#2
Yes, it does go between F# minor and G# minor. This means you can play F# minor and G# minor. Of course, you can play notes that don't fit into F# minor and G# minor, such as the major 6th or minor 2nd, or any others, (and I encourage you to do so if it sounds good) but that won't suddenly make it modal.

Also, please don't use the names Ionian or Aeolian. Just use major and minor.
#3
starts in f# aeolian, goes to g#aeolian

middle section sounds like A lydian to me...which to me would mean id be playing my familiar c# aeolian shapes and focusing some on the d# note to bring out the A lydian texture. (D# being the sharp 4th of A giving the lydian flavor)
#4
The middle section (clean section) doesn't really sound like A lydian to me, sounds more like G# natural minor or G# dorian.
#5
Quote by JohnProphet
starts in f# aeolian, goes to g#aeolian

middle section sounds like A lydian to me...which to me would mean id be playing my familiar c# aeolian shapes and focusing some on the d# note to bring out the A lydian texture. (D# being the sharp 4th of A giving the lydian flavor)

Now justify why it's A Lydian, rather than A major. You seem to have no concept of accidentals and non-diatonic notes.

Edit:
I don't think it's in Amajor, at all, btw. I'm just making a point.

I think it's in G#minor.


I have no idea why you (and others) have this need to label everything a mode -- especially when it's not a modal song/piece.
Last edited by crazysam23_Atax at Jul 31, 2014,
#6
Quote by crazysam23_Atax
Now justify why it's A Lydian, rather than A major. You seem to have no concept of accidentals and non-diatonic notes.

Edit:
I don't think it's in Amajor, at all, btw. I'm just making a point.

I think it's in G#minor.


I have no idea why you (and others) have this need to label everything a mode -- especially when it's not a modal song/piece.


Thanks for your answer. The only thing I still don't understand is the little melody that sounds in the backing track in the minute 0:48, the notes don't seem to correspond to the G# minor scale.
#7
Quote by Ryan7418
Thanks for your answer. The only thing I still don't understand is the little melody that sounds in the backing track in the minute 0:48, the notes don't seem to correspond to the G# minor scale.

I'd just treat those notes as non-diatonic notes. To me, that phrase or whatever, doesn't sound long enough to imply a key change.
#8
Quote by crazysam23_Atax
I'd just treat those notes as non-diatonic notes. To me, that phrase or whatever, doesn't sound long enough to imply a key change.


The melody sound like G# dorian to me, wouldn't that mean that the whole clean section is in G# dorian?
#9
Quote by crazysam23_Atax
Now justify why it's A Lydian, rather than A major. You seem to have no concept of accidentals and non-diatonic notes.

Edit:
I don't think it's in Amajor, at all, btw. I'm just making a point.

If something uses the Lydian scale a lot, then why not just call it lydian?!!1 It doesn't have to be modal harmony. You can have a tonal piece of music and say it's mixolydian if it uses the b7 extensively, because that describes the sound of the damn thing. It's in major and uses b7 all the time = MIXOLYDIAN!

Who even writes modal music anymore? It's largely irrelevant today so why reserve the terminology to only modal music?

If someone says "it's in G mixolydian or it uses G mixolydian" I immediately know what kind of a sound to expect.

Yes, technically it is still G major, but saying G mixolydian to describe it is not wrong imo.
Last edited by Elintasokas at Jul 31, 2014,
#10
Quote by Ryan7418
The melody sound like G# dorian to me, wouldn't that mean that the whole clean section is in G# dorian?

1) A single melody may or may not determine the key of a section. 2) In this case, the melody does NOT cause the entire section to be G# dorian.

The clean section is in G#minor. The whole time.

Quote by Elintasokas
You can have a tonal piece of music and say it's mixolydian if it uses the b7 extensively, because that describes the sound of the damn thing. It's in major and uses b7 all the time = MIXOLYDIAN!

Or we could just call it major (or maybe even "major with a b7"), because it is major. Why do we need to label it "Mixolydian"?

Who even writes modal music anymore? It's largely irrelevant today so why reserve the terminology to only modal music?

Why should we use wrongful terminology, though? Never mind that using it in such a manner could cause confusion and/or ignores the concepts of modes completely.
Last edited by crazysam23_Atax at Jul 31, 2014,
#11
Quote by crazysam23_Atax
1) A single melody may or may not determine the key of a section. 2) In this case, the melody does NOT cause the entire section to be G# dorian.

The clean section is in G#minor. The whole time.


Or we could just call it major (or maybe even "major with a b7"), because it is major. Why do we need to label it "Mixolydian"?


Yeah, I wasn't referring to the link OP provided. I was just speaking generally.

I'm just saying it's okay to say "it uses G mixolydian" because that describes the sound better than just saying G major in some cases. You could say "well, the part is in G major, but every 7th is a b7." Well what do you have then? The same damn thing.
#12
Quote by crazysam23_Atax
Now justify why it's A Lydian, rather than A major. You seem to have no concept of accidentals and non-diatonic notes.

Edit:
I don't think it's in Amajor, at all, btw. I'm just making a point.

I think it's in G#minor.


I have no idea why you (and others) have this need to label everything a mode -- especially when it's not a modal song/piece.


yeah, I obviously didnt listen to it that closely. I always use Aeolian shapes to solo. So over that section I was using C# aeolian. I was thinking that open A string was coming around for the 2nd time but it is only there once. C# aeolian shapes in the (temporary) key of A would give me A lydian. At least thats how I view it. C# aeolian and G# aeolian...one note difference. I was playing in the higher register and I didnt catch that, but the A note from C# aeolian probably fits anyway in that higher register. In any case if u play in a lower register the A# note (from G# minor) sounds better

So on another listen it sounds like G#minor but only to a point because the open A string isnt in G# minor. After the open A it sounds like that particular guitar goes D,E,D#...so bye bye G# aeolian. Definitely not my style of track with the quick changes after the open A string


for the sake of clarity, is there tab or a chord chart online for that track?
Last edited by JohnProphet at Jul 31, 2014,
#13
Quote by crazysam23_Atax
The clean section is in G#minor. The whole time.


Since this forum loves to split hairs, by "minor" you mean Aeolian? or you mean minor just in the sense of the G# is a minor chord?
#14
Quote by JohnProphet
Since this forum loves to split hairs, by "minor" you mean Aeolian? or you mean minor just in the sense of the G# is a minor chord?

Lol, no. He actually means minor. In the tonal world, you should speak about major and minor, not Ionian and Aeolian. It may sound cooler than saying major and minor, but it is simply the wrong terminology to use.

He means the G# minor key.

Ionian and Aeolian are terms that belong to modal music, which is a little different. In modal music, you don't even have chord functions like you do in tonal music.
Last edited by Elintasokas at Jul 31, 2014,
#15
Quote by Elintasokas
Lol, no. He actually means minor. In the tonal world, you should speak about major and minor, not Ionian and Aeolian. It may sound cooler than saying major and minor, but it is simply the wrong terminology to use.

He means the G# minor key.

Ionian and Aeolian are terms that belong to modal music, which is a little different. In modal music, you don't even have chord functions like you do in tonal music.


yeah, in that case I guess a few million websites and instructional books and vids will have to be corrected. Thats gonna be a fun job

edit. Should we start with Yngwie or Vinnie Moore first? Obviously they are uninformed.... or maybe all of the sites categorizing the Beatles songs into modes?
Last edited by JohnProphet at Jul 31, 2014,
#16
Quote by JohnProphet
yeah, in that case I guess a few million websites and instructional books and vids will have to be corrected. Thats gonna be a fun job

edit. Should we start with Yngwie

It's a well known fact that Yngwie's terminology is screwed up. A classic example is him calling the natural seventh in harmonic minor a #7. That's obviously because he only plays harmonic minor 24/7 so he makes his analysis based on minor instead of major, which is how it's actually supposed to be done.
Last edited by Elintasokas at Jul 31, 2014,
#17
http://www.ars-nova.com/Theory%20Q&A/Q144.html

Question: What are the essential differences between modal and tonal harmony? - Stephen

Answer: Phew. That's a deep one, but I'll wade in from the shallow end. First there's the historical distinction between mode and key. There's a fine book by Joel Lester, Between Modes and Keys, that provides interesting detail about the transition from modal to harmonic thinking. Modal music was primarily concerned with the horizontal or melodic aspects of music; "chord progressions" did not come along until later.

But I suspect you're really asking about the term as applied in jazz or folk music. In that case the term "modal harmony" really should just refer to building chords using the notes found in one of the old modes, rather than sticking to major or minor scales. This is not actually "modal" in the original sense of the word because the modes preceded chordal harmony. But the term could be used to describe chord progressions in which triads are built in the usual manner on notes of a scale, using the scale tones, except that the scale is not major or the usual minor, but one of the modal patterns.
#18
Quote by JohnProphet
http://www.ars-nova.com/Theory%20Q&A/Q144.html

Question: What are the essential differences between modal and tonal harmony? - Stephen

Answer: Phew. That's a deep one, but I'll wade in from the shallow end. First there's the historical distinction between mode and key. There's a fine book by Joel Lester, Between Modes and Keys, that provides interesting detail about the transition from modal to harmonic thinking. Modal music was primarily concerned with the horizontal or melodic aspects of music; "chord progressions" did not come along until later.

But I suspect you're really asking about the term as applied in jazz or folk music. In that case the term "modal harmony" really should just refer to building chords using the notes found in one of the old modes, rather than sticking to major or minor scales. This is not actually "modal" in the original sense of the word because the modes preceded chordal harmony. But the term could be used to describe chord progressions in which triads are built in the usual manner on notes of a scale, using the scale tones, except that the scale is not major or the usual minor, but one of the modal patterns.

Yes? That's actually a point I agreed with in one of my previous posts on this thread. It's exactly what I was talking about in response to crazysam's messages.

However, Ionian = major and Aeolian = minor.

They are the same things. The only difference is that Ionian and Aeolian refer to modal music, which you are NOT composing/playing, while minor and major refer to tonal music which you ARE composing/playing.

Do you now see why I am encouraging you to use major and minor instead of Ionian and Aeolian?
#19
Quote by Elintasokas
Yes? That's actually a point I agreed with in one of my previous posts on this thread. It's exactly what I was talking about in response to crazysam's messages.

However, Ionian = major and Aeolian = minor.

They are the same things. The only difference is that Ionian and Aeolian refer to modal music, which you are NOT composing/playing, while minor and major refer to tonal music which you ARE composing/playing.

Do you now see why I am encouraging you to use major and minor instead of Ionian and Aeolian?



wow, going in circles hardcore.

you agree with the article or not? it is stating that the term "modal" isnt used today as it was originally used but today can be used to describe chord progressions built on modal patterns as opposed to strict major or minor scales.

So wait, let me guess. If I build a chord progression in the key of D based on the D Dorian notes, you would refer to it as "based on D Dorian" instead of "D Dorian?"

I hope u dont mean that or I will simply lose faith in mankind. That would be the absolute zenith of hairsplitting

BTW, Paul Gilbert and Joe Satriani are idiots also...I am going to try to reach them and correct their falsehoods. Its weird, the best musicians in the world use the modal names to refer to some of their chord progressions....and like a fool I agree with them. I must be a sycophant at heart

Pretty sure Vai is an idiot also
#20
Quote by JohnProphet
wow, going in circles hardcore.

you agree with the article or not? it is stating that the term "modal" isnt used today as it was originally used but today can be used to describe chord progressions built on modal patterns as opposed to strict major or minor scales.

I AGREE WITH THIS, but Aeolian and Ionian ARE strict major and minor so why can't you just call them major and minor?! In a tonal context they are supposed to be called major and minor. If only to avoid confusion. There's no benefit to calling them by their modal names. It doesn't make you sound like a musical (theory) genius. It will only make you sound like a dumbass to other musicians who can tell the difference between modal and tonal.
Last edited by Elintasokas at Jul 31, 2014,
#21
Quote by Elintasokas
I AGREE WITH THIS, but Aeolian and Ionian ARE strict major and minor so why can't you just call them major and minor?! In a tonal context they are supposed to be called major and minor. If only to avoid confusion. There's no benefit to calling them by their modal names. It doesn't make you sound like a musical genius. It will only make you sound like a dumbass to other musicians.


seems weird to call Ionian "major" but then call mixolydian "mixolydian"....why be inconsistent?

I can be playing Dorian or Phyrgian and playing "minor" music all day long


peace, way past bedtime
#22
Quote by JohnProphet
seems weird to call Ionian "major" but then call mixolydian "mixolydian"....why be inconsistent?

I can be playing Dorian or Phyrgian and playing "minor" music all day long


peace, way past bedtime

It has to do with the fact that a piece can be either in a major key or a minor key. Have you ever heard of a mixolydian key? I didn't think so, either.

At some point in history, the modes were essentially just reduced to two and renamed to major and minor. The usual practice is just seeing everything as being either in a major or minor key and treating the modal notes as accidentals. However, I don't think it's entirely wrong to describe something as being based on for instance, G mixolydian. Having said that, it's still technically in G major. There is no key called G mixolydian.
#23
Quote by Elintasokas
At some point in history, the modes were essentially just reduced to two and renamed to major and minor. The usual practice is just seeing everything as being either in a major or minor key and treating the modal notes as accidentals. However, I don't think it's entirely wrong to describe something as being based on for instance, G mixolydian. Having said that, it's still technically in G major. There is no key called G mixolydian.


And that's exactly why we should say Ionian and Aeolian instead of major and minor when referring to these scales. It's so we can distinguish the scales from the keys. By saying that a song is in G major you could be talking about Ionian, Lydian or Mixolydian so in order to avoid the confusion it's easier to just say Ionian.
#25
Quote by Elintasokas
It has to do with the fact that a piece can be either in a major key or a minor key. Have you ever heard of a mixolydian key? I didn't think so, either.

At some point in history, the modes were essentially just reduced to two and renamed to major and minor. The usual practice is just seeing everything as being either in a major or minor key and treating the modal notes as accidentals. However, I don't think it's entirely wrong to describe something as being based on for instance, G mixolydian. Having said that, it's still technically in G major. There is no key called G mixolydian.


yeah, it gets redundant after a while but....thats not really my take on it. I would say "Im in the key of G"...I have never used the phrase "Key of G mixolydian" in my life.


scenario. Dude #1 is chunking away on a G power chord....dunno, maybe he gets bored and throws in a D power chord just for giggles. Dude #2 takes his guitar out of the case and proceeds to play melodies using the G mixolydian scale. Sounds great, chicks dig it. He gets bored and starts to play G Dorian. Sounds great, chicks dig it. He gets cocky and plays in G Aeolian for a while but the chicks dont dig it so he finishes off with G Ionian. The rhythm guitar player leaves with the chicks so the jam is over.

In my book they were playing "in the key G" the whole time. The lead player took turns playing in various modes. Yes, I am sure folks will disagree because that is the nature of this forum I suppose.
#26
Quote by 91RG350
Modes.

It aint just us.

Piano players, too.

Piano players forum modes debate


that Piano discussion was nothing. On here, people would say "no, you only THINK you played a G chord....no G chords have been played since the renaissance"
#27
Quote by JohnProphet
Since this forum loves to split hairs

Actually, this forum doesn't love to split hairs. It's just that most of the regulars get sick of morons insisting everything is modal. It seems every time someone goes, "Is this G# Aeolian?" (and then gets rightfully corrected, since the right term is "G# minor"), we have new guys and/or non-regulars crawl out of the woodwork and start up the same modes argument (with the same misinformation) that all the regs have heard 100 times before.
It's amazing to me how many people fail to understand many of the basic principles of music theory (including you, btw) and yet think they can debate all day long about modes. It wouldn't bother me if most of these "geniuses" didn't pass on the same, old tired bunch of misinformation about modes and keys that we've been hearing on this forum since...forever.

Quote by Elintasokas
Lol, no. He actually means minor. In the tonal world, you should speak about major and minor, not Ionian and Aeolian. It may sound cooler than saying major and minor, but it is simply the wrong terminology to use.

He means the G# minor key.

Ionian and Aeolian are terms that belong to modal music, which is a little different. In modal music, you don't even have chord functions like you do in tonal music.

Thank you for the excellent assist from Elintasokas.

Quote by SR7s
And that's exactly why we should say Ionian and Aeolian instead of major and minor when referring to these scales. It's so we can distinguish the scales from the keys.

And why do we need to do this? Scales > keys. What really matters is the key, not the scales. Scales are peanuts when it comes to music and composition. They matter about 0.01% as much as many people think they do. Stop focusing on scales; start focusing on the key.


Now...can we put the damn modes stuff to rest now? This backing track isn't modal; stop trying to treat it as such. End of story.
Last edited by crazysam23_Atax at Aug 1, 2014,
#28
The backing track uses a lot of accidentals.

The chords are F#m then G#m then F#m again.

Then at 0:41 it goes like G#m-B-E-A-D-E-D#-C#-B-A#
G#m-B-E-A-D-E-F#m.

I would say the beginning is in F#m, then it modulates to G#m and back to F#m.

The beginning of the part that starts at 0:41 sounds like G#m to me. I don't know about the A-D-E part. It just seems like a transition to the D# major chord. I don't know which key I would put it in.

It ends in F#m. But the D#-C#-B-A# part sounds like D#m to me. And then when the G#m is played again, it sounds like it's still in D#m.

This is just what I'm hearing.
Quote by AlanHB
Just remember that there are no boring scales, just boring players.

Gear

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#29
Is it just me, or does the guy not even sound like he's playing to the backing track things that actually sound like they fit?

The track itself is a bit nebulous to start with, and I'm hearing more of a harmonic cluster or motif, that's monotonal, rather than a progression or key. I'm not hearing motion, rather a loop.

He literally to me just sounds like he's superimposing patterns and licks against it, but I'm not hearing many instances of where they actually sound like they go together.

I say that.. but understand I teach on 6 strings in E standard tuning, so it may just be that my ear is simply not conditioned or attuned to music played in this lower harmonic range, and so the voicings may not be "catching" my ear as clearly, on 7-8 strings, and drop tuning (beyond the D or Eb, and occasionally open G that I teach and and more harmonically calibrated towards)

Best,

Sean
Last edited by Sean0913 at Aug 1, 2014,
#30
Quote by Sean0913
Is it just me, or does the guy not even sound like he's playing to the backing track things that actually sound like they fit?

The track itself is a bit nebulous to start with, and I'm hearing more of a harmonic cluster or motif, that's monotonal, rather than a progression or key. I'm not hearing motion, rather a loop.

He literally to me just sounds like he's superimposing patterns and licks against it, but I'm not hearing many instances of where they actually sound like they go together.

I say that.. but understand I teach on 6 strings in E standard tuning, so it may just be that my ear is simply not conditioned or attuned to music played in this lower harmonic range, and so the voicings may not be "catching" my ear as clearly, on 7-8 strings, and drop tuning (beyond the D or Eb, and occasionally open G that I teach and and more harmonically calibrated towards)

Best,

Sean


I play a 7 string, so I'm definitely used to the range and it sounds like that to me as well.
#31
Quote by Sean0913
Is it just me, or does the guy not even sound like he's playing to the backing track things that actually sound like they fit?

The track itself is a bit nebulous to start with, and I'm hearing more of a harmonic cluster or motif, that's monotonal, rather than a progression or key. I'm not hearing motion, rather a loop.

He literally to me just sounds like he's superimposing patterns and licks against it, but I'm not hearing many instances of where they actually sound like they go together.

I was hearing a lot of this too. Honestly, because of the ambiguity, I'm hesitant to make it any more complex than F#m, G#m, F#m. As Maggara said, there's a lot of accidentals. And, because of that, I almost felt like the key was hard to pin down half the time. But I think saying it starts in F#m, then modulates to G#m, and ends in F#m is a fair statement. We could argue about the details in between a bit, but I don't know how productive that would be, really.


I really felt that the lead parts didn't flow though. I almost had to tune them out, because they were rather distracting. It was like he was just playing patterns (as you mention), rather than trying to fit it to the backing track.
#33
That sounds a lot better. It actually seems fluid, most of the time now. And it seems like you had more of an "idea" planned out, rather than sounding like a random collection of licks/scales.
#34
Quote by crazysam23_Atax
That sounds a lot better. It actually seems fluid, most of the time now. And it seems like you had more of an "idea" planned out, rather than sounding like a random collection of licks/scales.


Thanks man! Glad you liked it. I had to upload it again, here it is in case anyone wants to listen to it...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rvk6KrV-Pr8
#35
thats kinda cool looking but if i close my eyes and just listen all the appeal goes out the window

you're showing off cool techniques and scale/arpeggio runs but it falls flat

esp when you get onto the sustain notes, idk if your intonation's just off or if you're just not fretting correctly, but i remember when i was a shred-head it took me a long time to figure out that i was playing fast because i didn't know how to just hold notes and make it sound good. try playing to that backing track just holding notes out without any vibrato - there are a couple spots where it just sounds...well, bad, in terms of your finger tone