#1
I'm thinking of buying a superstrat and what is important to me is that it was in the range of 1200-2000 USD (new only), had a neck that's thinner than a '59 Les Paul (which is uncomfortable for me), all tuners on the headstock were on one side (like Stratocaster, as opposed to Gibson layout of tuners). Of course, build quality is very important to me. Also, I prefer passive pickups, but active pickups can be replaced so... Bolt-on or Neck-Thru Floyd rose or Strings thru - all are acceptable to me. I'm only looking for info on acceptable options and then I'm going to go and try them, see how they feel. So far these are what I see as possible options:

* Jackson Soloist SL2 PRO ( http://www.jacksonguitars.com/guitars/soloist/models/sl2-pro-series-soloist-ebony-fingerboard-quicksilver/ )

* ESP MII ( http://www.espguitars.com/products/10032-e-ii-m-ii-fm-acsb?category_id=1963528-m-series-guitars )

* maybe some Charvel So-Cal, San Dimas or Super Stock.

* Ibanez RG Prestige 655 or 652FX ( http://www.ibanez.co.jp/products/u_eg_page14.php?year=2014&cat_id=1&series_id=1&data_id=151&color=CL01 )

1) I'm looking for suggestions of similar guitars.

2) I've heard Charvel is connected to Jackson guitars, so it's interesting to hear what are the differences between SL2 and the aforementioned Charvel models in terms of build quality and comfort.

3) Considering SL2 is made (like I was told) in Mexico and ESP M-II made in Japan, is there a difference in build quality?

4) SL2 uses Floyd Rose 1000 Series and ESP M-II uses Floyd Rose Original - which one of them is considered better and more durable (because Floyd Rose bridges tend to wear down, right?)?

5) Ibanez RGs are made out of basswood. I've done some reading in the past and I found some people say that Stratocasters made out of basswood tend to be fragile in the area where the bridge is mounted (due to the bridge being moved). Is that true and how does that affect the durability of Ibanez guitars? My brother actually has a basswood MIJ Stratocaster and I can see that the area around one of the bridge mounting screws is slightly ruined, as if the screw is getting ripped out.
Last edited by andriusd at Aug 26, 2014,
#2
Ibanez guitars are solid as a rock. No idea what Fender is doing.

The Jackson shouldn't be considered, IMO. It's not in the same league as the ESP or Ibanez. And yes, the Floyd Rose Original is better than the FR-1000.

Now down to the ESP and Ibanez - many people experienced in both will tell you that the Ibanez Edge is a superior trem to the OFR. I have an Edge in my RG520, and I must say that it is pretty fantastic. Holds tune like nobody's business, no matter how you yank it around. But at the end of the day, comparing these two particular trems, it's probably more a matter of feel preference than quality.

Other than that, you have to play them. You can guess blindly and not like what you choose very easily. The Ibanez has a wider nut width and a much flatter fretboard. Not to mention the far flatter neck. All those combine to give a more "modern" playing feel, whereas the ESP is specc'd much more classically, with a round good sized neck and a rounder fretboard.

The ESP doesn't have a tone knob.

They both have good pickups in them (rare for Ibanez), but you may not necessarily like them. Depending on your tastes, they may need a pickups swap. I don't think the 81/81 is a good combo at all. Unless you're into late 80s/90s thrash and nu metal. And the Tone Zone has been said by many to be too fat to the point of being muddy or undefined.
Spin 'round carousel when your horse isn't screwed in.

My band:
Fractured Instinct
(For fans of Death/Groove/Prog Metal)

Ibanez RGA42E
Ibanez S420
LTD H-301
Ibanez RG520
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Douglas Grendel 725
Line 6 Pod HD500X
#3
Thank you for an extensive explanation!

I accidentally found this page: http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/EMIISTDMBLK/
It's so weid this M-II costs so much (the original price before the discount) and has Seymour Duncan pickups. There's no such a guitar in the M-II series page on ESP site: http://www.espguitars.com/products?categories=m-series-guitars
How can that be, considering it's on its way to the store (that is it's not an old stock or anything)?
#4
The ESP logo is now (2014) reserved for USA and custom shop ESP's only...
While that model is a M-II, it is not an E-II series guitar. I'm pretty sure its pre-2014.

I ordered an E-II Horizon III with a a Floyd, and let me tell ya it was a fantastic instrument. Everything was top notch, the frets were outstanding, no buzz or anything. The guitar was perfectly setup, and the fit and finish were truly incredible.
It killed me to make the decision, but the moments I started playing it, I felt it wasn't the axe for me... Everything was perfect (minus the pups), but the guitar just didn't sit well in my hands, it still makes me sad that it didn't cause it was a sick axe.

So I got a USA Fender deluxe (HSH), and while it fits in my hands perfectly and I feel it is MY axe, the build quality and set-up are a little (note little) lower. The frets are not very polished and it needs a set-up. Otherwise it is my dream guitar because it just FEELS rigth in my hands. Even though i doesn't have a quilted/maple top, binding, a Floyd Rose, 24 frets, an ebony or maple fretboard, or a particularly nice finish (Olympic pearl). But for a guitar that sits with you well enough, I can certainly do without all the "necessities"

One more thing, try before you buy or prepare to return it!!!
#5
The ESP logo is now (2014) reserved for USA and custom shop ESP's only


Does that mean they use a different name for the rest of the world? Or just a different logo?
#6
Just a different logo. Now for the E-II ($1500-2500 guitars) series it just says E-II on the head stock followed by the model name. The traditional ESP logo is only on their highest end guitars, those made in the USA($3500+) and custom orders fulfilled at the custom shop in Japan ($5000k+)
#7
Get a Carvin. Made in USA, custom built to your specs, absolute top quality, and you can get some incredible options for that price range.
Death, Black, Doom, Grind, and more.
#8
if you ask me, out of those options, it's between the esp or the ibanez. as offworld said, they're in a different league.
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Quote by K33nbl4d3
I'll have to put the Classic T models on my to-try list. Shame the finish options there are Anachronism Gold, Nuclear Waste and Aged Clown, because in principle the plaintop is right up my alley.

Quote by K33nbl4d3
Presumably because the CCF (Combined Corksniffing Forces) of MLP and Gibson forums would rise up against them, plunging the land into war.

Quote by T00DEEPBLUE
Et tu, br00tz?
#9
Quote by Offworld92
Ibanez guitars are solid as a rock. No idea what Fender is doing.

The Jackson shouldn't be considered, IMO. It's not in the same league as the ESP or Ibanez. And yes, the Floyd Rose Original is better than the FR-1000.

Now down to the ESP and Ibanez - many people experienced in both will tell you that the Ibanez Edge is a superior trem to the OFR. I have an Edge in my RG520, and I must say that it is pretty fantastic. Holds tune like nobody's business, no matter how you yank it around. But at the end of the day, comparing these two particular trems, it's probably more a matter of feel preference than quality.

Other than that, you have to play them. You can guess blindly and not like what you choose very easily. The Ibanez has a wider nut width and a much flatter fretboard. Not to mention the far flatter neck. All those combine to give a more "modern" playing feel, whereas the ESP is specc'd much more classically, with a round good sized neck and a rounder fretboard.

The ESP doesn't have a tone knob.

They both have good pickups in them (rare for Ibanez), but you may not necessarily like them. Depending on your tastes, they may need a pickups swap. I don't think the 81/81 is a good combo at all. Unless you're into late 80s/90s thrash and nu metal. And the Tone Zone has been said by many to be too fat to the point of being muddy or undefined.


I was going to shit down your throat for the "different league" comment but I am not a fan of the SL2(I know you are an Ibanez fan boi). I don't really care for anything about it.

As a Jackson fanboy I wouldn't buy it. I have an older MIJ professional one that I love to death. SL2 is kind of in own little world.

The current overseas Jacksons - X series and pro play VERY well. I just picked up a new V from the pro line and it plays like butter. Plays nearly on the level of my USA KV-2.

the SL2 inlays and body mounted pickups are a turn off for me, if the SL-2 plays like their usual quality I wouldn't discount it. If you like the way it looks its worth looking into.


Do you have any stores near you to play these guitars? The necks are pretty different between them.

The ESP does not have a tone knob like Offworld said- but do you need one? I don't touch the tone knob on any of my guitars. I've removed them from half of them. No point. ESPs quality is high, even the low end ones play very well. The neck profile might not be for all.

As far as that RG you have listed- make sure you are okay with a middle single coil pick-up. Some players hit it with their pick when playing. I am not a fan of pick guards on super strats but its only cosmetic. It's pretty plain looking to me, I'm not a fan of dot inlays either.


I wouldn't buy any blindly. All are nice but the playability between them are pretty different. Try to find one that makes you not want to put it back on the stand.
Quote by DeathByDestroyr
See, it's important that people clarify when they say "metal", because I pretty much always assume they are a Cannibal Corpse fanboi.
Last edited by R45VT at Aug 22, 2014,
#10
Dismissing the Jackson as 'not being in a different league' is a bit harsh, imo. The Pro Series is full of kickass guitars. But to rather go for the Ibanez or the ESP over it is something I can't objectively argue against.

I'd honestly consider the lack of a tone knob a good thing on the ESP because I hate them.
Roses are red
Violets are blue
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#11
Well, I'm a Jackson guy, and my pro series MIJ guitars are great. If you can swing a USA soloist, that would be my suggestion.

Jackson RR3 Rhoads and DK2M Dinky
Peavey 6505+ w/ Avatar 212 cab
Ibanez TS9, ISP Decimator, MXR 10 Band EQ
-Digitech RP1000
#12
Does LTD KH-602 have the same neck as M-II? I could try it out at a local shop (which doesn't have ESPs) and if the neck's the same, I'd know if M-II's my thing.
#13
No, the KH has a neck that is more similar to the Ibanez. It is thinner than flatter than what the M-II has, but it's not as thin or flat as the Ibanez.

Funnily, being in that in between ground makes it much worse than either, IMO.


I've played the Jackson Pros. Their quality is very hit and miss, and I have seen awful binding/finishing jobs on them. For the quality control to even be in question is reason alone why they are not in the same league as Ibanez Prestige or ESP.
Spin 'round carousel when your horse isn't screwed in.

My band:
Fractured Instinct
(For fans of Death/Groove/Prog Metal)

Ibanez RGA42E
Ibanez S420
LTD H-301
Ibanez RG520
Peavey Predator USA
Douglas Grendel 725
Line 6 Pod HD500X
#14
for 2000, please do not rule out carvin with a pickup swap. a 1500 dolalr carvin will blow most of those out of the water.

also music man if you can get one under 2000. generally axis models are 1500-2000 or perhaps the used or older models are right around 2000. music mans straight up murder most guitars on the market in my opinion. incredible guitars. out of the box give them a notch up on garvin as a whole. if you put time and upgrades into carvin, i would take a carvin for customizability and built quality of the physical instrument. the pups, wiring, etc leave something to be desired. (so i got mine rewired).

out of those, i would personally go with the jackson or charvel.
Carvin CT624
Walden G630ce Acoustic
Carvin V3M, Avatar 2x12 WGS Reaper, vet 30
(crybaby, Fairfield circuitry Comp, GFS tuner, Vick Audio 73 Ram's Head, Xotic AC booster, lovepedal trem, TC Flashback, PGS Trinity Reverb, Walrus Audio Aetos power)
#15
Quote by Offworld92
No, the KH has a neck that is more similar to the Ibanez. It is thinner than flatter than what the M-II has, but it's not as thin or flat as the Ibanez.

Funnily, being in that in between ground makes it much worse than either, IMO.


I've played the Jackson Pros. Their quality is very hit and miss, and I have seen awful binding/finishing jobs on them. For the quality control to even be in question is reason alone why they are not in the same league as Ibanez Prestige or ESP.


Some of them have an oiled neck instead of painted on the neck throughs. This makes it look funny where they taped it(binding may look like slightly different in the taped area).

I haven't played one that was poor out of the shelf yet, but they are rare to find in GC's or shops. Even the lower end bolt on necks that aren't the JS series have had great action. Seems like the last few years things got much better aside from the JS. Those are just cheap beginner guitars.

I haven't played a poorly set-up ESP ltd either. Even down to the $400 range they had some great playability. Just depends if you like the neck profile.

Ibanez makes some decent stuff, jut not my cup of tea.
Quote by DeathByDestroyr
See, it's important that people clarify when they say "metal", because I pretty much always assume they are a Cannibal Corpse fanboi.
#16
Yeah, GC doesn't have shit. I got to play a bunch of stuff I've wanted to at the Sam Ash out in Dallas.
Spin 'round carousel when your horse isn't screwed in.

My band:
Fractured Instinct
(For fans of Death/Groove/Prog Metal)

Ibanez RGA42E
Ibanez S420
LTD H-301
Ibanez RG520
Peavey Predator USA
Douglas Grendel 725
Line 6 Pod HD500X
#17
At this point I am throwing in Fender Stratocaster American Standard/Deluxe in my mix of options, but thanks for other suggestions. It's a shame American-made Jacksons are over 2000, so unaffordable to me...

A couple more questions:
1) I can't check ESP out in local stores (they don't carry them), and I might be able to check some cheaper Ibanez, and I think I'll be able to check some Fenders out. So I won't know the feeling of ESP neck, but I might be able to compare them in my mind and draw some conclusions if I check Ibanez and Fender out and know some more details about ESP.
Stratocaster has a "Modern C shape" neck ( http://www.fender.com/en-LT/guitars/stratocaster/american-deluxe-strat-plus-hss-rosewood-fingerboard-mystic-black/ ) while ESP M-II has "Thin U". Maybe someone with experience could try to describe the difference between those two? Is the so-called "Thin U" thinner or fatter than Fender's "Modern C"? And what about Jackson's "Speed Neck"? What kind of shape is that?
Maybe someone could post E-II M-II's and SL2's neck thickness at the first and 12th fret? Ibanez has these specs on their site:
Thickness at 1st: 17mm
Thickness at 12th: 19mm


2) Ibanez RG 655 has a neck radius of 430mm ( http://www.ibanez.co.jp/products/u_eg_page14.php?year=2014&cat_id=1&series_id=1&data_id=151&color=CL01 ), which means it's FLATTER than 305mm ESP neck, right?


3) The problem is, it seems like E-II's are virtually not available in Europe. Most online guitar stores, when I choose ESP, give me a couple of really expensive ESPs and then the rest of the list is ESP LTD. I barely managed to find E-II M-II at one store, but it's overpriced (1500 GBP, which close to 1,5 times the US price). I could ask my brother to buy it in the USA and send it to me (to avoid paying import taxes - for a guitar that the taxes have already been paid for with the initial payment!), but he's not a guitar expert, so... I'm going to have to trust ESP quality standards and the guitar shop (that it checks their guitar before sending out). So maybe someone could recommend a online place to buy it? Is the official ESPguitars.com a reliable source? Do they check their guitars before sending out? Someone has posted a complaint on their forum that they have received a guitar with several minor faults TWICE from them and the customer service didn't care much for it (they offered to replace the guitar, though - but that's not an option for me as the price of postage and the risk of damage in transit is too great).

4) How's ESP quality nowadays, considering I am not talking about those $3,500 and up guitars (who can afford that anyway? ), but the cheapest E-II series that don't even bear ESP logo?

BTW, What's up with ESP prices? Japanese guitars used to be better build AND cheaper than US ones. Nowadays a "real" ESP (they've removed an ESP logo from E-II, and although it's a MIJ, that means it's not considered a serious product worth the brand logo by ESP) prices start with $3,500, while Fender American Stratocasters start with approximately $1,300, which people say are really good - and American made always adds to the price. I mean, aren't Japanese-made guitars supposed to be cheaper than US-made ones and rival their quality? And it's Fender we're talking about, and their quality seems to be great (according to people on the forums), as opposed to Gibson. And now a cheapest "true" Japanese made ESP is two times the price of a US-made Fender...
#18
Fenders are cheap because they are simple instruments. There is almost nothing to them. It's always been that way and that was the original point, to keep them cheap.

ESP guitars use more expensive materials and generally have more attention to detail and stricter QC. The price gap is pretty fitting for the extra that's there. $1300-1400 for a top production Fender, $1500-1900 for a production ESP (E-II).

E-II should be exactly the same as ESP production. The price points are the same. The only thing different is the logo. The ESP Original and ESP USA is basically the introduction of previously Japan only options to the global market. They are overpriced, yeah, but I think that's mostly in line keeping up with competition at similar price points and the mystique of being super high end. I wouldn't worry about them if you don't have that kind of money or interest in dropping for one.
Spin 'round carousel when your horse isn't screwed in.

My band:
Fractured Instinct
(For fans of Death/Groove/Prog Metal)

Ibanez RGA42E
Ibanez S420
LTD H-301
Ibanez RG520
Peavey Predator USA
Douglas Grendel 725
Line 6 Pod HD500X
#19
really though....i need to repost for carvin. check it out.
Carvin CT624
Walden G630ce Acoustic
Carvin V3M, Avatar 2x12 WGS Reaper, vet 30
(crybaby, Fairfield circuitry Comp, GFS tuner, Vick Audio 73 Ram's Head, Xotic AC booster, lovepedal trem, TC Flashback, PGS Trinity Reverb, Walrus Audio Aetos power)
#20
Quote by ikey_
really though....i need to repost for carvin. check it out.


+1, I played a DC127 yesterday, actually. Nice guitar, definitely quality. Didn't floor me or anything - hence the importance of trying to find something that clicks in your hands.
Spin 'round carousel when your horse isn't screwed in.

My band:
Fractured Instinct
(For fans of Death/Groove/Prog Metal)

Ibanez RGA42E
Ibanez S420
LTD H-301
Ibanez RG520
Peavey Predator USA
Douglas Grendel 725
Line 6 Pod HD500X
#21
I just picked up a MIM strat and I love it. I was going for a non-metal guitar this time around.

I played a ton from built in Mexico to USA and they all were pretty close. USa has better hardware but it's not by much. I didn't notice any difference in the fret work or necks. All of the ones I played were the C shape. Coming from owning a bunch of Jackson's I find the C shape very nice.


OP- what is your current guitar? Anything you like or don't like about the way it plays?
Quote by DeathByDestroyr
See, it's important that people clarify when they say "metal", because I pretty much always assume they are a Cannibal Corpse fanboi.
#22
I decided not to include Carvin on my list.
Jackson SL2 Pro would be a very strong contender if it wasn't for this mystery about its quality. It's MSRP is less than half than that of ESP E-II M-II. It makes me assume Pro series Jackson must be using lower quality wood or something. It has nicer pickups in my opinion and I think compound radius fretboard is a bonus, but as not an expert, I look at the price and think it just can't be right. I don't know...
Last edited by andriusd at Aug 24, 2014,
#23
A huge impact on the price is country of origin. Indonesian and Chinese labor is far cheaper than Japanese and American labor. Keep in mind that is a large portion of markup. Generally for that you're supposed to get an increase in QC with first world labor, but those walls are breaking down fast. Ibanez's Indonesian factories for example are pretty amazing as far as Indonesian built guitars go. LTD's Indonesian guitars on the other hand are more typical and spotty. As are Jackson's.

Again I have nothing at all against Jackson, but I just call it as I see it.
Spin 'round carousel when your horse isn't screwed in.

My band:
Fractured Instinct
(For fans of Death/Groove/Prog Metal)

Ibanez RGA42E
Ibanez S420
LTD H-301
Ibanez RG520
Peavey Predator USA
Douglas Grendel 725
Line 6 Pod HD500X
#24
^ Yeah same here. I mean I have a (japanese) Jackson and don't have any ESPs (well I have an edwards I suppose). And the old MIJ Jacksons were great (apart from the trems on the cheaper ones).

I haven't tried the newer cheaper pro series Jacksons, though.
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Quote by K33nbl4d3
I'll have to put the Classic T models on my to-try list. Shame the finish options there are Anachronism Gold, Nuclear Waste and Aged Clown, because in principle the plaintop is right up my alley.

Quote by K33nbl4d3
Presumably because the CCF (Combined Corksniffing Forces) of MLP and Gibson forums would rise up against them, plunging the land into war.

Quote by T00DEEPBLUE
Et tu, br00tz?
#25
I should note that I'm 99% sure that the ESP M-II maple isn't coming back in stock at sweetwater, they've had that up for at least six months now and ESP is now making E-II which have replaced the standard line. I've owned the ESP M-II maple very very well built and amazing guitar, I can definitely recommend it however it does use a block heel with a 720 mod so access to the 24th fret isn't it's strong point but it's not that big of a deal.

I myself refuse to buy anything from indonesian factories after an Ibanez ICT700 came with a dented fret(the wood not marker) and lately the quality on the RG I ordered was just really poor all around. I've recently just ordered a schecter (made in korea) to replace the RG I got, I don't know how well they're built yet or how they play as I've never played a schecter before, but they definitely have a lot going on as far as the hardware goes and appearance. Just something to consider.
#26
Quote by Offworld92
A huge impact on the price is country of origin. Indonesian and Chinese labor is far cheaper than Japanese and American labor. Keep in mind that is a large portion of markup. Generally for that you're supposed to get an increase in QC with first world labor, but those walls are breaking down fast.


I understand that, and I know that Japanese guitars are on par with US guitars (if not better), but I thought Japanese guitars are cheaper than US ones in general and are more in the category of Mexican guitars price-wise. Or is it a thing of the past now?

Quote by Offworld92
LTD's Indonesian guitars on the other hand are more typical and spotty. As are Jackson's.


You mean that Mexican Jacksons are more typical and spotty, right?
But is it just build quality or also woods used, in this case?
#27
depends, really. the yen has been pretty strong for a while now so that hasn't helped japanese prices (though it's not quite as strong as it was). it also depends on where you are in the world- in europe (most, not all) MIJ prices are probably still a fair bit cheaper than equivalent USA prices, but in the USA I'm guessing (could be wrong) there won't be as much in it.
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Quote by K33nbl4d3
I'll have to put the Classic T models on my to-try list. Shame the finish options there are Anachronism Gold, Nuclear Waste and Aged Clown, because in principle the plaintop is right up my alley.

Quote by K33nbl4d3
Presumably because the CCF (Combined Corksniffing Forces) of MLP and Gibson forums would rise up against them, plunging the land into war.

Quote by T00DEEPBLUE
Et tu, br00tz?
#28
One thing about cheap labor- you can afford more final QC time and/or adjustments.

I'm not saying all factories do that. Chinese ones are still shit, IMO.

The last Ibanez I bought had the bridge a complete inch out of place. Intonation was horrible past the 4th fret. I really screwed up only strumming a few chords.

No Jacksons are built in Mexico. India, indonesia if I remember correctly, plus the USA ones.
Quote by DeathByDestroyr
See, it's important that people clarify when they say "metal", because I pretty much always assume they are a Cannibal Corpse fanboi.
#29
Japan being on par with Mexico hasn't been a thing since like the 80s/early 90s.

Late 90s on up, Japan has been pretty much on par with or superior to America. From what I have personally seen and played, Japan (ESP & Ibanez) pretty much consistently have better QC and attention to detail than American (Fender & Gibson) guitars. Japanese guitars are certainly far more consistent, and not at all the variable "you have to play the one you're going to get" game that Gibson and (to a lesser extent) Fender play.

I'm not experienced with MIA or MIJ Jackson really. Just never really seen them around where I am.
Spin 'round carousel when your horse isn't screwed in.

My band:
Fractured Instinct
(For fans of Death/Groove/Prog Metal)

Ibanez RGA42E
Ibanez S420
LTD H-301
Ibanez RG520
Peavey Predator USA
Douglas Grendel 725
Line 6 Pod HD500X
#30
^ I'd say more like late 70s onwards for Japan, at least in my limited experience with it. And at least in some instances.

There's that quote from Fender in 1982 where they said [paraphrased]: "We couldn't believe it. We'd been trying for ages to make accurate reissues, and in Japan they'd managed to do it."

Quote by R45VT
(a) One thing about cheap labor- you can afford more final QC time and/or adjustments.

(b) I'm not saying all factories do that.

(c) No Jacksons are built in Mexico. India, indonesia if I remember correctly, plus the USA ones.


(a) True, but sometimes they just pocket the difference and cash in.

(b) yeah exactly

(c) The bolt-on pro series is MIM, far as I'm aware. (Ditto the Charvel Pro Mods.)
I'm an idiot and I accidentally clicked the "Remove all subscriptions" button. If it seems like I'm ignoring you, I'm not, I'm just no longer subscribed to the thread. If you quote me or do the @user thing at me, hopefully it'll notify me through my notifications and I'll get back to you.
Quote by K33nbl4d3
I'll have to put the Classic T models on my to-try list. Shame the finish options there are Anachronism Gold, Nuclear Waste and Aged Clown, because in principle the plaintop is right up my alley.

Quote by K33nbl4d3
Presumably because the CCF (Combined Corksniffing Forces) of MLP and Gibson forums would rise up against them, plunging the land into war.

Quote by T00DEEPBLUE
Et tu, br00tz?