#1
So it's been a good solid few months since I posted anything on here, collab or otherwise. You may have heard RedDeath9's and my other collabs if you've lurked on this forum for a while, and if you have, there should be no surprises here. It's long and pompous and we worked really hard on it.

This one started from a long string of ideas I had lying around in my guitar pro folder from several years back; I presented it to Jatinder and he and I agreed to form something out of it. I don't think either of us really expected it to blow up into this sort of proportion, but then again, neither of us ever really know if or when we're actually going to finish something we start.

So, take a listen, try to follow along with the story; it makes 15 minutes of general MIDI slightly easier to swallow. Please comment and tell us what you think, and most importantly, enjoy it!
Attachments:
Forming a New Earth.zip
#3
I had a massive reply I was about to send but then my computer crashed. Sorry, I'll update this post continually until I've said what I wanted to say.

Anyway, the first 8 bars make me think of LoZ (RedDeath9 on that bit?) around Majora's Mask with the evil moon. I've only played OoA and OoS in-depth so I'm afraid my knowledge is somewhat minimal. The riff at 25 is absolutely insane, I love it. The guitar melodies near the end of the section are really awesome too.

The dissonant section is really good although perhaps somewhat overdrawn, I think it could be compressed a little.

The sour attitude at 147 must've been difficult to compose, but it's a really nice break from all the dissonance before hand. But then you do another 180 (except towards the z-axis) with those really awesome harmonies at 179. I noticed the reference to the first distorted section that came just after the harmonies.

I think the transition between 200 and 201 could have been made better. Perhaps make the cymbals in bar 200 into crash cymbals since you use those in the next section and make Guitar 1 have a fill using 8th notes. That should make the transition a little smoother (IMO). The driving beat in the elemental section was really well placed in terms of pacing.

I love the tension and build up at around 221-224, especially with the strings. The intervallic phrasing with the guitars at 229 was very tasteful. 252 was a crappy transition. Try a similar approach to what I mentioned at 200-201.

"Flourish" is like LoZ tonality meets FF prelude, really awesome. The bass that comes in after the acoustic section reminded me of some more LoZ and Romantic era classical music.

"Watch... Create" reminds me of Emperor with the phrasing and augmented chords (I've been abusing augmented chords as well lately). The build up is similar to the previous one but is drawn out slightly longer. Using the synth was quite effective for chordal support.

I love the little 32nd notes at around 291 and continuing sections. It was the type of melody that instantly sticks.

I laughed at the humans reference at bar 318. The dissonant piano was really effective. So much like Blotted Science but not ballistic and more creepy.

I think the acoustic section at ~388 would benefit from some (modulated) melodies that was heard at the end of one of the earlier sections (the one in 7/8 at around 37-40). I think it would tighten up this section (thematically anyway). I think the strings at around ~345 could be a little quieter but otherwise very good. Transition at 360 was bad as well. The complete fade out is what killed it.

The build up at 413-416 was good but I was expecting it to have modulated at each bar. The riff at 417 is absurdly good and I noticed the recap. I loved the LoZ/FF arpeggios at 445, this climax is really good. 459 I recognise the 32nd note motif from before, the harmonies at 464, 468 and 472 make it so totally worth it. The outro is appropriate.

I know I had some criticisms in there but it was really good. I would struggle to write something of this magnitude and it wouldn't be half as awesome as this. Anyway, I have some stuff of my own that I've posted here but that's nearly 2.5 months old now. I might put some stuff up later this year if I get the chance.
Last edited by HaydenHohns at Oct 3, 2014,
#4
Thanks for the crit, dude. Your insight is appreciated as always, and glad to see you made an appearance on the thread. Glad you liked it overall.

Yeah, it is hard to maintain consistently good transitions with a song as massive as this, because eventually you just kind of start running out of ideas for transitions. Sections come and go with no problem, but for me, at least, a good transition is always a real challenge.
#5
@Tarbosh: No worries man, life has been very busy for me lately so finding the time to compose or chat on here is difficult. I couldn't pass up this piece though. I have the same problem myself when it comes to transitions. I usually look to 20th Century Classical to get some neat transitions but I agree, they're a pain. Have you considered breaking the piece up into two or more parts? I reckon you could split it up and get a bit more out of it in total and then make a suite or something. Or maybe you like to brag that your average song length is ten minutes or something.

When I have some time at the end of the year I'll get one (or both) of you to look at the next set of tracks I'm working on if that's OK. I still have compositional ADHD although implementing my style in Grindcore makes that less apparent.
#6
Hey guys, I thought that I'd take a crack at reviewing your music, as I've thoroughly enjoyed the stuff I've heard from one of your previous collaboration "Ouroboros" and the stuff that was written in the previous (and now seemingly dead) UG collaboration.

As always, I plan to be as thorough as possible for every section, and then I'll give an overall evaluation of the piece as a TLDR.

---
The Architect Survey

Carnival, circus--carousels. It definitely reminds me of the music you'd hear at a place like a circus.

The Perfect Universe

Despite the drastic change in tempo and intensity, the transition from the previous part is incredibly seamless, which is a good part of what makes this section great. It reminds me a little bit of Ka$cade by Animals as Leaders in a strange sort of way, but it has an obstinate, and easier to follow pulse to the rhythm. The snares clearly highlight the higher notes of the distorted guitar rhythms while the crashes seem to follow a clear 7 beat pattern that I can count out like "1-2-3-4-1-2-3-1-2-3-4-1-2-3-" etc. The slap bass is excellent for the percussive, aggressive feel the overall section has. The mix of the synth and strings is pretty cool--it puts a modern "digital" touch to something that would ordinarily be seen as classical.

But one is plagued.../And a childlike curiosity

Again, the transition into this section was seamless. This section kind of blows my mind due to the interesting, unconventional, and somewhat drastic chord changes (for example, Bar 27. It was really cool to see how you guys resolved the first idea in this section with that chord in Bar 32). This chord progression was followed through to the end, which helps a listener digest it a bit more. The harmonization of the lead on Track 1 and the rhythm on Track 2 at Bars 37-40 is really nice. For some strange reason, the "But one is plagued" section gives me a somewhat similar feeling to a part in Tetsuo Sakurai's song called Brain Storm (awesome song, IMO ).

A childlike curiosity is a nice continuation of the previous idea and seems to work well as the set up to the new ideas presented in the next section.

Contemplating the Forbidden Act

At first it seems like this part is going to be a "chill-out section" with the light dynamics and soft synth sounds. It quickly picks up with the introductions of crashes and snares, and a clear intensity of the guitars and slap bass. The crashes are nice and powerful in this section, and they clearly highlight the seemingly accented notes in the rhythm. It seems as there's a bit of polyrhythm play in this section which was really quite nice to listen to. I got a little bit lost and confused at Bars 71 and 72 though, but after repeating this part a few more times--grinding it in, it makes a little bit more sense. Pretty cool section.

Stifled and Silenced/The Chains Finally Shatter

The bend at Bar 77 seems to come out of nowhere, and I'm not quite sure it's needed. I do love the chord progression and leads though. This section is extremely smooth and has a nice jazz-fusion kind of feel. The synth used kind of sounds like a Rhodes in this context. Very nice chilled out section, and lots of good interplay between the clean jazz guitar and the synth. Good lead in to the next section and good build up in intensity. No real complaints though, these parts are nice and tidy. Very clean work.


Gathering the space dust.../Hiding from the eyes...

Very cool return to "Contemplating the Forbidden Act" and "But one is plagued/A childlike curiosity." For some reason, it seems even more intense than before. Probably the key changes and more bars where the chords are being hit.

This isn't wrong.../Shroud the construction/Hesitant...

The transition's a little bit strange, but then again, "This isn't wrong" is very strange as a whole. "Shroud the construction" makes me get over it though, simply because of the repetition of the chord progression and the little bits that are going on underneath are cool. "Shroud" does well to lead into the next section, which shifts the song back to the original key. The leads are quite nice, and I like the harmonies.

But the sheer wonder...

Good "space-out" section to make the listener take it all in. The synth lead is a nice change of pace. It really does have a sci-fi vibe to it.


Dust Yields Mountains

Bar 205 is literally a smack to the face--it came out of nowhere and forces you to pay attention rather forcefully. It's a cool proggy part though.

*Damn, I just realized how long this post will be if I continue on like this, so I guess by this point I'll chime in when I hear something that really sticks out to me.*


Watch.../Strange Ripples/Investigate/Finding the defect

Watch: Cool layers toward the end.

Strange Ripples: Suspenseful.

Investigate: Nice leads, the "triplet" part toward the end seems to be a trademark of RedDeath9 by now. Forgive me if I'm wrong. lol


Finding the defect: Epic.


It's too late.../Banished/Experiencing

It's too late: Calm, but extremely contemplative.

Banished: Nice groove. The choppy feel of Bar 375 added nice variation though.

Experiencing: Similar mood to "It's too late," but it becomes very suspenseful and contemplative toward the end.


Confronting the absurd/The weight.../With the end

With the end: Sci-fi. Bar 457 was pretty cool.


They Stole Eternity from Me/A lesson...

They Stole: Pretty sad feeling in this part. Nice harmonies on the leads.

A lesson: Nice return to a previous idea to finish off.

---
TLDR:

Very nice piece--the extraordinary part about this particular piece is how streamlined the vast majority of the parts are. The references back to previous parts is very nice, and each time it's done, it's done in such a way that it doesn't seem "recycled." Overall, the song is pretty damn clean as far as transitions go. Lots of very nice and extremely complex ideas. I noticed the use of some "inactive" voicings, on top of the use of 10 different tracks--there was a ton of work that went into this piece.

My overall opinion: really cool--well done.
---


https://www.ultimate-guitar.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1652726

I'm currently editing two of my previous pieces "Invictus" and "Tempest" (working on Tempest as of late--really trying to target the issues that JazzDeath detailed). I'd like a review on both if you have the time and/or energy. I'll be sure to send my latest version of Tempest later tonight.
#7
Quote by HaydenHohns
Anyway, the first 8 bars make me think of LoZ (RedDeath9 on that bit?) around Majora's Mask with the evil moon. I've only played OoA and OoS in-depth so I'm afraid my knowledge is somewhat minimal. The riff at 25 is absolutely insane, I love it. The guitar melodies near the end of the section are really awesome too.


Haha, nailed it. I also just beat Majora's Mask this summer, so that comparison is even more accurate than you think. Although, I'm not sure how much it influenced me in this piece. I wrote 25 as well, Daniel's first riff is at 41 (although he did the bass at 25).

The sour attitude at 147 must've been difficult to compose, but it's a really nice break from all the dissonance before hand. But then you do another 180 (except towards the z-axis) with those really awesome harmonies at 179. I noticed the reference to the first distorted section that came just after the harmonies.


Actually, composing 147 was probably one of the easier parts of this song Just took the whole tone scale and ran with it. 163 was probably a bit more challenging, but the credit for the solo at 171 goes to Tarbosh. I take over at 183

I think the transition between 200 and 201 could have been made better. Perhaps make the cymbals in bar 200 into crash cymbals since you use those in the next section and make Guitar 1 have a fill using 8th notes. That should make the transition a little smoother (IMO). The driving beat in the elemental section was really well placed in terms of pacing.


I thought of that to, specifically the guitar using 8th notes rather than 16'ing all the way to 201. But it wasn't a big enough problem to correct. But I might just do it now.

252 was a crappy transition.


Really? I kinda liked it. STOP HATING ON ALL MY TRANSITIOOONSSS!!! Nah but I think I'll keep this one as it is.

Transition at 360 was bad as well. The complete fade out is what killed it.


ARRRGHHHHHH!!!! Okay, I can agree with you on this one.

I know I had some criticisms in there but it was really good. I would struggle to write something of this magnitude and it wouldn't be half as awesome as this. Anyway, I have some stuff of my own that I've posted here but that's nearly 2.5 months old now. I might put some stuff up later this year if I get the chance.


Thanks a lot. I'll check out your old stuff, and your new stuff whenever you put it up.

Quote by D2BII
Hey guys, I thought that I'd take a crack at reviewing your music, as I've thoroughly enjoyed the stuff I've heard from one of your previous collaboration "Ouroboros" and the stuff that was written in the previous (and now seemingly dead) UG collaboration.


Aw hell no, that was no collab, that was all me. But thanks for enjoying, I think I remember your crit

Despite the drastic change in tempo and intensity, the transition from the previous part is incredibly seamless, which is a good part of what makes this section great. It reminds me a little bit of Ka$cade by Animals as Leaders in a strange sort of way, but it has an obstinate, and easier to follow pulse to the rhythm. The snares clearly highlight the higher notes of the distorted guitar rhythms while the crashes seem to follow a clear 7 beat pattern that I can count out like "1-2-3-4-1-2-3-1-2-3-4-1-2-3-" etc. The slap bass is excellent for the percussive, aggressive feel the overall section has. The mix of the synth and strings is pretty cool--it puts a modern "digital" touch to something that would ordinarily be seen as classical.


Interesting, I think AAL's new album influenced me a lot. I see bars 9-24 as a mix between Exivious and AAL's "Tooth and Claw" (seriously, I pretty much ripped the drum style straight from that...)

For some strange reason, the "But one is plagued" section gives me a somewhat similar feeling to a part in Tetsuo Sakurai's song called Brain Storm (awesome song, IMO ).


Hm, I'll have to check it out!


Contemplating the Forbidden Act

I got a little bit lost and confused at Bars 71 and 72 though, but after repeating this part a few more times--grinding it in, it makes a little bit more sense. Pretty cool section.


Yeah, that happens to me a lot with Tarbosh's stuff Upon first listen, it's like... what the hell is going on? Takes a couple listens for it to make sense.

Stifled and Silenced/The Chains Finally Shatter

The bend at Bar 77 seems to come out of nowhere, and I'm not quite sure it's needed.


I've thought the same about that bend, I'm not sure why I found it necessary. I think it was a way of connecting the chord in 76 to 77, but I got a little trigger happy with the pitch shift function

Watch.../Strange Ripples/Investigate/Finding the defect

Watch: Cool layers toward the end.

Strange Ripples: Suspenseful.

Investigate: Nice leads, the "triplet" part toward the end seems to be a trademark of RedDeath9 by now. Forgive me if I'm wrong. lol


Hmm, interesting, what do you mean by triplet part? I only wrote 273-287, and Daniel took over for the rest. You mean the 293 thing? That lead? I'll be honest, I do that a fair bit, so your claim is justified. Especially with those particular accidentals (major 2nd, minor 2nd, root; I love that shit.)

My overall opinion: really cool--well done.


Thank you very much! I'll check out your stuff as soon as possible. I think I've already listened to Tempest and Invictus, I just never commented in the thread. So I'll check out the new versions. Thanks for the crit.

EDIT:
Quote by HaydenHohns
Have you considered breaking the piece up into two or more parts?


Yes. I had actually labelled some parts "Part 2, Part 3," etc. but then we thought it worked as a whole. It was a lot more disjointed earlier. Then we got some good ideas. And then we added the story, which made it even more cohesive. However, I feel like we could still split it into two parts - one for the creation of the planet, and another for his experience on it. But that would require a LOT of new parts, and that's just too much damn work. I mean, look at what happened to Spirals. Goddamn. I need to finish that.
Last edited by RedDeath9 at Oct 4, 2014,
#8
Quote by RedDeath9
Aw hell no, that was no collab, that was all me. But thanks for enjoying, I think I remember your crit


My apologies!

Interesting, I think AAL's new album influenced me a lot. I see bars 9-24 as a mix between Exivious and AAL's "Tooth and Claw" (seriously, I pretty much ripped the drum style straight from that...)


Matt Garstka is incredible. No shame in ripping his style at all. It's beautiful to listen to. To be honest, I want to steal some of his stuff too.

And to be quite honest, to see those guys play live is an even more impressive experience. The three of those guys seriously look like gods on the stage.

Lastly, "Tooth and Claw" is quite underrated on that album. People were completely trashing it when they first released it. I mean, I wasn't too crazy about it myself when I first listened to it, but when I heard it within the context of the album, I grew to like it a lot (same with Lippincott). Listened to the entire album from start to finish at like 1am on a school night and was extremely impressed. Joy of Motion is probably my favorite of the three albums.

Physical Education and The Woven Web are masterpieces in themselves though...

Hm, I'll have to check it out!


I think the only version on Youtube is with Greg Howe--very fun live performance. Dennis Chambers was on drums then (complete beast of a drummer and he actually played on Greg Howe's Extraction album with Victor Wooten). Their performance of Extraction is probably one of my favorites though. If you like Sakurai, you should check out Casiopea. Cheesy 1970s-present jazz fusion, but it's amazing.


I've thought the same about that bend, I'm not sure why I found it necessary. I think it was a way of connecting the chord in 76 to 77, but I got a little trigger happy with the pitch shift function



It's all good.


Hmm, interesting, what do you mean by triplet part? I only wrote 273-287, and Daniel took over for the rest. You mean the 293 thing? That lead? I'll be honest, I do that a fair bit, so your claim is justified. Especially with those particular accidentals (major 2nd, minor 2nd, root; I love that shit.)


Yes! The 293 lead. I laughed a little when I heard those triplets. I might just bite those triplet licks if you guys keep it up.


Thank you very much! I'll check out your stuff as soon as possible. I think I've already listened to Tempest and Invictus, I just never commented in the thread. So I'll check out the new versions. Thanks for the crit.


Thank you very much.
#9
Haha, nailed it. I also just beat Majora's Mask this summer, so that comparison is even more accurate than you think. Although, I'm not sure how much it influenced me in this piece. I wrote 25 as well, Daniel's first riff is at 41 (although he did the bass at 25)...


I swear it's getting harder to work out who's doing what in your collabs (which is good IMO), although that opening section was obviously you. I also notice the difference in some of the solos, the more erratic tremolo picking stuff is definitely Tarbosh.

163 looks like it's easy to compose, I guess making a solo interesting for that long is definitely challenging.

I think it was Burning_Angel who made me change my way of transitions due to a super harsh crit he gave me (not that I adopted the way he does it though). I used to pull all the tricks you've done in this piece and then I spent some time with Modern Classical music and decided to come up with some weird (but IMO effective) transitions. I'll sometimes develop a whole part of a section to have segments of the next section in it every time. Mathematically speaking, for section (excluding boundary states) $n \in N, \exists n + 1 \in N$ (if you know latex you'll know what to do with that and as I recall you said you had done some Introductory Calculus and Discrete Maths). I generally follow that rule for my transitions.

That said, don't get too worked up about the transitions, I just became really anal about it after some feedback I received on this site (although I appreciate the criticism I received at the time, not trying to come off as being spoiled or anything).

I've been considering getting an Analog synth lately so I was thinking of extending some Grindcore pieces I had written [topic was called Grindcore x 3 or something]. I'll send you a link when I'm done if you don't get to it before I send the message.

Yeah, hurry up and finish it you slacker.
#10
Quote by D2BII
And to be quite honest, to see those guys play live is an even more impressive experience. The three of those guys seriously look like gods on the stage.


I'm seeing them live in November

Lastly, "Tooth and Claw" is quite underrated on that album. People were completely trashing it when they first released it. I mean, I wasn't too crazy about it myself when I first listened to it, but when I heard it within the context of the album, I grew to like it a lot (same with Lippincott). Listened to the entire album from start to finish at like 1am on a school night and was extremely impressed. Joy of Motion is probably my favorite of the three albums.

Physical Education and The Woven Web are masterpieces in themselves though...


It's probably my favorite album too. Fav songs are Physical Education, Woven Web and Crescent. I'm actually trying to learn some of the thumping stuff from Crescent, it's fun as ****.

I think the only version on Youtube is with Greg Howe--very fun live performance. Dennis Chambers was on drums then (complete beast of a drummer and he actually played on Greg Howe's Extraction album with Victor Wooten). Their performance of Extraction is probably one of my favorites though. If you like Sakurai, you should check out Casiopea. Cheesy 1970s-present jazz fusion, but it's amazing.


Just watched it, it was pretty sweet. I'll have to check out more.

Quote by HaydenHohns
I swear it's getting harder to work out who's doing what in your collabs (which is good IMO), although that opening section was obviously you. I also notice the difference in some of the solos, the more erratic tremolo picking stuff is definitely Tarbosh.


Yeah, we definitely have different soloing styles, my solos are much less shreddy (usually). I prefer short bursts of speed (I had my fair share of "tremolo" picking at 183, but that was on keyboard).

163 looks like it's easy to compose, I guess making a solo interesting for that long is definitely challenging.


I wouldn't say 163 was challenging, but 147 was pretty simple. Daniel wrote the solo at 171.

I think it was Burning_Angel who made me change my way of transitions due to a super harsh crit he gave me (not that I adopted the way he does it though). I used to pull all the tricks you've done in this piece and then I spent some time with Modern Classical music and decided to come up with some weird (but IMO effective) transitions. I'll sometimes develop a whole part of a section to have segments of the next section in it every time. Mathematically speaking, for section (excluding boundary states) $n \in N, \exists n + 1 \in N$ (if you know latex you'll know what to do with that and as I recall you said you had done some Introductory Calculus and Discrete Maths). I generally follow that rule for my transitions.


I do that, but it's probably to less of an extent than you. For instance, where sections 1 and 2 might have 30% similarity in your pieces, they're probably more like 5-10% in mine. Also, I had to look up latex but yeah, I see what you're saying now. I think. Within a song (N) there'll be two sections (n and n+1) with one section heavily borrowing from another. It'd be fun to try to make mathematical formulas around composition. i.e. 2n, 1/2n, is simply a length modifier, n+1 is n plus another instrument, or some shit. Yes, it'd be extremely difficult and impractical but it'd be FUN.
#11
I don't think I really have to critique anything in you guys' work, A+ as usual, this song and the story with it were really enjoyable to listen. Just gonna leave a quick note for you Tarbosh - I did go through some of your older songs and the major impression I got from those is that your style is very, very frenetic and high-octane, never really letting up or cooling down. To me (and this is completely subjective opinion) it became a bit tiresome to listen. But your newer stuff and the collabs with reddeath are much more controlled without feeling stunted, and in my opinion more enjoyable. Maybe it's a bit of his influence, maybe it's just your style maturing, either way you done did good kid. And I still maintain that both of you understand the technicalities of composition much better than me, so I really can't say much more. Cheers guys.
#12
Quote by |_JR_|
I don't think I really have to critique anything in you guys' work, A+ as usual, this song and the story with it were really enjoyable to listen. Just gonna leave a quick note for you Tarbosh - I did go through some of your older songs and the major impression I got from those is that your style is very, very frenetic and high-octane, never really letting up or cooling down. To me (and this is completely subjective opinion) it became a bit tiresome to listen. But your newer stuff and the collabs with reddeath are much more controlled without feeling stunted, and in my opinion more enjoyable. Maybe it's a bit of his influence, maybe it's just your style maturing, either way you done did good kid. And I still maintain that both of you understand the technicalities of composition much better than me, so I really can't say much more. Cheers guys.



Thanks, breh.

I definitely agree that my style has matured a lot. While I do still have a soft spot for the stuff like Relieved of Breath and Prophecy, I think I've come to settle into a less crazy, more proggy style that still has the frenetic elements of those older songs at times. Definitely at least in part due to Jatinder's influence but similarly I think I've had at least some influence on his work as well, if not only just because of how much work we've done together. Also I don't know shit about the technicalities of composition :3 i jes put in da pretty numbas
#14
Alright, let's have a gander at this beast.

Intro works, it's got a bit of that ocarina of time feel with that 3/4 accordeon thing which made me laugh.

I like the lead in with the slap bass and busy drums, it's energetic and gets you in the mood to ****in' rock.

But one comes in with a really cool riffing pattern on guitar, my only issue with this part is some of the harmonization choices, like measure 28 or 34, where some of the notes seem to clash pretty hard, I believe due to the bass/guitar and chords being held out not always really working to my ear.

I really like the basis of this riff and the feel on guitar though, it's really cool stuff.

Like some measure, particularly bar 37, the slap bass pattern with the guitars works really well, but I think some of other bars really need fine tuning in relation to how the instruments work together.

The next riff at 41 is pretty killer too, there's lots of stuff that reminds me of cynic but with a different flair to it, I dig it.

I like the idea at 77 again between the clean guitar and the rhodes type of lead, but there's some clashing again between the guitar, the keys and the bass, which really muddles the main idea, I think it could use a bit more focus overall, but maybe it's just a personal preference, I like the rhodes a lot so when I focus on that, it's really cool, but listening to everything together, it doesn't mesh as well as I'd like it to.

Just by muting the bass in a section like that I find it sounds more focused and better overall to my ear.

The riff at 93 (Chains) is great, again, sounds much more focused, I like it.

I like the idea at 102, I don't know if it's my sound card but I find the keys lead is way too low in the mix, just a thought.

Love the riff and variation at 131, one of my favorite parts overall yet. Really dig that, it's busy and frantic but everything really synchs together better.

Not really sure how I feel about the part at 155... I like the beat on drums a lot, and I like when it stabilizes at 163. I quite enjoyed the solo afterwards too, except again, not sure how well the harmonized guitar parts in the solo work with the underlying chords in some parts. I liked the feel of it overall, though.

The keys solo afterwards is cool too, the really strange shift in mood in the middle is really interesting and makes it sound fresh and exciting, so I like that.

I know it seems like a lot of criticism up to this part but honestly, I like the basis of every section up to here, I think polished, it would make really incredible stuff - the foundations are there and the guitar/keys ideas are really solid, it's full of cool chord choices, rhythmic feels and interesting licks, I just have an issue with the harmonization in some parts, particularly the role of the bass in some of the really busy stuff. That might sound weird coming from me, but I just feel in some sections of this song, less would be more on bass, since the rest is already really busy.

I'll review your song in chunks/sections to make it easier to read through and analyze
#15
Mmkay, continuing from bar 201.

I really don't like the transition into this, nor do I like the riff much; not sure what else to say, there's no real issue with the riff, I just don't see its value in context of the song, nor do I think it's particularly interesting.

I like the punches at 233, the song gets back on track for me at that point and gets back into its flow, but then it goes back to a similar pattern as before at 253 and I lose interest at that section again, unfortunately.

I like the pattern, the idea of harmonizing, and the added colors in that type of pattern at 265, but again, it seems like there are harmonization issues here and it sounds pretty muddy with the chords in back and all the different harmonies on different instruments, so although I like the idea a lot better than any other riff of this type previously implemented, this needs some serious polish, in my mind.

273 inserts a sort of, dissonant, acoustic guitar idea into the mix, but again, I'm not sure about the harmonization...

I used to write sections like this myself with that kind of odd harmonizations, and what I would consider to be sort of, shifting harmonies, but as I learned more about harmonization and counterpoint theory, someone taught me that when doing sections like this, the use of unisons, 4ths, 5ths, and octaves, led to certain parts of the passage sounding "hollow" so to speak, and it is very jarring to the ear to hear so many unisons followed by shifting harmonies.

There are ways to make sections like this sound very odd, and creepy, with interesting dissonances, but it takes a lot of fine tuning and this manages to create a certain mood, but seems flawed in its execution.

I ****ing love the idea of the dual flute counterpuntal solo, really cool vibe and atmosphere, again, a few details I think need ironing out, but overall, probably my favorite section of the piece yet when it comes to creativity/mood.

The riff at 298 is really sweet too, I like the unusual rhythmic approach and the colorations. I think it's by far one of the most solid parts of the song, and the punches throughout and variations are really chill. I dig that =D

The section at 318 has an interesting rhythmic and atmosphere idea, but again, harmonization issues make it sound cluttered and overwhelming to the ears.

When the solo comes on during that section, it's so brutally overwhelming the amount of held out notes it sounds like a wall of confusing noise, and I'm not really sure what to make of it.

I think the underlying progression needs to be strenghtened, ironed out, so that the lead can really shine on top of it, but that's just me. Maybe I'm just overly harsh about everything these days, so I apologize if I seem like a dick =/.


I think as I continue to listen through this entire thing the only real criticism I have over and over again has to do with harmonization and focus of the ideas.

There are really cool rhythmic patterns, great ideas, cool colorations, lots of nifty transitions, and some interesting atmospheres, but a lot of what I would consider mistakes in harmonizations and an overall lack of focus in the sections that makes it very hard to properly sink into the atmosphere or understand the emotion you're trying to convey in each section.

Again, I'm sure I sound harsh, but the type of work you guys make is very very ambitious, and making sure this type of dense, cluttered music works all around harmonically is an incredibly time consuming and complex endeavor. I think if the understanding of the underlying harmonic principles was understood and carried out carefully and with detail in your pieces, they'd be masterpieces, so if I seem unforgiving in my review, I apologize. I really think it has great potential, but it needs a lot of polish work, and a lot of in depth harmonic analysis.

Also I think melodic, and interesting bass lines, are fantastic in theory, but in music this incredibly busy, it really needs to be done with a judicious touch, and has to accentuate the main idea instead of try to deviate and continuously add more to everything; plenty of the ideas where the bass does a lot are already quite complex, and I don't think the bass needs to do all that, I think it needs to really bridge the gap between the drums and its pulse of the music, and the melodic sections.

Anyway, despite all that, I don't hate this at all, I've heard plenty of stuff that's more focused and has less harmonization mistakes that was much more boring and bland to listen to.

And what do I know, I'm just some dude on the internet
#17
make t and c's gr8 again
o()o

Quote by JamSessionFreak
yes every night of my entire life i go to bed crying because i wasnt born american
#18
Quote by JazzDeath
ow


no, i seriously appreciate your input. you're definitely right about the messy harmonies and such. i've been tryyying to be more disciplined about it with my recent stuff (actually, Promises came after this, and i think you had similar criticisms about that one, but the main point i took from your crit on Promises was to try to create stronger, more memorable melodies). I think I just try to stuff too much... stuff into... stuff, sometimes. you know?