#1
Hi,

I read in many interviews about Kiss' alive album. they said they removed a couple of mistakes. And I wonder, how the hell do they do that? Nothing comes in my mind which can explain how they do it.
#2
If they're talking about playing mistakes, you can just take out that part of the recording and re-do it.
#3
Yeah, as it's (presumably) an older album, when technology for correcting things was more basic and not as successful, probably just a case of overdubs.
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#5
Yeah, or if you mess up a part in a verse that's played the same in another verse, you can copy a snippet and paste it over to the new one.

They may have digitized their tape from the original sessions and found that it was much easier to make some edits that may have passed on the first time around, that's my guess.
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#6
If you raed Ace's book he mentions going in the studio and fixing parts. The KISS Alive album was recorded on a reel-to-reel multitrack so they had pretty good separation of the instruments to drop in and correct things. David Bowie once said that any artist who says their album is totally live with no "fixes" is either a fool or a liar. It's not always about mistakes. It's often about technical stuff. A bad wire, a stray hum a some other problem. In the same way any album that purports to be live at one specific concert are usually recorded over several nights in different locations. Ace said KISS Alive was recorded at several locations including Wildwood, NJ. Sometimes vocals are slightly off mic or guitars go noticably out of tune. You need to go in and fix those kind of things.
#7
That being said, most live albums are more genuine than the Kiss one (I think it's the same live album I've heard about before, by the sounds of it). Most live albums get a bit of a re-mix, as a live mix rarely meets what sounds good in a living room, due to acoustics and dealing with issues that are less than ideal on the night.

Couldn't have copy/pasted verses btw, I don't think many (if any) bands had even dreamed of playing to a click back then.
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#8
Usually the drums are the hardest part to change during a live album, especially if they are also releasing a video with it. Syncing to sound becomes a bit of a pain but can also be done with the right budget as there are different shots, audience shots and such that can take the perspective away from the sync being out of a performance. For example I remember on S&M (Metallica's live symphony album+video), there was a part I think on "4 Leaf Glover" or whatever that song was called where you can see that Kirk is wailing away on a lead and it is not heard in the mix as apparently that footage was taken from another night of the performance or another shot.

As far as audio corrections on a live album, for the most part anything but the drums can be replaced unless they were also midi synced so a click track could be generated for the whole performance. In modern technology they can at least retrigger all the close mics and leave the overheads only sounding the way they were originally captured. As far as the instruments or vocals, they can all be redone with the original being only a reference track. There is a lot of trickery and very rarely what you hear is what really happened that night at the gig.

I give Slayer a lot of kudos for being one of the few that released a live record with all the warts and pimples, "Decade of Aggression". They picked several performances but I don't really think they did any edits besides mixing it. You can hear all teh vocal, drum and guitar screwups on the whole tape (yeah, I have the tape).
#9
Quote by diabolical
I give Slayer a lot of kudos for being one of the few that released a live record with all the warts and pimples, "Decade of Aggression". They picked several performances but I don't really think they did any edits besides mixing it. You can hear all teh vocal, drum and guitar screwups on the whole tape (yeah, I have the tape).

***outisde of the jamband scene. You should hear some of the wacky trainwrecks and vocal harmony travesties on the Phish/Umphrey's/moe./etc tapes I have! Naturally, most of those are offset by some killer improv and mind blowing shreddage.
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#10
But, say Ace made a mistake in a guitar solo. How will they go around to get the exact same sound as in the concert hall, and make the correction as least notable as possible? It seems like something that takes some really professional engineers and a great amount of time.
#11
Quote by liampje
But, say Ace made a mistake in a guitar solo. How will they go around to get the exact same sound as in the concert hall, and make the correction as least notable as possible? It seems like something that takes some really professional engineers and a great amount of time.


Depends on the mistake. If it is say Eb instead of E with no slippage or vibrato, quite easy - just load it in Melodyne or similar and boom quick note correction, done under 5 minutes. Depends on how much bleed, etc. but most likely the instruments were close tracked and possible also had a safety DI signal fed to another track, so if somewhat deeper edit was necessary, they just loaded the DI safety track, muted the other mic track that was recorded from his head, did the edits/pitch correction. They could have had Ace retrack it at this point or one of the Kiss clones (whoever is their guitarist du jour) redo the solo, then reamped it with a period authentic amp and done. Probably about 1hr worth of work.
If there were some artifacts from the pitch correction if they performed that kind of edit, most likely it got smeared with the rest of the mix, or quite possibly they hid it with more verb/chorus or something else.
Last edited by diabolical at Aug 4, 2014,
#12
Quote by diabolical
Depends on the mistake. If it is say Eb instead of E with no slippage or vibrato, quite easy - just load it in Melodyne or similar and boom quick note correction, done under 5 minutes. Depends on how much bleed, etc. but most likely the instruments were close tracked and possible also had a safety DI signal fed to another track, so if somewhat deeper edit was necessary, they just loaded the DI safety track, muted the other mic track that was recorded from his head, did the edits/pitch correction. They could have had Ace retrack it at this point or one of the Kiss clones (whoever is their guitarist du jour) redo the solo, then reamped it with a period authentic amp and done. Probably about 1hr worth of work.
If there were some artifacts from the pitch correction if they performed that kind of edit, most likely it got smeared with the rest of the mix, or quite possibly they hid it with more verb/chorus or something else.

We're talking about a Kiss record from before Melodyne even existed, aren't we? It wouldn't have been pitch-corrected, any pitchshifting back then was way more noticeable.
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#13
I think it has now been redone, at least that was my impression. Gene's trying to shift some more units

Back in the day it was done with speeding up and slowing down tape, and you're right - it was a nightmare. Most likely slaved another 2 track, 24 track or 16 track machine, synced it while the second machine was faster, and copied the lead, or spliced the tape, speed up on new tape, applied splice back.

Maybe one of the early harmonizers was used, I think you could pitch shift up/down.
Last edited by diabolical at Aug 4, 2014,
#14
But was this also something they did in the studio? Or is correction of mistakes something only used on live albums? All these questions pop up in my mind so, I guess I can ask this one as well. Do you record the chorus only once and then copy it? Or do you play the complete song in a row?
#15
KISS ALIVE was recorded at 4 different shows May 16, 1975, June 21, 1975, July 20, 1975 and July 23, 1975. It was recorded and produced by Eddie Kramer (Jimi Hendrix's engineer and head engineer at Electric ladyland Studios). There was no auto-tune or anything fancy digital remedies and as I remember from an older Eddie Kramer interview it was done on a 16 track ree-to-reel that had to be transported and set up at each concert. Each instrument was recorded on it's own track so if something had to be done you just punched in on that track and redid that instument. I would imagine that if a lead had to be re-cut, Ace probably did the entire lead and Eddie would add reverb, delay or whatever was needed in the right amount to match the live acoustics of the original track.
In Peter's book (and in a recent "That Metal Show" interview), Peter says the only thing truly live was the drum tracks. Eddie Kramer said there were studio fixes but as he recalls it was not a lot. Personally I think it was a lot but then I also remember that the whole point of KISS doing a live album was to produce a low cost album and avoid studio costs. Casablanca Records was broke and they limited KISS to a very small budget for their fourth since their first three albums had not sold well (a few hundred thousand in total). Everyone in the band agrees that the live album was done to save weeks of studio time and expense as well as being able to avoid writing any new material. In less than two years they had written and recorded three albums and were constantly on tour. A live album solved a lot of problems.
Last edited by Rickholly74 at Aug 5, 2014,
#16
OP- sounds like you need an intro to recording book.

Slaving tape recorders was a common technique back then so it might've been done that way. Eddie Kramer could also splice out a chunk of tape where he can then splice back piece of another tape with the right performance. For example, Lars' drums on"One" - kicks were so out of sync that they spliced the right perfoirmasnces from single kicks with the engineer marking the proper timing and assembling the part kick by kick.
Last edited by diabolical at Aug 5, 2014,
#18
Quote by liampje
But, say Ace made a mistake in a guitar solo. How will they go around to get the exact same sound as in the concert hall, and make the correction as least notable as possible? It seems like something that takes some really professional engineers and a great amount of time.


If it was recorded multitrack it's really pretty easy. Just go to a studio, A/B your guitar tone until you get it close and punch-in the new phrase. That is the beauty of multitrack recording. You can build layers of tracks and also fix goofs along the way. Les Paul was known to occasionally fat-finger a critical phrase in a recording that went to print and it made him crazy so he developed the 3T multitrack.

Fixing a 2T master is tougher but still possible.
"Your sound is in your hands as much as anything. It's the way you pick, and the way you hold the guitar, more than it is the amp or the guitar you use." -- Stevie Ray Vaughan

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#19
When you think about it there was little bleed at Ace's amp since it was recorded close miked, if they wrote down the settings it should easy, also it is expected for lead to sound different than rhythm sound so they didn't have to match so close.