#1
Hi,

I own a JCM900 1x12 combo and a tiny terror with a vox nightrain 1x12 cab.
Convince me to buy a bigger cab for these amps.
What's the difference?

And if I'd buy it used, what are things I should look out for? I'm looking at a 4x12 1965A Marshall Cab for € 200 (270$). Seems cheap ! Maybe something's wrong with it.

Help me out here, thanks!
#3
Quote by LivinJoke84
Do you need a bigger cab? Do you gig?

Rarely but would it make a big difference at a gig? If I'd gig I can probably get loud enough with a 1x12 so I'm wondering if a 4x12 adds something more to the sound than just loudness.
#4
Just so you know, the 1965 is a 410 cab, not a 412 cab.

Doesn't sound like you want a bigger cab. Why do you feel like you need one?
Spin 'round carousel when your horse isn't screwed in.

My band:
Fractured Instinct
(For fans of Death/Groove/Prog Metal)

Ibanez RGA42E
Ibanez S420
LTD H-301
Ibanez RG520
Peavey Predator USA
Douglas Grendel 725
Line 6 Pod HD500X
#5
Quote by Offworld92
Just so you know, the 1965 is a 410 cab, not a 412 cab.

Doesn't sound like you want a bigger cab. Why do you feel like you need one?


I'm not sure, actually it was more my intent to get convinced I didn't need one than the other way around. My friends from local bands all invested money to get big cabs so I just started wondering if it was necessary to do also.
But if it only adds loudness I probably don't need it.
#6
It does, but it's way more relevant to address how it adds the perception of loudness, because of the way the extra speakers, and the way they are angled in an angled cab, project the sound over a much larger area.

I personally don't know if I'd play live without a 412, but you don't by any means need one, especially if you're being mic'd up. They make hearing yourself on stage, and generating sustain far easier.

Your genre and the gear the rest of your band has makes a big difference as well, you have to be able to keep up with everyone else, and you need more volume depending on how crazy your drummer is.
Spin 'round carousel when your horse isn't screwed in.

My band:
Fractured Instinct
(For fans of Death/Groove/Prog Metal)

Ibanez RGA42E
Ibanez S420
LTD H-301
Ibanez RG520
Peavey Predator USA
Douglas Grendel 725
Line 6 Pod HD500X
#7
412 cabs sound bigger/deeper, by quite a bit. That alone is the reason I have one. But you can also run different combinations of speakers to try to get a unique tone. Also, at least with an angled cab like mine, it points the top two speakers right at your face if you're standing in front of it, so you can hear what you're playing a little better in a band situation.

And they also help to generate feedback without having to go squat down right in front of your amp while playing technical sh$%.
Atmospheric dark metal w/ black and death metal influences:
(My Soundcloud page):

Pestilential Flood
#8
Larger cabinets will generally always have a warmer tone because of their physical size.
Quote by Axelfox
Reeeeeeeeeeeeeeee

Quote by H4T3BR33D3R
I also have to do that. Cottaging this weekend
#9
What do you guys think about 410 cabs? Big difference in low end? (In comparison with 412)
Last edited by slash&angus at Jul 24, 2014,
#10
More dynamic headroom and that big "thump" onstage when you chunk it are characteristics of a 4x12 simply by moving more air. It is pretty irrelevant to my music but a trademark of 80s sound. You can get the same effect with a quality closed-back 1x12 and a mic to the PA with less moving and storage. There is also an 80s image associated with a 4x12.
"Your sound is in your hands as much as anything. It's the way you pick, and the way you hold the guitar, more than it is the amp or the guitar you use." -- Stevie Ray Vaughan

"Anybody can play. The note is only 20 percent. The attitude of the motherfucker who plays it is 80 percent." -- Miles Davis

Guthrie on tone: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zmohdG9lLqY
Last edited by Cajundaddy at Jul 24, 2014,
#11
Quote by Cajundaddy
There is also an 80s image associated with a 4x12.


Is there? What are people playing these days? Combos?
#12
I've got four 4x12s in storage these days. I used to use a pair of them with a 100W Carvin XV112E (1x12 combo) onstage. They don't come out of storage any more except for occasional stage decoration.

1. 4x12s beam treble. They do NOT project over a wider area; just the opposite. This includes the slant cabinets (the slant actually makes very little difference). A single 12" speaker will begin to beam treble above about 1350Hz. Four of them in a square will begin to beam treble at around 500Hz, which means that the guitar player, off-axis, thinks he's got a great guitar tone. Meanwhile, an audience member on-axis is being hit by ear-splitting ice-pick treble and wondering why the guitar player can't hear how crappy he sounds. If you want to project over a wider area, put four 12" speakers in a single column vertically. You can do that with a full stack by pulling the wires on the left-side speakers (leaving you with a single tall column of four speakers). This will actually give you far more horizontal dispersion.


2. 4x12s produce muddy bottom end at rock band volumes. They don't sound deeper. You CAN get speaker cabinets that will sound deeper, but 4x12s usually fall off rapidly below 110Hz (and 82Hz is where your low E string lives). 100W isn't enough to reproduce good lows at rock volumes anyway. That's why there are 1500W bass amps.

3. They don't "add more loudness." It's an easy test with an SPL meter. Be sure to test off axis and at different frequencies.

4. Most clubs with inhouse sound systems won't allow you to crank a 4x12 loud enough to get feedback sustain. Fact is, they want to reduce stage volume considerably so that they can keep guitar crap out of the vocal mikes.

5. When you mike a 4x12 onstage, you close-mike a single speaker, something you can do in exactly the same way with a 1x12 combo. When you run either through the PA system, you get the same result.

6. A 4x12 will add 75 - 100 lbs to your rig and be difficult to transport in a standard car with other gear. If any of your gigs are up stairs, it's a pain.
#14
Quote by LivinJoke84
Is there? What are people playing these days? Combos?


Modelers. Direct into PAs. You get to hear yourself on IE's or wedge monitors.

I have some Atomic Reactor powered speakers that were designed for modelers that I'll use as a combo amp (50W 1x12 and 2x12s, 18W 1x12) occasionally for smaller venues that have Vocal-Only PAs. The Pod "bean" type modelers actually tuck in via a hot-swappable bay, and you plug in the guitar, plug into the wall and play. If you need a foot pedal, you plug that in via an ethernet cable. Done.

#15
Quote by dspellman
I've got four 4x12s in storage these days. I used to use a pair of them with a 100W Carvin XV112E (1x12 combo) onstage. They don't come out of storage any more except for occasional stage decoration.

1. 4x12s beam treble. They do NOT project over a wider area; just the opposite. This includes the slant cabinets (the slant actually makes very little difference). A single 12" speaker will begin to beam treble above about 1350Hz. Four of them in a square will begin to beam treble at around 500Hz, which means that the guitar player, off-axis, thinks he's got a great guitar tone. Meanwhile, an audience member on-axis is being hit by ear-splitting ice-pick treble and wondering why the guitar player can't hear how crappy he sounds. If you want to project over a wider area, put four 12" speakers in a single column vertically. You can do that with a full stack by pulling the wires on the left-side speakers (leaving you with a single tall column of four speakers). This will actually give you far more horizontal dispersion.


2. 4x12s produce muddy bottom end at rock band volumes. They don't sound deeper. You CAN get speaker cabinets that will sound deeper, but 4x12s usually fall off rapidly below 110Hz (and 82Hz is where your low E string lives). 100W isn't enough to reproduce good lows at rock volumes anyway. That's why there are 1500W bass amps.

3. They don't "add more loudness." It's an easy test with an SPL meter. Be sure to test off axis and at different frequencies.

4. Most clubs with inhouse sound systems won't allow you to crank a 4x12 loud enough to get feedback sustain. Fact is, they want to reduce stage volume considerably so that they can keep guitar crap out of the vocal mikes.

5. When you mike a 4x12 onstage, you close-mike a single speaker, something you can do in exactly the same way with a 1x12 combo. When you run either through the PA system, you get the same result.

6. A 4x12 will add 75 - 100 lbs to your rig and be difficult to transport in a standard car with other gear. If any of your gigs are up stairs, it's a pain.


Yeah, they do. And yes, it is easy to check with a meter. Been there, done that. Basic physics of sound at work.

#1 is both correct and incorrect, #2 is rig specific, 3 is flat out wrong, 4 is opinion, 5 is correct, 6 is both correct and opinion...

Given your concerns, it's amazing to me that bands have managed to last this long, and sound so good to so many, whilst using 4x12's...

Quote by LivinJoke84
Is there? What are people playing these days? Combos?


A lot of different things, but 4x12's are well represented, and likely will be for quite some time to come...
“Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge.”
Charles Darwin
Last edited by Arby911 at Jul 24, 2014,
#16
Quote by slash&angus
What do you guys think about 410 cabs? Big difference in low end? (In comparison with 412)


I don't like 10" speakers. They can be fine clean, but they tend to lack low end, and when paired with a lot of gain, you tend to get a very thin, cheap sound. Not full.
Spin 'round carousel when your horse isn't screwed in.

My band:
Fractured Instinct
(For fans of Death/Groove/Prog Metal)

Ibanez RGA42E
Ibanez S420
LTD H-301
Ibanez RG520
Peavey Predator USA
Douglas Grendel 725
Line 6 Pod HD500X
#18
Quote by Offworld92
I don't like 10" speakers. They can be fine clean, but they tend to lack low end, and when paired with a lot of gain, you tend to get a very thin, cheap sound. Not full.


Given that a lot of bass stacks use 10"s, I've always wondered why people think they lack low end?

Cone size isn't directly relative to frequency reproduction. An 8" speaker can reproduce bass just as well as an 18", it just takes more of them to move as much air to get the necessary volume.
“Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge.”
Charles Darwin
Last edited by Arby911 at Jul 24, 2014,
#19
Let me throw in my two bob's worth, being the owner of a 2x12 JCM900 that I've gigged with heaps. I ran it like this because with just the combo it sounded weak:



I wouldn't bother with a 4x10, if you are going that route, get a 1960. ie 4x12.
Now I use an RM100 2x12 combo on an angled amp stand. It's a closed backed combo running the same speakers as the Marshall. It kicks the 3/4 stack shown above's arse.
Gilchrist custom
Yamaha SBG500
Telecasters
Randall RM100 & RM20
Marshall JTM45 clone
Marshall JCM900 4102 (modded)
Marshall 18W clone
Fender 5F1 Champ clone
Atomic Amplifire
Marshall 1960A
Boss GT-100


Cathbard Amplification
My band
#20
Quote by dspellman
I've got four 4x12s in storage these days. I used to use a pair of them with a 100W Carvin XV112E (1x12 combo) onstage. They don't come out of storage any more except for occasional stage decoration.

1. 4x12s beam treble. They do NOT project over a wider area; just the opposite. This includes the slant cabinets (the slant actually makes very little difference). A single 12" speaker will begin to beam treble above about 1350Hz. Four of them in a square will begin to beam treble at around 500Hz, which means that the guitar player, off-axis, thinks he's got a great guitar tone. Meanwhile, an audience member on-axis is being hit by ear-splitting ice-pick treble and wondering why the guitar player can't hear how crappy he sounds. If you want to project over a wider area, put four 12" speakers in a single column vertically. You can do that with a full stack by pulling the wires on the left-side speakers (leaving you with a single tall column of four speakers). This will actually give you far more horizontal dispersion.


2. 4x12s produce muddy bottom end at rock band volumes. They don't sound deeper. You CAN get speaker cabinets that will sound deeper, but 4x12s usually fall off rapidly below 110Hz (and 82Hz is where your low E string lives). 100W isn't enough to reproduce good lows at rock volumes anyway. That's why there are 1500W bass amps.
.


1. I stood directly in front of Mark Morton's (Lamb of God) 412 cab a year ago and find your claim to be totally off-base. His tone was utterly godly (no pun intended).

2. Most of the bands I've seen in the last 20 years or so were using one or several 412 cabs. I always try to get close to the stage because I usually find the stage sound far better than the PAs in the back. They should probably be informed that they've been doing it all wrong. Some of those bands were Metallica, Megadeth, Opeth, Lamb of God, The Red Hot Chili Peppers, Pearl Jam, Tom Petty...you know, complete noobs, right?
Atmospheric dark metal w/ black and death metal influences:
(My Soundcloud page):

Pestilential Flood
#21
Quote by Arby911
Given that a lot of bass stacks use 10"s, I've always wondered why people think they lack low end?

Cone size isn't directly relative to frequency reproduction. An 8" speaker can reproduce bass just as well as an 18", it just takes more of them to move as much air to get the necessary volume.


Yes, but bass speakers are not guitar speakers, and, to the extent of my knowledge, no one makes 10" guitar speakers to be specc'd with the fullness and bass that 12" normally have. There's no reason to, 12" is the well established standard.

I spoke from within the guitar speaker context only.
Spin 'round carousel when your horse isn't screwed in.

My band:
Fractured Instinct
(For fans of Death/Groove/Prog Metal)

Ibanez RGA42E
Ibanez S420
LTD H-301
Ibanez RG520
Peavey Predator USA
Douglas Grendel 725
Line 6 Pod HD500X
#22
Quote by Offworld92
Yes, but bass speakers are not guitar speakers, and, to the extent of my knowledge, no one makes 10" guitar speakers to be specc'd with the fullness and bass that 12" normally have. There's no reason to, 12" is the well established standard.

I spoke from within the guitar speaker context only.


Fair enough, I was just wondering what drives the perception. I note that WGS makes a few 10' guitar speakers, but I've got no experience with them at all.

“Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge.”
Charles Darwin
#23
Quote by Arby911
Given that a lot of bass stacks use 10"s, I've always wondered why people think they lack low end?

Cone size isn't directly relative to frequency reproduction. An 8" speaker can reproduce bass just as well as an 18", it just takes more of them to move as much air to get the necessary volume.


10's don't lack low end -- Eminence makes some exceptional guitar speakers, for example, in their 10" range. As you say, frequency response isn't dictated by cone size. And yes, you CAN get the same sounds out of 10's that you can with 12's.

The issue isn't with speaker cone size; it's with the manufacturers. As long as they can sell 4x12s (which are simple and cheap to manufacture) and standardize on 12" speakers, they'll keep their costs low and profits high. And as long as guitar players are as stuck as they are in traditionalism, it'll stay that way.

In the late '60's and early '70's, there were a lot of options in speakers/cabinets. I have a closed-back, ported (and huge) cabinet with a pair of Altec Lansing 418-8A 15" speakers and a mids/high horn, for example. Much wider frequency response than what we get now. Guitars DO produce a wider frequency response than what a 4x12 will handle, but most guitar players have never heard their guitars reproduce either end of the spectrum. Modern bass players are using cabinets that run down to 35Hz and up to 18Khz, and that handle the power required to reproduce those frequencies.
#24
Quote by KailM
1. I stood directly in front of Mark Morton's (Lamb of God) 412 cab a year ago and find your claim to be totally off-base. His tone was utterly godly (no pun intended).

2. Most of the bands I've seen in the last 20 years or so were using one or several 412 cabs. I always try to get close to the stage because I usually find the stage sound far better than the PAs in the back. They should probably be informed that they've been doing it all wrong. Some of those bands were Metallica, Megadeth, Opeth, Lamb of God, The Red Hot Chili Peppers, Pearl Jam, Tom Petty...you know, complete noobs, right?


I've been backstage with a lot of those acts. I know what they're actually using, and what you're actually hearing. And I can tell you what you WILL be hearing in the future. Metallica is already using modelers, as is Neal Schon of Journey. He still has five 4x12s arrayed across the stage, but they've gone for much lower stage volume these days (he has tinnitus) and what the arena hears has little to do with those 4x12s.

A lot of acts still using tube amps are still using 4x12s as stage decoration and to give them the feel of playing "in a room," but the bulk of arena sound doesn't come from 4x12s, but from things like Palmer load boxes/DI setups. Many use the 4x12 as a kind of on-stage monitor, with the feed coming from tube amp ->Palmer ->mixer ->monitor bus ->4x12.

Tom Petty? Look behind the wall of old Vox Super Beatles and you'll find that Mike Campbell is using little combo amps. The bulk of his sound comes from a 1963 Fender Princeton and a 1954 Fender tweed Deluxe.

A recent look behind Clapton's wall of 4x12s will show that he had, below the stage, a small circle of combo amps (and one Leslie) that were miked.

Among the people using Palmer PGA-04s onstage: Keith Richards/Rolling Stones, Alex Lifeson/Rush, Warren Cucurollo/Duran Duran, as well as Eddie Van Halen and Def Leppard. Geddy Lee: an Avalon U5 DI box, a Palmer speaker simulator, and a SansAmp RBI bass distortion unit.

But, as you say, complete noobs.
Last edited by dspellman at Jul 25, 2014,