#1
Okay so, do dual/quad tracked recordings HAVE to be recorded twice??
What I do is layer the guitar and record it simultaneously into two layers with one panned full right and one panned full left. Will this produce the same sound as actually recording a part twice or will this produce the same sound as copying and pasting a recorded clip and layering it over itself (which i've heard does not produce a true double tracked sound. It just seems ridiculous to have to record a part twice. Especially my solos, the fast alternate picking, the dynamics, the phrasing, there's no way I could recreate a solo twice, it just wouldnt match up.

If this is the case, and recording one layer hard right and one hard left at the same time is not true double tracking, and i dont want to record twice, is it better to continue what ive been doing or just record into one track centered to get the best quality. Thanks.
#2
Short answer: Yes you do.

Long Answer: If you just duplicate the takes it doesn't matter how much you pan them because how the line up it will ALWAYS sounds centred. Dual recording will be the same because the wave form will be the same. You CAN time delay one side to make it different but it doesn't sound as good. You don't have to double track solos though. Dual tracking is mainly for rhythm.

And it may seem "ridiculous" to you, but pretty much everyone does it. It just sounds like you're being massively lazy and no good music came out of laziness.
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Last edited by ChemicalFire at Aug 10, 2014,
#3
Quote by ChemicalFire
Short answer: Yes you do.

Long Answer: If you just duplicate the takes it doesn't matter how much you pan them because how the line up it will ALWAYS sounds centred. Dual recording will be the same because the wave form will be the same. You CAN time delay one side to make it different but it doesn't sound as good. You don't have to double track solos though. Dual tracking is mainly for rhythm.

And it may seem "ridiculous" to you, but pretty much everyone does it. It just sounds like you're being massively lazy and no good music came out of laziness.


It's not lazy. You try playing the solo to Tornado of souls and getting two wav forms to line up and not sound dicky. Not happening. It doesn't matter if you're a good musician. There's just too much feeling and soul that goes into it to recreate it twice with pin point accuracy
#4
Like I said. You don't dual track solos. That'd be dumb.
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#5
Bad excuses, dude. If you can't recreate a solo, then you're not playing it well enough to be recording it in the first place. Having too much feeling doesn't make a piece harder to recreate. Don't be lazy. Recording/mixing/mastering is too difficult and time consuming to be lazy.

But, yes, as others have said, dual tracking is mostly a rhythm thing (though I have gotten good results from trying it on leads occasionally).
#6
Yeah, I can definitely use it it on rhythm. But listen to something like john petrucci shredding, fast alternate picking, sweeps, etc. There's NO way any human could reproduce that note for note, their would be velocity variations, frequency differences.And if you layered those recordings on top of each other it would sound like an song with a wicked amount of over compression due to the amount of variable velocity. There isn't a player in the world who alternate picks 190 bpm with one consistent velocity. That's something only a piano roll could accomplish.

So now my question is , is it better to record one guitar centered or layer input or one recording to to layers, one panned hard right and one panned hard left (seems to sound better than one recording centered.)
#7
Quote by thekeyofshred
Okay so, do dual/quad tracked recordings HAVE to be recorded twice??
Dual tracking means recording twice, quad tracking means recording four times.
If you don't wanna dual track stuff find two different sounds and pan one left and one right to give the track more weight.
Quote by thekeyofshred
There's just too much feeling and soul that goes into it to recreate it twice with pin point accuracy
Quote by thekeyofshred
Yeah, I can definitely use it it on rhythm. But listen to something like john petrucci shredding, fast alternate picking, sweeps, etc. There's NO way any human could reproduce that note for note, their would be velocity variations, frequency differences.And if you layered those recordings on top of each other it would sound like an song with a wicked amount of over compression due to the amount of variable velocity. There isn't a player in the world who alternate picks 190 bpm with one consistent velocity. That's something only a piano roll could accomplish.
They invented sheet music for people to be able to do this.
It can be done, you just need to be good enough.
Quote by thekeyofshred
So now my question is , is it better to record one guitar centered or layer input or one recording to to layers, one panned hard right and one panned hard left (seems to sound better than one recording centered.)
Better doesn't exist.
Double tracking stuff and panning it left and right generally makes it sound fuller.
Quote by ChemicalFire
Like I said. You don't dual track solos. That'd be dumb.
You might as well double track a solo if ya ask me.

Some examples of how stuff come out when using different methods.
Double tracking, using different sounds on the left and right channels - http://profile.ultimate-guitar.com/Spambot_2/music/play1271345
Single tracking everything and pulling it off with arrangement - http://profile.ultimate-guitar.com/Spambot_2/music/play1243551
Single tracking everything and using a sample delay on acoustic guitar and different sounds on the left and right channels of the electric guitar - http://kiwi6.com/file/23g1elx6rq
Name's Luca.

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Last edited by Spambot_2 at Aug 10, 2014,
#8
For the record those variations you're complaining about is what makes dual tracking work.
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#9
http://www.soundclick.com/player/single_player.cfm?songid=12774726&q=hi&newref=1

^ this is my music. Hard rock, fast shred metal. There's no way I could play the leads I play and have them sync up.

I'll try it for timed rhythms, but I guess dual tracking is out of the question for most of my soloing work.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BS1g-gBiRZ8

I play stuff like this. It's very hard to play that kind of thing twice and get it the EXACT same

I was sad to learned dual tracking worked in this way. I guess I'm silly for thinking recording inputs to to layers panned differently was any different than recording one thing and duplicating it. I guess I will have to get the tone i want from a proper EQ

What exactly does recording something twice accomplish, more thickness/ full ness?

Why is recording twice and panning different from duplicating and panning. Isn't it the same thing? Or is because when you record solely left and solely right, you have a higher signal concentration to both sides and a more full, stereo sound?
#10
It works because what you're recording isn't exactly the same.
Like an ensemble vs a single solo instrument.

I think ola englund shows some single tracked vs double tracked stuff in his test vids, you might wanna check them out for reference.
Name's Luca.

Quote by OliOsbourne
I don't know anything about this topic, but I just clicked on this thread because of your username :O
Quote by Cajundaddy
Clue: amplifiers amplify so don't turn it on if you need quiet.
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#11
Quote by Spambot_2
It works because what you're recording isn't exactly the same.
Like an ensemble vs a single solo instrument.

I think ola englund shows some single tracked vs double tracked stuff in his test vids, you might wanna check them out for reference.


Ah, that explains why the premise of recording everything the exact same is false. It might be neat to hear something slightly different in left vs right.
I googled it and couldnt find it, do you have a link to his comparison videos?
#12
In regards to double tracking leads, I remember reading that Randy Rhoades would double and even triple track his solos. I would have to say that he did a fairly good job of playing lightning fast licks with soul and character. Also, I wouldn't be surprised if John Petrucci has also double tracked his leads in the past.

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#13
No two performances of anything ever on any instrument will ever come out identical. Understand that. The idea is not to perform twice and make an absurdly precise clone. You'll pick a few decibels harder. Or you'll pick a note a millisecond later. It doesn't matter. You're only expected to perform them well enough that the human brain can't detect mistakes so severe that it thinks the two tracks weren't trying to play the same piece of music. There is nothing in that video, or in anybody's music at all (okay, maybe noise based genres) that can't be recreated precisely enough to have the desired effect. Again, if you can't recreate the solo well enough to double track it (though double tracking is typically not done for leads anyway) then you're not playing it well at all. No matter how expressive a lead may be, it's still a mechanical thing, built on specific rhythmic intervals, and slides and hammers/pulls occurring on specific notes, and bends reaching a specific note at a specific time, and so forth. All of the techniques involved and overall difficulty in the world will not make it non re-creatable.
#14
^This

If you can play it once you can play it twice.
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#15
I have done the time shifting thing (clone a track and delay it or advance it by a few milliseconds) but the forum members here are correct. It comes off more as an effect than actually adding to the fullness of the instrument or voice. I actually found that in most cases it makes the instrument sound weaker (this may be due to some natural masking or comb filtering while the two tracks fight each other).True double tracking needs to be done in real time, that is played twice. No way around it that I know of. No short delays, panning or EQ will do it. You just have to play it twice. Macabe_Turtle breaks it down well. Your brain needs to hear two completely different sets of sound waves and frequency changes which are caused by the two tracks having dynamics and timeing variations.
This is not a dumb question though. I learned by spending hours trying those "tricks" to simulate double tracking. They just don't give the effect of two instruments or the fullness. Maybe someone has an idea I haven't tried but in my opinion you can save youreslf a lot of time and just do another track.
I also can't see doing a lead twice unless it's to add a harmony note or something. If the lead doesn't stand on it's own maybe it's back to the drawing board. If the lead has a lot of emotion and dynamics why try to mess it up with by doubling it? If the tone or fullness is not there, change your settings and do it again. The best recordings are the ones that come out sounding almost exactly as you want them to without a lot of changes needed in EQ and effects. If it's right from the start you'll know it. Buddy Holly said he knew a sound was right when he heard a playback and got the "all overs" meaning it was just what he wanted without any fixing.
Last edited by Rickholly74 at Aug 11, 2014,
#16
The Haas effect will solve your problem. Duplicate the solo, pan one hard left and other hard right, and then delay one of them. Play with delay to find what you like. Not much delay, between 1ms and 30ms kind of thing.

I would likely never try and duplicate a solo because my solos are always improvised. Playing something improvised and then memorizing it, and doing it again the same way are different things. But, I would also likely never want to duplicate a solo like that. Maybe a subtle effect like that, with 3 channels 2 delayed at different delays and one down the middle, but I'm not a fan of the stereo solo like that.
Last edited by fingrpikingood at Aug 11, 2014,
#17
I will try true double tracking for rhythym and the haas effect for solos. I still wonder if recording to center vs one left and one right is better. One L/R seems to sound better, even if it's recorded simultaneously. things in the center by themselves just sound like poop for some reason
#18
This may sound a little obvious but....If you are using an amplifier to power your monitor speakers have you checked that your speakers are connected correctly. Make sure they are "in phase" so that + plus and - minus goes to the correct terminals. If the speakers are connected wrong (out of phase) you tend to loose your center image and it's usually quite noticeable. Just a thought.
Last edited by Rickholly74 at Aug 11, 2014,
#19
Quote by thekeyofshred
I will try true double tracking for rhythym and the haas effect for solos. I still wonder if recording to center vs one left and one right is better. One L/R seems to sound better, even if it's recorded simultaneously. things in the center by themselves just sound like poop for some reason


For your rhythm, an easy trick is to take your second verse, and layer that on top of your first one, and vice versa and etcetera for chorus and whatever repeated parts you have. You can always go in and fix things a little bit with some time stretching in whatever DAW you're using as well.
#20
I tried recording simultaneously one full left and one full right. Both are eq'd the same. But on the right I put a 30 ms delay with a little feedback. Mixed in about 50%. I also put an expander VST @ 60%. My tone is freaking SWEET!!! I havent tried true dual tracking yet, but this is definitely a step all. Thank you all for your kind knowledge and helping to better my tone! And I just tried recording something twice... sounded way better than just the delay, and my timing was off and i didnt even notice!!! That's so cool. I'm gonna have some fun with this

Now im gonna try recording twice WITH the delay and see how that sounds
Last edited by thekeyofshred at Aug 11, 2014,
#21
Great. Being a little off on the doubled second guitar is actually a good thing sometimes. It's paints a better aural picture and your ears will pick up similar but different sounds.
#22
This can be summed up in two things.

1) Yes, double-tracking means recording something twice. Not copy and pasting something.

2) Don't assume other people can't double track solos, just because you can't. It isn't so regularly done, and a much more sensible way of thickening the sound would be to layer a few amps/mic positions, but I've double-tracked leads in the past and if you write a solo, chances are you've practised it enough to be able to play it perfectly when you come to record it. Professionals who perform the part night after night, near-flawlessly every time, are more than capable of getting two similar takes out of a few dozen.


No offence meant, but you know... just remember that if you can play something properly once, it's possible to play it twice And obviously the tiny differences in each track are what gives the effect.
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