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#1
There's a lot of people who aren't happy with the way things roll here in MT, and MT is getting a bit of a bad reputation within UG.

A lot of people have been trying to change the general tone of MT threads and posts, but some people feel like there's some backlash against it by other forum regulars. Of course these people haven't always gone about it in the best of ways, but that's another story.

Anyway, I feel like it would be appropriate to discuss what we think could be improved in this subforum.

So yeah let's do that.
#2
The problem is that MT is full of opinionated musicians!

In all seriousness,

First off, Music has no rules; there is no "right" way. However:

There is a general/agreed upon analysis/answer to many of the questions posted here as far as the pros/musical academics are concerned. However, there is so much misinformation out there (ESPECIALLY for guitarists, cough cough the "M word") that sometimes flies in the face of the more correct explanations.

Many if not most of us are hobbyists/semi-pros, and it is PERFECTLY UNDERSTANDABLE for a musician to be unaware of the perspective, explanations of the academics, and vice versa. This is what we forget.

The very real problem is most of this info is actual helpful in a contemporary context, mostly due to the immediacy of the "results" and popularity of the instrument/desire to play well. No one likes being told that they learned something wrong, and these people get offended/opinionated and do not open their mind to new ideas.

This works in reverse too.

There is a crowd of us (myself and others) who are not hobbyists. We spend hours training; some of us have music degrees or are close to them, while some of us are just learning but take it very seriously and put the time in. As a result, we don't like it when we try to offer assistance (sometimes crassly) and no one wants to hear it, or worse say, "you are wrong, the internet told me my way is better!"

I'll admit it, sometimes we are very wrong, it happens to everyone, but the point I am trying to make is the attitude of the trained alienates the untrained, and the attitude of the untrained marginalizes/belittles the hours we've all spent in basements/school furthering our ability to make music.

All that this does is make both sides feel like they are talking to a brick wall.

I don't blame either side, but I think we all need to try and remember that everyone sucked at music at one point. We need to treat each other with respect and have healthy debate when things are not in agreement, instead of attacking each other. The irony of it all is, many of the questions asked here have a generally agreed upon answer, and what drives me crazy is when people are more or less in agreement and continue to argue without realizing it.


TL,DR: This forum is too diverse for us to ever get 100% together on every topic, but we need to RESPECT that we all have different training and backgrounds.

We need to work as a team to solve problems instead of marginalizing each other's opinions due to their current knowledge base, even if this base is founded on misinformation. Everyone on this website sucked at music at some point, and we all forget that.
"There are two styles of music. Good music and bad music." -Duke Ellington

"If you really think about it, the guitar is a pointless instrument." - Robert Fripp
Last edited by Jet Penguin at Oct 1, 2014,
#4
The problem is that people ask the same stupid questions over and over again. Myself and others were once a helpful bunch, but then the novelty wore off and now we here. Sooner or later though, there'll be more people who have recently become knowledgable who want to teach others (and in the process learn by teaching).

The whole thing is a cyclic process: New knowledge enters > Helpfulness > Boredom > Everyone hates MT > Try to invigorate new more interesting discussion (e.g. the old composition challenges or Jazz_Rock's listen along's) > New people come along to wax poetic about the basics > Old people either disapear or just float about
#5
I know I'll sound like a broken record here, but it doesn't help when we have people who deliberately troll. And, after we all call out the trolls, then people who haven't spent enough time in MT to realize the general attitude of this place come in and see everyone (the troll(s) and the MT regs) covered in shit, so to speak.

On a positive note, I do feel like organized_rock_feel's and Eastwinn's threads have been solid lately. Good discussion and very interesting.
#6
'trolling' as sam would have it is a legitimate way to create discussion.
i don't know why i feel so dry
#7
I don't understand why people from the pit are coming here!!!

Quote by crazysam23_Atax
I do feel like organized_rock_feel's

I should have copyrighted this when I had the chance goddamnit

...modes and scales are still useless.


Quote by PhoenixGRM
Hey guys could you spare a minute to Vote for my band. Go to the site Search our band Listana with CTRL+F for quick and vote Thank you .
Quote by sam b
Voted for Patron Çıldırdı.

Thanks
Quote by PhoenixGRM
But our Band is Listana
#8
Quote by Xiaoxi
I don't understand why people from the pit are coming here!!!


at first we were just astonished by the attitudes here

then a bunch of us informally decided that we wanted to use this space to talk about music in a broad context.

probably due to the pit slowly down
i don't know why i feel so dry
#10
A fair bit actually.

It's become like Stack Exchange, which is an Q&A forum not a discussion forum. One big reason for that is regulars stopped leading discussion. It's become all new people or far less experienced/knowledgable people asking questions and getting answered. That's not an interesting dynamic and doesn't encourage any kind of discussion. I'm not blaming new people. The exact opposite actually. The regulars have stopped putting in any effort to keeping the forum an interesting environment for discussion.

There is a distinct divide between the hyper-conservatism and newer view points. Part of what I'm doing with my threads is trying to break down that divide and start talking about music instead of just the details. The details is where a lot of the problems have come up lately. I think it's good that there's been a small influx of users that are more interested in newer music, but at the same time it's become cliquey. It's become me/will/snazz/easty/whoever vs. everyone else. This also isn't a healthy environment. And there is blame on all sides here. There's been inordinate amounts of backlash against this influx from the older users (including questionable bans and thread closures) and there has been an effort on the part of the new users to invoke change through purely negative means. Coming in and alienating and attacking people will never work to change the forum in any positive way.

There is also a problem with moderation. And I'm not trying to attack anyone here. I don't think the mods don't know what they're talking about and more than that I don't think it matters. Good moderators don't have to be experts, but they do have to be present. This thread is a perfect example: https://www.ultimate-guitar.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1657774
We didn't need moderator input and we didn't need the thread to be closed, but we did need mod presence in that thread to, you know, moderate the discussion. There has also been a pretty short leash for the new users (especially Will, but possibly others) and I don't think that's appropriate either. Users who enter into the discussion with new ideas, even if they're being a bit overly aggressive, shouldn't be punished just because they strongly disagree. Now, I'm sure there are reasons for Will's ban that have nothing to do with you disagreeing with him, but being perfectly honest, I'm sure someone who wasn't so strongly opposed to you would have gotten more rope. Again, there are times where discussion can be guided without the use of warnings/bans/thread closures. Mods aren't police. They're moderators.

I'd also be lying if I said I didn't think there were some individual users that are pretty dry lunchy that bring down the quality of the forum.

#wearethechange
#longpost
#noonewillreadit
#11
dorks from the pit and their troll threads are ruining the sanctity of musicians talk forum!!! they arent even musicians what with their "wubs" and such
#12
Quote by deadsmileyface
dorks from the pit and their troll threads are ruining the sanctity of musicians talk forum!!! they arent even musicians what with their "wubs" and such

Yeah!!! you can't even notate a wub!!!!

...modes and scales are still useless.


Quote by PhoenixGRM
Hey guys could you spare a minute to Vote for my band. Go to the site Search our band Listana with CTRL+F for quick and vote Thank you .
Quote by sam b
Voted for Patron Çıldırdı.

Thanks
Quote by PhoenixGRM
But our Band is Listana
#13
@Xiaoxi: I started using that name just for you. I will gladly refer to you as the original genius behind the name.
Last edited by slipknot5678 at Oct 1, 2014,
#14
^good man


I wish there was another forum for more interesting discussions instead of being lumped in with boring mechanics topics like scales/chords/etc

...modes and scales are still useless.


Quote by PhoenixGRM
Hey guys could you spare a minute to Vote for my band. Go to the site Search our band Listana with CTRL+F for quick and vote Thank you .
Quote by sam b
Voted for Patron Çıldırdı.

Thanks
Quote by PhoenixGRM
But our Band is Listana
Last edited by Xiaoxi at Oct 1, 2014,
#15
Quote by sickman411
There's a lot of people who aren't happy with the way things roll here in MT, and MT is getting a bit of a bad reputation within UG.

A lot of people have been trying to change the general tone of MT threads and posts, but some people feel like there's some backlash against it by other forum regulars. Of course these people haven't always gone about it in the best of ways, but that's another story.

Anyway, I feel like it would be appropriate to discuss what we think could be improved in this subforum.

So yeah let's do that.


well, it comes down to this.

You have a bunch of experts who couldn't possibly be wrong about anything, yet disagree with each other.

Welcome to the internet. And btw, it's always been this way.
#16
So...what you're saying is you want to have more composition challenges?


Let's go man.


I've been thinking about posting a new one because it might help me get started up again, but I haven't thought of what it would be about. I want something general enough so that the traditionalists and the modernists can participate. Perhaps something general like a formal sketch? Maybe loud/slow-many voice- thin texture- out.


I've enjoyed the recent discussions. It was nice to have something other than theory Q&As. The next step is composition. Come on. U kno u want 2


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#17
Well,

I've been here since 2009. I've always said it how I see it.

I do tend to be straight forward and not mince words. I also don't walk around handing other's lollipops when I get called out. People seem to be surprised there.

But I've always been that way. I'll always be that way. Hopefully most of you figured me out a long time ago.

But, no I'm not mean, I'm just not good for you if you have thin skin and can't read.

But, in everything I do, I'm here to help. If I "slap you awake" or I say encouraging words...it's all the same. I have no other agenda.

Best,

Sean
#18
Quote by jazz_rock_feel
...moderators don't have to be experts, but they do have to be present. This thread is a perfect example: https://www.ultimate-guitar.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1657774
We didn't need moderator input and we didn't need the thread to be closed, but we did need mod presence in that thread to, you know, moderate the discussion.
fair enough. Though there were no reports received in regard to that thread, I understand where you're coming from and that thread definitely turned into a bitchy little cat fight.

-sending pm.
===========
EDIT:

Perhaps the moderators are too lenient and need to dish out warnings for the slightest infringement whether it be the most minor trolling, flaming, spamming, or off topic post.

Maybe the moderators need to warn for any kind of negative attitude or hostility (no matter how passively aggressive) toward other users??

===========

So what is wrong with MT? This guy seems to have a clue...just tailor some of these steps to be appropriate to MT discussions...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ECgsfBzO6w

What makes MT
Si
#19
The problem is that people here study rules which don't completely apply to the music they play it listen to. Most people also don't have the outlets to get the "full story" on many things that are taken for granted
#20
Quote by bassalloverthe
The problem is that people here study rules which don't completely apply to the music they play it listen to. Most people also don't have the outlets to get the "full story" on many things that are taken for granted


outside of counterpoint there aren't any real rules in music theory, they are more like guidelines or an explanation of something that is happening in the music. that's kind of one of the things I know tends to turn people off to music theory is defining it as rules
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#21
Quote by losing battle
outside of counterpoint there aren't any real rules in music theory, they are more like guidelines or an explanation of something that is happening in the music. that's kind of one of the things I know tends to turn people off to music theory is defining it as rules


Pure smantics. Another problem with MT.

Obviously by rules I didn't mean strict rules. Im not suggesting writing minor v in a song will automatically ruin it
#22
Quote by 20Tigers

EDIT:

Perhaps the moderators are too lenient and need to dish out warnings for the slightest infringement whether it be the most minor trolling, flaming, spamming, or off topic post.

Maybe the moderators need to warn for any kind of negative attitude or hostility (no matter how passively aggressive) toward other users??

Obviously this is up to the modding staff, but I do think some sort of presence would help. Even if, whenever things got heated, there was just a post that said "keep it settled guys", you know just the reminder.


I think that the fault is on 'both' sides. I think quite a lot of us are very comfortable with the views that we have and we don't always like to spread out to consider or even acknowledge other views. As has been said, there are no 'rules' to music. There is no right or wrong, no black or white. I think everyone as a whole, both newer users and veterans, need to not be so hostile whenever an opposing view is presented, regardless of the intention of hostility.

This could be a pretty awesome forum. I've not been here super long, but I've already learnt a bit from it, and I'd like it to stay that way. I'd like more and more users to feel comfortable sharing their views without getting textually assaulted. We've had some pretty cool conversations, and it would be pretty cool if they were even larger, with even more involvement.

I like viewpoints to be challenged, especially in a field such as music, but I like the challenge to be done in an appropriate way.

Zach also makes a fair point about this becoming somewhat of a Q&A rather than a discussion board. Obviously the Q&A is important, but there's more than that. I mean this is the Musician's Talk forum, but how much of Musicianship is actually being discussed? The main discussions are either "what theory is this?" or "abstract/broader view of music". Bother topics are fine, both have merit, but neither are really 'musicianship' you know? They can be, but they never really are. We've had some exceptions (How Do You Compose thread), but most don't really fit.

I mean, as much as I love jazz_rock_feel's threads, they tend to address the topic of music more than musicianship as well. They could talk about musicianship (ie, how do you use silence [which I think actually was mentioned in that thread], how do you use patterns to develop themes [play off of the new complexity v minimalism thread], etc). But I feel like the current state of mind of the user's in the forum wouldn't really support that. Even if jazz_rock_feel were to address his topics from that angle, I don't think many people would be discussing "actually I do use minimalist elements in songs to establish this", and although I can't speak for him, I reckon that's probably why he phrases his threads in the way he does (you have to plant the idea before you can use it).


I just typed a lot and I didn't really mean to. Overall, there just needs to be a change of attitude of virtually every member here. Everyone needs to be more welcoming to different thoughts, even if they're viewed as outdated, or antagonising, or trolling, or dumb, or whatever. We just need to get to the point where everyone feels comfortable discussing and learning things that they aren't too familiar with, without fear of being attacked you know.


that's all.
it's all just coming back
it's all coming back

it's all coming back to me
#23
I can hear what you guys are saying.

Basically you are saying that we treat all new people with distaste, refuse to help them and are general assholes.

Firstly, do you believe this is true?
And if so, what would you like done specifically?
And no, Guitar Hero will not help. Even on expert. Really.
Soundcloud
#24
Quote by AlanHB
I can hear what you guys are saying.

Basically you are saying that we treat all new people with distaste, refuse to help them and are general assholes.

Firstly, do you believe this is true?
And if so, what would you like done specifically?

I was just kidding with my post.

I don't think that's true at all. Most of us are helping people and not being assholes.
#25
Quote by Elintasokas
I don't think that's true at all. Most of us are helping people and not being assholes.


Yeah, that's actually what I think too. We do get in heated discussions sometimes, but that's just how it goes. We have a bunch of people with strong opinions and theoretical knowledge having strong debates with eachother.

Admittedly every now and then it gets out of hand, but in those cases usually the thread gets closed, people cool down and things go back to normal. I don't think it is necessary to issue warnings to everyone in this situation, because we're all really passionate about music theory.

An interesting point was raised on the first page about a core group being semi-professional players, which separates us from the rest of UG. It's possible. What's also possible is that I think we may be an older age group too - I'm not sure how many teenagers make up MT vs the rest of UG. I think that this may also be a cause of the general "cut the crap" attitude in MT.

Quote by Baby Joel
I mean, as much as I love jazz_rock_feel's threads, they tend to address the topic of music more than musicianship as well. They could talk about musicianship (ie, how do you use silence [which I think actually was mentioned in that thread], how do you use patterns to develop themes [play off of the new complexity v minimalism thread], etc). But I feel like the current state of mind of the user's in the forum wouldn't really support that.


This paragraph claims that the regulars of the forum are the cause of a less diverse set of topic threads in the forum.

Have a look at the front page of the forum, right now. Take note of the authors of the posts. How many regulars have actually made threads? Not many. I would take that one step further and say that the only "interesting" threads to you were created by MT regulars, and the remainder are from "non-regulars".

This means that your argument has been rendered moot, as the regulars (for example Eastwinn and Jazz Rock) are the ONLY people who have promoted the thread topics you crave.

But what impact does this have for the forum, if the regulars rarely make threads. Well obviously they're a panel of experts to consult, and threads are created to ask them questions. The experts may not always agree with eachother, but I think the initial question is usually answered.

The "asshole" reputation is largely derived from when someone asks MT a question, and MT states that their knowledge of theory is flawed. The asker takes this badly and says we're assholes. I don't think this is being an asshole, people just don't like it because we end up telling a lot of people that their knowledge is flawed.
And no, Guitar Hero will not help. Even on expert. Really.
Soundcloud
#26
Quote by AlanHB
The "asshole" reputation is largely derived from when someone asks MT a question, and MT states that their knowledge of theory is flawed. The asker takes this badly and says we're assholes. I don't think this is being an asshole, people just don't like it because we end up telling a lot of people that their knowledge is flawed.

Well that and trolls with a hard on for MT taking every opportunity they can to rip on the MT forum.

For the most part the members here are an intelligent bunch and pretty good. We all make mistakes and have been guilty of at least one of those ten steps from the video I posted earlier. But it's not worth losing sleep over.

If you think someone is out of line ignore it rather than engaging. If it's so far out of line it needs a moderator's attention - report it.

If you can do something to make the place better - go for it. It's your forum.

Most of the users here are good sorts though. We don't always agree and sometimes things get harsh, but for the most part there are a lot of good people here.
Si
#27
The "asshole" reputation is largely derived from when someone asks MT a question, and MT states that their knowledge of theory is flawed. The asker takes this badly and says we're assholes. I don't think this is being an asshole, people just don't like it because we end up telling a lot of people that their knowledge is flawed.

There you go. That's the truth. Instead of dialogue, people don't like to be told they are wrong. They want to be told what they want to hear. And when people come here and say:

"Here's the thing I'd like to do. I'm lazy and have applied myself to nothing. You know I really dont want to work at anything, and take the path of least resistance to anything.

But, here's the problem. I suck at everything I do and cant figure out why".

And we point out... Hey, the reason you suck is because you should because youre lazy and before you go anywhere, you might want to change that...

Then WE, for daring to speak the truth and tell the Emperor he's naked are the "mean" negative assholes.

If you wanna sugar coat their path, you do it. I'm not here to do that. I'll continue being the "asshole" that doesn't mince words, but I'll bend over backwards to help a sincere person who is willing to just listen and put the work in.

I don't think MT has a problem I really don't. Its ebb and flow and from time to time people get heated. If I see someone jump unfairly at a user, I'll step in and call that guy out. You all know this, you've seen it before. Have I had my bad days that I'd like to have back, sure. We all have. But at the core, there are some good people. There are people here that will never see eye to eye and be fishing buddies, but as long as you don't MAKE it personal, it doesn't have to be.

Best,

Sean
#28
We should just have a mass MT exodus and not post for like a month or two and see what happens. It'll be interesting.

In all seriousness though. What Sean said.

The hobbyists/semi-pros have a bad attitude towards the trained/pros around here, and vice-versa. This needs to stop and we just need to respect each other and realize that we are all wrong probably all the time.

We need to get on the same team instead of inevitably splitting into these two factions who just dismantle each other on a regular basis.
"There are two styles of music. Good music and bad music." -Duke Ellington

"If you really think about it, the guitar is a pointless instrument." - Robert Fripp
#29
Quote by Sean0913
The "asshole" reputation is largely derived from when someone asks MT a question, and MT states that their knowledge of theory is flawed. The asker takes this badly and says we're assholes. I don't think this is being an asshole, people just don't like it because we end up telling a lot of people that their knowledge is flawed.

There you go. That's the truth. Instead of dialogue, people don't like to be told they are wrong. They want to be told what they want to hear. And when people come here and say:

"Here's the thing I'd like to do. I'm lazy and have applied myself to nothing. You know I really dont want to work at anything, and take the path of least resistance to anything.

But, here's the problem. I suck at everything I do and cant figure out why".

And we point out... Hey, the reason you suck is because you should because youre lazy and before you go anywhere, you might want to change that...

Then WE, for daring to speak the truth and tell the Emperor he's naked are the "mean" negative assholes.

If you wanna sugar coat their path, you do it. I'm not here to do that. I'll continue being the "asshole" that doesn't mince words, but I'll bend over backwards to help a sincere person who is willing to just listen and put the work in.

I don't think MT has a problem I really don't. Its ebb and flow and from time to time people get heated. If I see someone jump unfairly at a user, I'll step in and call that guy out. You all know this, you've seen it before. Have I had my bad days that I'd like to have back, sure. We all have. But at the core, there are some good people. There are people here that will never see eye to eye and be fishing buddies, but as long as you don't MAKE it personal, it doesn't have to be.

Best,

Sean


But "you guys" are wrong a lot of the time. In the objective sense I mean
#31
Quote by Sean0913
No, we're not.

Best,

Sean


Yes you are. Well you might not be since most of your posts are telling people not to try things and then talking up your own teaching
#32
Can you provide some quotations of examples? I've rarely seen Sean objectively wrong, and I'm not one of his students.
#33
OH MY GOD WE CAN'T GO ONE THREAD WITHOUT THIS CRAP.

#Hopeisalie

But for real though, Sean's pretty knowledgeable.

If I can't stop the insanity I might as well take a side.
"There are two styles of music. Good music and bad music." -Duke Ellington

"If you really think about it, the guitar is a pointless instrument." - Robert Fripp
Last edited by Jet Penguin at Oct 2, 2014,
#34
There is a shortage of tampons and its really taking a toll
Quote by Nelsean
Lil B, the young based god, has the ability to create music so profound, that others around him cannot even comprehend his magnificent verbal progressive nature.

Quote by The_Blode
^ oh hey y'all females...welcome !
#35
Quote by bassalloverthe
Yes you are. Well you might not be since most of your posts are telling people not to try things and then talking up your own teaching


The thing about delusional people, is you cant take anything they say seriously. When they depart the truth, nothing they say will ever have credibility. They've already lost more ground than they could have ever hoped to gain.

That's you. You're that guy. Facts would crush you. I'd suggest that you steer clear of those.

Best,

Sean
#37
Quote by bassalloverthe
But "you guys" are wrong a lot of the time. In the objective sense I mean

Really? Is this about the Bach chorale thing? If I remember correctly, you disagreed on that.
#38
Quote by Elintasokas
Really? Is this about the Bach chorale thing? If I remember correctly, you disagreed on that.


No its talking about how shit posters are responsible for making MT shitty. If the threads werent months old and couldnt be looked up, we could go back. Point is, when it comes to harmony, sean makes some bad posts
#39
Cue dismantlement. RIP thread.

I'm out.
"There are two styles of music. Good music and bad music." -Duke Ellington

"If you really think about it, the guitar is a pointless instrument." - Robert Fripp
#40
Quote by bassalloverthe
No its talking about how shit posters are responsible for making MT shitty. If the threads werent months old and couldnt be looked up, we could go back. Point is, when it comes to harmony, sean makes some bad posts



The truth is, this place is Ultimate Argument.com

always has been, always will be.

It's the place people go to reinvent themselves as experts, and to argue with other experts.

Sad, but true
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