number up) of stuff with the major, minor and blues scales.


* "Down" meaning I know the intervals, not that I necessarily know them all over the fingerboard. Plus I suppose I know how to derive them, and other modes. A lot of people overlook the fact that if you're aware of stuff, and know how to work it out, that can often be enough and is normally much better than being totally clueless, but doesn't take anywhere near the effort required to have it down pat, either.
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Quote by K33nbl4d3
I'll have to put the Classic T models on my to-try list. Shame the finish options there are Anachronism Gold, Nuclear Waste and Aged Clown, because in principle the plaintop is right up my alley.

Quote by K33nbl4d3
Presumably because the CCF (Combined Corksniffing Forces) of MLP and Gibson forums would rise up against them, plunging the land into war.

Quote by T00DEEPBLUE
Et tu, br00tz?
#32
Quote by Elintasokas
I'm sorry, but you don't have time to add or subtract anything while improvising unless you have some kind of a superhuman brain.

Um, you kind of can
I mean on the guitar it's so simple, because it's the same pattern, just shifted across the fretboard so many steps. To be honest, I think the guitar is just about the simplest when it comes to learning scales, because it literally is just 'learn the pattern of one, then shift it'. Fingering stays the same . Everything stays the same. It's just shifted.
it's all just coming back
it's all coming back

it's all coming back to me
#33
Quote by Baby Joel
It's just shifted.


This concept of scales is why guitarists get stuck playing the same patterns over and over. If you want your playing to develop, you really have to understand keys/scales as a set of notes all over the fretboard, not just finger patterns and positions.

Changing key does not mean you have to change hand position. That's a pretty bad limitation to have.
Last edited by cdgraves at Jul 26, 2014,
#34
You can have a certain fluidity with scales you've practiced with and used methodically in your improvising, saying "Aye mate you can just shift em about" doesn't really work if want to improvise to a standard as high as your well-practiced scales. Sure, you can just work around the "boxes" and do quick addition in your head to figure out where above the 12th you can do your cool bend, but who wants to do that shit on the spot? You're limiting yourself to transposed shapes, when in reality different key signatures can open up new sonic possibilities.

You should be learning your entire fretboard so you don't have to think when the time comes...although saying that, I still can't improvise for shit in D# and a few others
#35
Yeah but for instance, when I play I often just know the key and the chords relative to it, find where the tonic is all over the fretboard and work out the intervals "graphically" from there.

Of course, you can miss out on stuff involving open strings and harmonics, and it can possibly be confusing if you know the chord names but the function is hard to think of quickly (which I know does happen often, in jazz most remarkably), but it works fine for most of the stuff I play. And it's much easier for me to just "do that shit on the spot", as you say, than to be aware of every note I play. I find intervals easier to work with on guitar than notes.
Last edited by sickman411 at Jul 26, 2014,
#36
^ +1

99% of what I play is first position minor pentatonic or blues, and I just shift it about. An awful lot of the classic solos I learn are, too.

Don't get me wrong, if you play jazz or something like that, that won't fly, but not everyone wants to play jazz (or at least not everyone is willing to expend the kind of effort needed to be able to play jazz well, which is maybe not the same thing ).

I mean, I could be wrong but I get the feeling only guitar players (and only a very certain kind of guitar player at that) will care less what position you play in, as long as you're playing the right notes. Guitar's one of the few instruments where notes can be found in different places. I'm sure I've seen crazysam23_Atax (apologies if it was someone else ) say that no other instruments use tab so guitar shouldn't either, but you could use the exact same argument regarding positions on guitar.
I'm an idiot and I accidentally clicked the "Remove all subscriptions" button. If it seems like I'm ignoring you, I'm not, I'm just no longer subscribed to the thread. If you quote me or do the @user thing at me, hopefully it'll notify me through my notifications and I'll get back to you.
Quote by K33nbl4d3
I'll have to put the Classic T models on my to-try list. Shame the finish options there are Anachronism Gold, Nuclear Waste and Aged Clown, because in principle the plaintop is right up my alley.

Quote by K33nbl4d3
Presumably because the CCF (Combined Corksniffing Forces) of MLP and Gibson forums would rise up against them, plunging the land into war.

Quote by T00DEEPBLUE
Et tu, br00tz?
Last edited by Dave_Mc at Jul 26, 2014,
#37
The problem with learning by position is that you have a lot less fluidity with "good notes" - your playing is much less interesting when you use boxes and it gets repetitive quickly. There are so many places where you need to play horizontally to get the tone, articulation, and range you want from a melody. Playing with position limitations is how you get the most of out of your technique.
#38
Quote by cdgraves
The problem with learning by position is that you have a lot less fluidity with "good notes" - your playing is much less interesting when you use boxes and it gets repetitive quickly. There are so many places where you need to play horizontally to get the tone, articulation, and range you want from a melody. Playing with position limitations is how you get the most of out of your technique.

nah but what I'm saying is that if I know the pattern of a scale, let's say the major, I know it goes w-w-h-w-w-w-h (w=whole step, h=half). So I know that on any given root, I can just do that up the string (0-2-4-5-7-9-11-12). I also know the way to play it through strings (meaning e:0-2-4 a:0-2-4 e:1-2 can't be bothered to code it out properly, but you get my meaning). So with both of those, I can shift the root anywhere, and I'll know the scale above, below, next to, whatever.

It's just always been so much simpler for me to do that instead of memorise each respective note on the fretboard.
it's all just coming back
it's all coming back

it's all coming back to me
#39
^That restricts you to scale patterns though. Or scales anyway.

What I do is if I want a certain interval from a note, I know where it is. And it's easy to stack them too. If I want, say, the major third from the perfect fourth, that's pretty easy to figure out. So you can think from the chords' point of view too.
Last edited by sickman411 at Jul 26, 2014,
#40
Quote by sickman411
^That restricts you to scale patterns though. Or scales anyway.




Not really. Knowing a pattern doesn't restrict you from playing outside of it.

Quote by cdgraves
This concept of scales is why guitarists get stuck playing the same patterns over and over


scales are a fundamental aspect of music. It's inaccurate to imply that visualizing them is THE reason that guitarists "get stuck playing the same patterns over and over". I would blame things like, laziness, complacency, a lack of practice time, a small to nonexistent repertoire, poor listening skills, and a lack of fundamentals, before I would blame the visualization of fundamental concepts like scales.

The ability to visualize the pattern is helpful. You can see the intervals, you can see the relationships.
Last edited by GuitarMunky at Jul 26, 2014,