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#1
Do you feel that formal music training in schools and from teachers has a negative effect on the student's ability to express themselves freely as a musician and have a unique mind as a musician?

By the way, I never really liked the word, training.
#2
absolutely not I cant see how any formal training could hurt anyone, but i have met people with formal training and sometimes it seems like it takes them a bit longer to fully express themselves in music because ,despite being good song writers, they are still just putting notes together, but once writing becomes second nature to them they have no boundaries at all
#3
I have talked to classically-trained individuals who complain of being "slaves to the sheet music"; who can only play directly from the notation.
To whom the idea of sitting down and whanging out a 3-chord folks song is just rather alien...

But it certainly doesn't have to be that way. We know a couple of local folks who play in the city's symphony orchestra, yet who do a variety of other gigs as well... Jazz, French-language stuff, whatever.
#8
Kinda. I went through some classes in music theory and afterwards came out feeling kind of lost and estranged from the way I used to do things. It took some time but I found my groove again, I think it just took a long time after the fact to internalize what was useful and filter out what wasn't.
#9
Absolutely not if you can handle it and don't become, as was said before, "a slave to sheet music". Knowing a little theory helps a lot in communicating ideas with other musicians (if they know some theory as well), helps you get a better picture of what you are actually doing and helps you become a much more versatile musician. Apart from theory, having a qualified teacher helps you avoid some technical atrocities I've seen on some self-taught players. Like holding the pick totally wrong or painfully twisting your fingers on the fretboard.

What I think actually is that tabs are the thing that's killing music. It makes your ears lazy and makes you stick to stock licks and shit.
Last edited by Zordon at Sep 7, 2014,
#10
Quote by Zordon
What I think actually is that tabs are the thing that's killing music. It makes your ears lazy and makes you stick to stock licks and shit.

Funny thing tabs have been around since the lute was around. So if tabs were killing music, they've been killing music for a while.
#11
i learned how to play clarinet and sax through school. taught myself rock band instruments. i learned a lot from my music teachers that i was able to apply to guitar. it took over 10 years for me to start appreciating what i learned in the concert band setting and apply it to the rock stage. 10 years ago i thought it was a waste of time.
#12
Quote by Bikewer
I have talked to classically-trained individuals who complain of being "slaves to the sheet music"; who can only play directly from the notation.
To whom the idea of sitting down and whanging out a 3-chord folks song is just rather alien...

But it certainly doesn't have to be that way. We know a couple of local folks who play in the city's symphony orchestra, yet who do a variety of other gigs as well... Jazz, French-language stuff, whatever.


Right. If you never jam, you shouldn't expect to be able to jam. It's not about too much training, it's a question of not training for the relevant stuff. Those guys invariably have a huge amount of technical skill and if they made a point of practicing jamming they'd get there very quickly.

Last night I went and saw two friends of mine perform. The accompanist is a flamenco guitarist, and freakin' amazing when he's doing flamenco (he's a working musician). I can't even conceive of the sort of stuff he does - like, my brain can't fathom how some of it is possible.

But last night he was supporting a country-influenced singer-songwriter, and honestly, there were times when he was not great. Not terrible or anything, but he didn't have that country swing. You could tell it wasn't his native language.

Because that's not the kind of stuff he plays! He's a legitimately great musician, but his greatness is in this one box, and outside that box, he's still learning. (Not saying he was terrible, just ... again, there was something a little bit off in parts of his playing).
#13
Any musican who is against the theory or who thinks "knowing musical notation will enslave me" (if someone is trying to sell this bullshit, do him a favor and smack him in the face) is like writer who is against grammar and who thinks that reading and analysing books is lame.

So yeah, formal musical education will never hurt you.
#14
Depends on the student, I imagine.
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Quote by K33nbl4d3
I'll have to put the Classic T models on my to-try list. Shame the finish options there are Anachronism Gold, Nuclear Waste and Aged Clown, because in principle the plaintop is right up my alley.

Quote by K33nbl4d3
Presumably because the CCF (Combined Corksniffing Forces) of MLP and Gibson forums would rise up against them, plunging the land into war.

Quote by T00DEEPBLUE
Et tu, br00tz?
#16
Quote by GameSkate
Any musican who is against the theory or who thinks "knowing musical notation will enslave me" (if someone is trying to sell this bullshit, do him a favor and smack him in the face) is like writer who is against grammar and who thinks that reading and analysing books is lame.

I really hate this analogy.

Quote by Dave_Mc
Depends on the student, I imagine.

Depends far more on the teacher.
#17
Quote by mjones1992
-/rant-


c:

It depends on the teacher and the student. Learning music formally shouldn't constrict a student's creativity, it should open the floodgates for creativity.

I keep wanting to write more and more but I'm afraid I'll say something dangerous.

In my view, the kind of creativity you put into music depends on the musical situation/presuppositions you are in. Free Jazz (technical term? i dunno, Complex Jazz?) and music alike allows you to break free of key and tonal sound and endlessly let rip with technique and complex expression. But you might not know how to do that without the education. Likewise, simpler musical situations/presuppositions like alternative or pop allow you to be endlessly creative within a key and tonal sound. But you might not know how to do that without the education.
Last edited by Will Lane at Sep 7, 2014,
#18
No, formal training does not have a negative effect on anyone's ability to express themselves or develop a unique mind as a musician. Often, students will put that on themselves, thinking that a professor is trying to stifle their creativity, but professors are trying to teach how music works. The more you know, the more tools you have at your disposal to create your own music. It's that simple - rules are tools. If you are going to be creative and unique, then a formal music education not only won't stop you, it can't stop you. It didn't stop Debussy! Really, the only limitations on you are the ones you place on yourself.

I remember being in my 2nd semester of theory, sitting in class while the professor was teaching about voice leading and resolutions of the V7 chord, and a student kept interrupting, challenging the professor, saying "Why do we have know this." I was thinking, if you're asking that question, then you shouldn't be here.
#19
Quote by Harmosis
I remember being in my 2nd semester of theory, sitting in class while the professor was teaching about voice leading and resolutions of the V7 chord, and a student kept interrupting, challenging the professor, saying "Why do we have know this." I was thinking, if you're asking that question, then you shouldn't be here.


Exactly. Someone without that knowledge might want to use that, but they might not know how. Having that knowledge before hand opens up what you can do with the V7. Yes, they can find out how to on their own. But then they just educated themselves...
#20
Absolutely not. Creativity is important, but I'd rather see art that is pretty creative, but was painted by an artist with a PH.D in a visual art field than art from someone that found a new way to draw stick figures. I am not saying it requires education to sound professional, but being educated doesn't necessarily make you less creative. It depends on the person I guess. My guitar teacher has helped me become MORE creative if anything, while helping me be more musically educated, technically skilled, and gave me a better ear for pitch, tone, and note differences.
#21
Quote by jazz_rock_feel

Depends far more on the teacher.


LOL that too.
I'm an idiot and I accidentally clicked the "Remove all subscriptions" button. If it seems like I'm ignoring you, I'm not, I'm just no longer subscribed to the thread. If you quote me or do the @user thing at me, hopefully it'll notify me through my notifications and I'll get back to you.
Quote by K33nbl4d3
I'll have to put the Classic T models on my to-try list. Shame the finish options there are Anachronism Gold, Nuclear Waste and Aged Clown, because in principle the plaintop is right up my alley.

Quote by K33nbl4d3
Presumably because the CCF (Combined Corksniffing Forces) of MLP and Gibson forums would rise up against them, plunging the land into war.

Quote by T00DEEPBLUE
Et tu, br00tz?
#22
Quote by jazz_rock_feel
I really hate this analogy.


i hate the way it's completely wrong, yeah.
i don't know why i feel so dry
#23
Quote by GameSkate
Any musican who is against the theory or who thinks "knowing musical notation will enslave me" (if someone is trying to sell this bullshit, do him a favor and smack him in the face) is like writer who is against grammar and who thinks that reading and analysing books is lame.

So yeah, formal musical education will never hurt you.

No. Here's what it's like.

It's like someone who has a degree in art history saying they're an artist, because they know what paintbrushes Van Gogh used.


So yeah, musical theory, outside of purely analytical purposes, is pretty much bollocks.
will someone carry me across ten thousand miles under the silence
#26
Studying music theory is something every musician should do to some degree. I haven't had any guitar lessons or gone to music school but I made an effort of trying to understand how the thing works through reading some of the chord books and learning about scales. Formal music training is much faster and efficient than self teaching and to deliberately refuse training is kinda silly. I guess the main problem for people is that some get that "school subject" feel for music.

Everyone should try to study music in any way that's comfortable for them. I tried reading music and it was too painful and boring for me, but never would I say that I'm better in any way than someone who can read it. One should respect other people's ways of learning how to play an instrument.

To summarize, the effects of formal music training are good for those who like it and bad for those who don't.
#27
Quote by jazz_rock_feel
Right?


correct. if every author were properly subjected to homogenized, pasteurized, university book learning, i would encourage my kids to never learn how to read so as not to subject them to such misery.
i don't know why i feel so dry
#28
my car has a problem. should i look at it myself with my neighbors who have changed their car's oil once or twice, or should i take it to a mechanic who actually knows what the hell he's doing?

the mechanic has formal training, so his creativity is probably blocked. i bet he couldn't even make a car fly, what a loser, lets down a 6 pack and put a potato in the tailpipe
#29
Quote by Hail
my car has a problem. should i look at it myself with my neighbors who have changed their car's oil once or twice, or should i take it to a mechanic who actually knows what the hell he's doing?

the mechanic has formal training, so his creativity is probably blocked. i bet he couldn't even make a car fly, what a loser, lets down a 6 pack and put a potato in the tailpipe


if you just want your car fixed, why are you worried about creativity?

also, most competent mechanics did not get that way from any sort of training.
i don't know why i feel so dry
#30
Quote by Hail
my car has a problem. should i look at it myself with my neighbors who have changed their car's oil once or twice, or should i take it to a mechanic who actually knows what the hell he's doing?

the mechanic has formal training, so his creativity is probably blocked. i bet he couldn't even make a car fly, what a loser, lets down a 6 pack and put a potato in the tailpipe

I'll need to actually understand what you're equating 'the car' to, in order for me to understand the analogy.
And you can't say music, because music can't have a problem in the same way a car can. Or in any way really.
will someone carry me across ten thousand miles under the silence
#31
No, it doesn't. It seems that a lot of guitarists are concerned that learning theory will hinder their ability to express themselves. To me it's a little bizarre, as the vast majority of these guitarists play things that are quite simple from a theoretical point of view.

I know people will argue with this, but the most creative music usually comes from those with a strong grounding in theory. Mozart, Beethoven, Wagner, Schoenberg, Webern, Penderecki, Miles Davis, those are some of the most creative minds in music. Of course learning music theory isn't a necessity, but learning the language of musicians before you either aurally or through formal analysis is a huge help.
#33
Quote by Hail
>le meme face

stunning counter-point. you're argument has completely swayed me.
will someone carry me across ten thousand miles under the silence
#35
well you having fun at least confirms my doubts that your analogy was actually a joke all along.

Well played. And good joke with that analogy, that's like top satire that is.
will someone carry me across ten thousand miles under the silence
#37
well he wasn't funny so i assumed he was serious
i don't know why i feel so dry
#38
oh crap was he joking

mate you have to make your satire a teeny bit more obvious. using this face either in the title of your thread, or at the end using the tags are the best way.
will someone carry me across ten thousand miles under the silence
Last edited by Baby Joel at Sep 7, 2014,
#39
Music theory presents you with options. You can use those options creatively or not, it's up to you. It exposes you to sounds and tells you why those sounds have traditionally been used.

I look at music theory as the various ways consonance/dissonance/tension/release have been thought about and organized throughout history. This naturally helps when you're writing, improvising and listening to music.
#40
Quote by Unreal T
Do you feel that formal music training in schools and from teachers has a negative effect on the student's ability to express themselves freely as a musician and have a unique mind as a musician?

By the way, I never really liked the word, training.

Do formal art classes have a negative effect on a student's ability to express themselves freely as a painter?
Do formal dance lessons have a negative effect on a student's ability to express themselves with a unique mind as a dancer?
Do formal writing classes in schools and from teachers have a negative effect on a writer's creativity and ability to express themselves?

If you answer these questions I think you'll see a common theme...
Si
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