Page 1 of 2
#1
How are guitar players who are so admired by many other guitar players and fans perceived by musicologists? People like Steve Vai, Joe Satriani, Guthrie Govan etc.

We are talking about musicologists here now, people who really know the history and working of music. I do not even think guitar is looked up as anything special in the popular sense anyway but yet there are always that select handful of guitar players that everyone thinks is some kind of god. If they were so artful, why are they not regarded as anything special by musicologists?
#3
Well I would find it sort of interesting. I bet they just think of them as people who just managed to conjure up something musically satisfying (nothing more than an effect on the ear), but not in the real artistic way of what others have done in the past. But then again, not everyone can be a prodigy.
#4
I think a lot has to do with that people don't understand. All of us here play guitar, so of course we can appreciate stuff like what Vai, Satriani and Govan are doing, cause we know it is extremely difficult to achieve and requires a lot of discipline and time. Someone who is not a instrumentalist or guitar player don't have that point of view.

Another thing that is worth mentioning is that instrumental guitar music, like that made by players like Vai, are influenced by other styles. But it is rare to see the influence of instrumental guitar leave that realm. (if that makes sense). What i mean is that players like vai learn from a lot of styles and players like rock, blues, funk etc and takes influence from those styles and brings them into the style of instrumental guitar music. But it however rare that that happens in reverse, that the instrumental guitar scene influences the rock, blues, jazz or funk scene. Of course the guitar players in those styles of music might be influenced by instrumental guitar music, but that is about it. It is mainly a style of music associated with our community, the guitar players.
Fusion and jazz musician, a fan of most music.

Quote by Guthrie Govan
“If you steal from one person it's theft, and if you steal from lots of people it's research”


Quote by Chick Corea
"Only play what you hear. If you don't hear anything, don't play anything."
#5
Quote by Unreal T
If they were so artful, why are they not regarded as anything special by musicologists?

But the point of the thread is that you don't know how musicologists perceive them. Maybe they love them

Well they don't because guitar is shit and boring and the people they play it piss around talking about anything but music but yeah
#6
Quote by willT08

Well they don't because guitar is shit and boring and the people they play it piss around talking about anything but music but yeah

So what are you doing on a guitar forum? Go troll around somewhere else.
#8
I find this a very interesting topic to discuss. MapOfYourHead, what guitar virtuosos do you consider "special" and what do you look for in one? I'm asking because you're a musicologist.

Also don't insult the guitar, it's a wonderful instrument with lots of artistic capabilities.
"I don't know what you're trying to suggest. There's no shame in taking what you need to hold your position!"

Super Buu (DBZ) on assimilation (it could also apply to blues guitar and guitar soloing in general).
#9
I asses virtuosos based on the same requirements as I asses all music I review as an esteemed musicologist in the New Compositional Times: originality. Most guitar virtuosos fill their music with ridiculous musical clichés, terrible singing, and wild abuse of their talent for zero artistic gain. Guthrie had it, and has seemingly lost it. Becker once had it. Vai started strong with Zappa and Public Image Ltd, but then the 80's happened. Yngwie can't find a good band to be part of and can't slow down. Joe Satriani is lost in a sea of modes. Maybe if these guys spent more time listening to music and less time practicing they would be more interesting to listen to.
#10
Do you mind elaborating on what Guthrie lost?

I don't mean that in an antagonistic way or anything, I'm genuinely interested i your opinion.


I generally don't like instrumental guitar music because imo most players cant't write at all. I only really like Guthrie. He does things I dislike but it's worth listening to for the things he does right. Like a friend, he does things that annoy you but it's worth it for the relationship. I like him because he has a definite personality.

And I like Paul Gilbert. I think he's interesting because he started out as an awful shredder but, sometime in the mid 2000's he became self aware and started progressing away from that. I think it's fun to hear his progress.
#11
The way the guitar adds to the music is all that matters to me really, nice to be technical but not really what the average listener wants. Same with Bass. I find for instance, progressive wise, Steve Howe to be about 100 times better than John Petrucci, and I'm pretty sure John would agree with that statement too. John Petrucci is technically better though for sure.
#12
Quote by Elintasokas
So what are you doing on a guitar forum? Go troll around somewhere else.

what all of you lot are doing posing as musicians perplexes me just as much
#15
Quote by Duaneclapdrix
Do you mind elaborating on what Guthrie lost?

I don't mean that in an antagonistic way or anything, I'm genuinely interested i your opinion.


He has't done anything of note since Erotic Cakes. Being part of Asia also lumps him in with the rest of the virtuosos in that he can't find a good band. No point being a quality guitarist if the rest of the band you're in makes shit music.
Last edited by MapOfYourHead at Aug 4, 2014,
#16
Quote by Unreal T
How are guitar players who are so admired by many other guitar players and fans perceived by musicologists? People like Steve Vai, Joe Satriani, Guthrie Govan etc.

We are talking about musicologists here now, people who really know the history and working of music. I do not even think guitar is looked up as anything special in the popular sense anyway but yet there are always that select handful of guitar players that everyone thinks is some kind of god. If they were so artful, why are they not regarded as anything special by musicologists?


can you name any "musicologists?"
#17
Quote by Unreal T
How are guitar players who are so admired by many other guitar players and fans perceived by musicologists? People like Steve Vai, Joe Satriani, Guthrie Govan etc.

We are talking about musicologists here now, people who really know the history and working of music. I do not even think guitar is looked up as anything special in the popular sense anyway but yet there are always that select handful of guitar players that everyone thinks is some kind of god. If they were so artful, why are they not regarded as anything special by musicologists?



Idk what musicologists would say, but I personally don't care too much for those guitarists really. They tend to come up a lot when people are talking about great guitarists, and they are definitely skilled, and I have nothing against them, but there are other guitarists that I prefer.

Like, Tommy Emmanuel, Joe Pass, Stanley Jordan, and though I haven't listen to a whole of him, Greg Howe.

These guys as far as instrumentalists on guitar I prefer. But there are so many categories of guitar as well, such as guys who play set pieces, or songwriters like Mayer and Lennon.

I'm not familiar with exactly what a musicologist is, but if you try to bring anything sort of objectively analytical into the realm of music, then you need to use theory to sort of make judgements on the quality of musicians, whereas I don't find that's really suitable.

That said, I think there will be some indications, such as some guys might just follow trends and copy things other people do, and aren't' particularly creative, or tend to kind of play pattern based, switching between patterns rather than evocative use of tones and rhythm. Meaning some might play a major scale and nothing but that, but it doesn't sound like "a major scale" it sounds like just some nice phrasing, and then others might just cycle through some patterns that just sound like drills of those patterns linked together.

But still, at the end of the day, music is subjective. So, it doesn't really matter what anyone else says about your music. What matters, is that you like it, and you enjoy it, and hopefully a number of other people like it and enjoy it as well.

There does not, and will never, exist a musician that makes music that everyone likes. And ironically the judge that would judge music by theory alone, would be just like the artist that judges music by theory alone, and therefore makes music by theory alone, and so one would likely praise the other. But, for me, this is not how to judge whether or not music is any good. The factors to judge, to me, are ambiguous, and subtle, and all I can use to judge them is to listen and decide whether I like that or not. Same thing as food. I'm not gonna dissect the recipe and whatnot to decide whether or not I like a meal. Tasting would be enough, although admittedly, knowing the skill required into making certain things, might make me appreciate the abilities of the cook, which would add to it. But skill that goes into making food I don't like, doesn't help me want to eat the food.
#18
Quote by MapOfYourHead
I asses virtuosos based on the same requirements as I asses all music I review as an esteemed musicologist in the New Compositional Times: originality. Most guitar virtuosos fill their music with ridiculous musical clichés, terrible singing, and wild abuse of their talent for zero artistic gain. Guthrie had it, and has seemingly lost it. Becker once had it. Vai started strong with Zappa and Public Image Ltd, but then the 80's happened. Yngwie can't find a good band to be part of and can't slow down. Joe Satriani is lost in a sea of modes. Maybe if these guys spent more time listening to music and less time practicing they would be more interesting to listen to.

Wow, that was brilliant. Who'd you say you were esteemed by, again?
#19
I think the only interesting analysis would be a historical one (i.e., Satriani’s pitch axis compositional technique vs. from that of, say, Bela Bartok; or Lendvai’s analysis of Bartok).


Otherwise, do you want to hear about gender discrimination in Steve Vai’s scale choices, or how pop-culture TV commercials influenced the episodic markers in Satriani’s “Circles.”

Seriously, at the end of the day, you might not give a crap about what musicologists think about anything.
#20
Quote by fingrpikingood

There does not, and will never, exist a musician that makes music that everyone likes.


Lady Gaga

Edit:

Quote by Harmosis
Wow, that was brilliant. Who'd you say you were esteemed by, again?


It's a very noteworthy publication I'll have u know
Last edited by MapOfYourHead at Aug 4, 2014,
#21
Quote by MapOfYourHead


Edit:


It's a very noteworthy publication I'll have u know


I have no doubt
#22
Quote by MapOfYourHead
He has't done anything of note since Erotic Cakes. Being part of Asia also lumps him in with the rest of the virtuosos in that he can't find a good band. No point being a quality guitarist if the rest of the band you're in makes shit music.


dizzee rascal!!!

Quote by MapOfYourHead
Lady Gaga


i love lady gaga but i've heard tons of people say they hate her
I'm an idiot and I accidentally clicked the "Remove all subscriptions" button. If it seems like I'm ignoring you, I'm not, I'm just no longer subscribed to the thread. If you quote me or do the @user thing at me, hopefully it'll notify me through my notifications and I'll get back to you.
Quote by K33nbl4d3
I'll have to put the Classic T models on my to-try list. Shame the finish options there are Anachronism Gold, Nuclear Waste and Aged Clown, because in principle the plaintop is right up my alley.

Quote by K33nbl4d3
Presumably because the CCF (Combined Corksniffing Forces) of MLP and Gibson forums would rise up against them, plunging the land into war.

Quote by T00DEEPBLUE
Et tu, br00tz?
#24
Quote by Dave_Mc
dizzee rascal!!!


i love lady gaga but i've heard tons of people say they hate her


There was nothing of his own there apart from ridiculous solos that were completely out of place

Gaga has something for everyone. They're just being edgy
#25
Quote by MapOfYourHead
There was nothing of his own there apart from ridiculous solos that were completely out of place

Gaga has something for everyone. They're just being edgy


There are a lot of people that categorically don't like lady gaga. But I didn't mean it like there is no artist that can make a number of songs that, in their totality, will have at least one person like them. I don't think that's true. I think one individual can make huge varieties of music. The beetles definitely came close to that as well. They have such a variety of music that they must be very close to having at least one song somebody likes. Even if they don't know it, and it's a cover someone did.

Lady Gaga is further from that to me. I did mean everybody, like 80 year old people, people that listen exclusively to hip hop, country, what have you. There are a number of people that would really dislike lady gaga. A lot of people hate stuff that is popular purely for the fact that it is popular.

But the real point I meant to make, was that no person can write a song that everyone will like.

I think I'd also choose someone like John Williams before Lady Gaga. But still, that would not be music people would generally put on their playlist.
Last edited by fingrpikingood at Aug 4, 2014,
#28
Quote by MapOfYourHead
He has't done anything of note since Erotic Cakes. Being part of Asia also lumps him in with the rest of the virtuosos in that he can't find a good band. No point being a quality guitarist if the rest of the band you're in makes shit music.


Not sure if you're being serious...

I'm trying to be nice, and give you more credit...and not assume that this is meant to be intelligent discourse, and is more a matter of satire, or something said for shock effect.

"Glass houses, stones...", and all that, considered...

Best,

Sean
#29
Quote by fingrpikingood
But the real point I meant to make, was that no person can write a song that everyone will like.
Except Beethoven, of course.
Si
#30
Quote by willT08
what all of you lot are doing posing as musicians perplexes me just as much

Says the guy who doesn't even study music. Get out of here, Will!
#31
Quote by crazysam23_Atax
Says the guy who doesn't even study music. Get out of here, Will!

I study sound, as in, actual music.

You all study dots on lines.
#32
Quote by Sean0913
Not sure if you're being serious...

I'm trying to be nice, and give you more credit...and not assume that this is meant to be intelligent discourse, and is more a matter of satire, or something said for shock effect.

"Glass houses, stones...", and all that, considered...

Best,

Sean


Sean, a musicologists critique is objective and absolute. Respeck it
#34
Quote by willT08
I study sound, as in, actual music.

You all study dots on lines.

And all the great composers of the past (and present) have been experts at drawing dots on lines. Your argument is invalid.

I heard one piece by you and it was just seemingly random monophonic intervals changing at a steady pace. Wow, amazing! Totally beats drawing dots on lines.
Last edited by Elintasokas at Aug 5, 2014,
#35
Quote by Elintasokas
And all the great composers of the past (and present) have been experts at drawing dots on lines. Your argument is invalid.


It is not a prerequisite to write music though. Extremely helpful, but not necessary.

And Will, dots on lines is music that can be studied
#37
Quote by Unreal T
I do not even think guitar is looked up as anything special in the popular sense anyway but yet there are always that select handful of guitar players that everyone thinks is some kind of god. If they were so artful, why are they not regarded as anything special by musicologists?


I would wager that most people who are drawn ( sucked in ?) to musicology as a University discipline are simply not into that kind of music and therefore don't give it any attention.

The silence doesn't really speak to the quality,contribution, or artistic validity of these players so much as the bias of the discipline, which is simply focused on other things.

Also, your premise that an artist requires some sort of approval from such a marginal discipline is questionable. I would argue that value judgments coming from musicologists are no more useful than those of music reviewers, who are also full of sh*t most of the time.
#38
Quote by willT08
do you lot really listen to guthrie govan as like, just home listening?

christ


Yes, among other things.

Why limit yourself and not explore? I enjoy a lot of the "popular guitarists" often mentioned on these forums, like Vai, Satriani, Govan, Holdsworth etc. But i also enjoy a bunch of musicians from other walks of life. Blues musicians, Jazz musicians, Funk, Soul, Rock, Classical, Bluegrass, Country, Electronic etc. Both guitarists and other instruments. What would be the big deal with listening to people like Guthrie for casual home listening?
Fusion and jazz musician, a fan of most music.

Quote by Guthrie Govan
“If you steal from one person it's theft, and if you steal from lots of people it's research”


Quote by Chick Corea
"Only play what you hear. If you don't hear anything, don't play anything."
#39
Quote by MapOfYourHead
He has't done anything of note since Erotic Cakes. Being part of Asia also lumps him in with the rest of the virtuosos in that he can't find a good band. No point being a quality guitarist if the rest of the band you're in makes shit music.


You don't like The Aristocrats? Granted, they're not the perfect band, but I think they've got some good tunes.

I agree that Asia's pretty bad tho
#40
Most musicologists have probably forgotten that the electric guitar exists, and are instead too busy trying to come up with a fresh perspective on Beethoven's late string quartets, or looking for an urlinie in Rite of Spring to show that actually Stravinsky was deeply rooted in the Austro-Germanic tradition.

Musicologists are on the whole, boring and dry, the kind of people that you want to avoid at a party as they'll tell you the topic of their latest paper, and promise you "it's not as pretentious as it sounds". Much like guitarists, in fact.
Page 1 of 2