#1
Alright MT, Let's Get The Party Started!

The first Jet Talks Jazz is now live! Today's topic: CST and Analysis!

This is a tough thread to start off with, but I feel we need to, as it will provide a great foundation for all our further discussions.

Unfortunately, due to the volatile nature of the subject matter, I am going to need to make a disclaimer:

Look Upon My Disclaimer, Ye Mighty, and Despair!

1. I do not claim there is a correct or incorrect way to play a guitar.

2. This thread is not about modes.

3. This thread is not about modes.

4. I will be referring to some scales as "a mode of x" or by a modal name "a Dorian scale." THIS IS FOR ORGANIZATIONAL PURPOSES ONLY AND DOES NOT AFFECT #2 & 3

5. Suppose you missed those last 3 points and you think this is about modes. If you are from a classical/composing background, I would ask you to hold your tongue, as the theory/practice of modes in that context radically differs from modes in contemporary music. If you are from a rock/pop background, I would still ask you to hold your tongue because there is FAR too much misinformation out there, and I plan on spend a future Jet Talks Jazz clearing everything up, maybe even once and for all.

6. I will be throwing around a TON of terminology, so this thread assumes you have a good grasp on Roman Numeral Analysis, diatonic function, the concept of key changes, and note spellings. If you don't, there is plenty of good info on MT/UG; try not to flood the thread with inane questions.

7. As always, this thread is not a place for pitiable arguing. Ignore negative behavior, and respect everyone who posts, regardless of skill level. If you have questions, ask them, and I will answer ASAP.

Everybody Good? Ok, 3, 2, 1, Let's Jam!


Chord Scale Theory (CST) and Analysis

A brief history: In the 1950's, there was a big huge meeting of the jazz theorists and minds, in an attempt to codify alot of the info and strategies musicians had been using to play this new, improvised music. A man named George Russell had a theory that if you extended tertian (built in 3rds) chords all the way up to the 13th and re-arranged the pitches, you would get a 7-note scale. The jazz minds ran with this idea, proposing that logically, any tertian chord can be associated with a 7-note scale. This became what is now known as Chord-Scale Theory, further known as CST.

A quick example: Lets extend a C major triad to the 13. Just stack diatonic 3rds!

C E G B D F A -> Rearranged into a scale -> C D E F G A B -> C major. Wow.

(everyone who claims the F nat. is an avoid note be quiet, I'm getting to that, jeez).

We can do this process with any chord in theory, but we are going to digress for a minute and clear up a big huge myth.

II-V's and You

Many chord progressions have what is called a II-V. Literally, this is a II chord moving to a V chord, like so:

Dm7-G7 -> II-V in Cmajor

Cool right? I know. But Figuratively, these could also potentially be II-Vs:

F-G, Dm7b5-G, Dm7-Db7, etc. ->all II-V's in C major!!! Why? Patience...

There are many more, and some special cases as well, my point is it is not as rigid as you think.

Let's take that simple II-V, stack the chords all the way, and snag some quick chord scales:

Dm7 -> D F A C E G B -> D Dorian????? Uh oh.....

G7 -> G B D F A C E -> G...Mixolydian????? OH GOD MODES WHAT HAVE I DONE!

TO BE CONTINUED ( Dramatic Cliffhanger Music)

Right Now!

Everyone alright? No one died? Good.

What you have experienced is possibly the biggest cause of the modal flame war. Pay attention closely:

Because the NAMES of those scales are accurate (that is a Dorian scale), advocates of CST sometimes claim (erroneously) that the appropriate chord scales for a II-V in C would be:

Dm7 - G7 - Cmaj7 -> D Dorian G Mixolydian C Ionian (major)

Oh god that's horrible. Disagree with me? I DARE YOU to strum those chords on the guitar and tell me you hear that chord progression as being in 3 different keys. Exactly.

The reason they did this is to keep the chords and their corresponding scales sharing the same root notes. If they said Dm7 = C Major, the connection may be less obvious, especially when we get into harder chords.

Unfortunately, the price of this organization was...well...go look at the last thread on modes. We will come back to this in a later JTJ.

We are going to deal with this conundrum this way:

A II-V and its resulting I are all in the same key, and all share the parent scale. End of Story.

Dm7- G7- C = It's all C major, babe. More on this soon.

Alrighty Jet, How/Why Do We Chord Scale?

Let's do the why first. The "why" is that generating a chord scale provides us with 7 "safe" notes for each chord. Now obviously, there are other notes/colors available, but these scales will give us the "vanilla" and "classic" sound. No fusion yet, I'm afraid.

We know "how" to do this: we stack thirds diatonically up to the 13th of the chord, then make it into a scale. "But Jet," I hear you cry! "How do we know what key we're in? Jazz changes like every three seconds!"

It does, but you have a road map. Behold:

Dm7 G7| C | | Gm7 C7 | F

This isn't as hard as it looks! We have a II-V-I in C major. All those chords take a C major scale.

But what's next? V minor? I7? Huh? Don't freak out! That's just another II-V in F!

Gm7 and C7 take an F major scale!Which leads me to our first Jet Pro Tip:

The II in a II-V is where the key change begins!

As soon as you see that Gm going to a C, we are now in need of an F major scale.

Now here's the part where my flame alert goes off. "But Jet! F is the IV chord in C major! That ain't no key change!"

You're right. It isn't. F is the IV chord. But,

When we are moving through a II-V, we are in the key of the II-V!

That will serve you will in analyzing a tune!

Whew. Crazy. Everyone O.K? Lets keep rolling.

What Happens In a Minor Key?

Easy. A minor key II-V looks like this:

Dm7b5 - G7 - Cm

Just as the major key II-V uses C major all the way through, the minor key II-V uses C Harmonic Minor all the way through. That's right, kids. Harmonic Minor.

But you like Aeolian(natural minor)? You can use it, AFTER the V chord, when you have stopped moving harmonically. We are trying to follow the chords, not skate over them.

So Now What???

I want to address this "avoid note" thing: You have two options for scale choice on a Maj7 chord:

1. A Maj7 Chord: A Major (Ionian) Scale IF the chord is the I chord.

Now hang on: People are going to claim that this is wrong and that you should use a Lydian scale, as the #4 eliminates the avoid note. This is a valid strategy, but so is this one: The natural 4, the "avoid note" is ACTUALLY an unresolved 4-3 suspension. Counterpoint, suckers. That 4 wants to go down to 3 so hard, and if you can resolve it nicely, you can add a jet engine's worth of propulsion to your lines.

OR: You can just use Lydian, in fact, lets go to the next one:

2. All other Maj7 Chords: A Lydian Scale (1 2 3 #4 5 6 7)


Jet, Dude, its too much theory! How do I analyze tunes?

Check this out. The II-V's are like road signs, telling you what key centers you are in. Identify those key centers, and play the appropriate major or harmonic minor scale!

All you have to do now is watch out for the exceptions (evil laugh)

Exceptions?

Yes. There are not many. Here's what you may run into. We will get more into these in a later JTJ, but here is the basic chord scale survival guide.

1. A seemingly random, possibly non-diatonic Major 7 chord: Lydian.

2. A seemingly random, possibly non-diatonic Dominant Chord: Lydian Dominant. Looks like -> (1 2 3 #4 5 6 b7), it's a mode of MM. more on this later. If that scale is beyond your capacity, use Mixolydian.

3. A minor 7 chord that is not part of a II-V: Is it the root? Aeolian. If not? Dorian, UNLESS it is a III chord. III is a substitute for I, just use the appropriate major scale.

4. A minor7b5 chord that is not part of a II-V: Use a Locrian scale for now, that is beyond the scope of this thread. (We'll get there soon enough)

5. A diminished 7 chord: This one's tough. Find what root the chord points to, and use Harmonic Minor off of that root. For now anyway

6. A minor IV chord: Dorian (more on this later)

7. A minor/maj7 chord : Melodic Minor (more on this later)


Good Lord. I realize this may all be insane right now, but I'm trying to give everyone the info so we can run with it later.

Summary:

1. Use the Major or Harmonic Minor scale to navigate II-V's and "typical" chord progressions.

2. Remember, to follow rule #1, a II-V is in a key, even if the key doesn't change.

One more example:

|Am7 - D7 | G | F#m7-B7 | E

As soon as we see that second II-V, we are now in E Major as far as scale choice is concerned.

Should you run into one of those "exceptions" follow the guide.

You now have a "vanilla" way of tackling almost any harmony that might pop up. If a chord has numbers higher that 9, forget them for now.

Final Thoughts

It was INCREDIBLY difficult for me to condense all of CST into simple principles that could be assimilated in five minutes. As a result, this thread doesn't cover it all, and you'll notice I haven't put up a bunch of tunes and examples.

This is where you guys come in: I want, no, I NEED questions. Let's talk about this stuff, bring me your trouble spots. It doesn't even have to be jazz, these scales work for all harmony and genre!

I have only laid the information down. Let's take it now and run as far as we can!

Jet Penguin returning to base.
"There are two styles of music. Good music and bad music." -Duke Ellington

"If you really think about it, the guitar is a pointless instrument." - Robert Fripp
Last edited by Jet Penguin at Oct 6, 2014,
#2
This is a double post. WE NEED Q&A. If there are good questions, I will put them and the answers here so other do not have to search the whole thread for answers!

Bring examples from tunes and I will be more than happy to FULLY analyze them, Roman numerals chord scales and all. THEY DON'T EVEN HAVE TO BE JAZZ!

EDIT: MY FIRST POST IS THE EXACT CHARACTER LIMIT. DAMN I'M GOOD.


1. What's the deal with these things that are not II-V, but you call them II-V's?
-Both chords are substitutes for the II and/or the V. A key point of Jazz is everyone's differing interpretation of the harmony, so you can improvise over them as if they were in fact a "vanilla" II-V.

2. Why Lydian on the non-diatonic Major 7s?
-When the chord does not function as I, there is no 4-3 suspension to resolve!

3. What the heck is a backdoor II-V?
-Check it out. Picture a classic IV-I plagal cadence:

F - C.

Imagine we want that plagal cadence, but we want to preserve the strong root motion found in a V-I "authentic" cadence. Can we do that? Is it legal? Yeah. We're gonna stick that root motion between the IV and I chords:

F - Bb - C.

Cool, but now we have this weird succession of major chords. Let's fix that, smoothing the voice leading by creating a II-V:

Fm7-Bb7-C.

Awesome, but that dominant 7 makes the motion to C a little heavy, maybe. Can't we do something about that whole step resolution to make it smoother? Yep. We can anticipate the 3rd of the I chord and put it into the bVII chord:

Fm7 - Bb7(#11) - C. We now need a Bb Lydian Dominant chord scale. That scale is usually played over both chords, you don't need F Dorian.

That's where a backdoor dominant comes from. It isn't unique to jazz at all.
"There are two styles of music. Good music and bad music." -Duke Ellington

"If you really think about it, the guitar is a pointless instrument." - Robert Fripp
Last edited by Jet Penguin at Oct 6, 2014,
#3
Ah yes, I remember my old trumpet instructor mentioning this at one point. He referred me to "Lydiot" from his (George Russel) Ezz-thetics album.

As for bringing in an example, do you think you might be able to take an excerpt from a score and break it down? Maybe a personal favourite you have? Also, if you do, could you explicitly show how you find these II-V chord progressions when it isn't so obvious?

Thanks for the lesson, really appreciate it.
#4
Could we have a few sheet music examples of non-diatonic maj7 chords in a progression? And an accompanying explanation?
#6
Hey JetPenguin,

Great job. Now, about those modes ... :-)

The advice is really good. There are obviously more ways to treat a ii V than just sticking to the chosen scale for the implied I (i). But you'll get to that later? (e.g. ii - JM6, V -JM7, i - Aeolian).

One point I think you should add about playing the parent scale against the ii V ... some may think therefore they must plough through playing e.g the major scale without regard to what the actual chords from the key are (which can be done), but I suggest you point out that many often arpeggiate or play around with the chord tones of the chord of the moment (so for Dm7 G7, spell out the Dm7 and the G7, or just spell out the Dm7 against both).

cheers, Jerry
#7
So.....I've been working on fingerstyle chord-melody stuff for a while now. Actually started out doing this some years back but all I had at the time was a big 'ol Martin D-18 which is not exactly an optimal jazz box.....

Anyway, I've become a bit more serious about it in recent months and I bought a little Ibanez semi-hollow and put flatwounds on it.

I've been listening to a LOT of jazz guitar and deciding who I like. Lots of the single-note-line guys are very nice, but I'm playing solo guitar here. So most of what sits on my ears well are tunes by many of the old masters, Ellis and Pass and Breau and those guys.
So... I'm watching a chord-melody lesson from Joe Pass on YouTube the other day, and found it very instructive.
Essentially, it was "take the melody line and find chords that sound good". One can get as tecnical as one likes and obsess over modes and all..... But in the end it's what comes out of the amp.

There are many different paths to that end; some folks have to carefully construct every passage and some folks just wing it.
I'm not a professional musician, and I don't really have time to devote a great deal of study. So I'm winging it. Sometimes, it actually works....
#8
Hi Jerry,

That's next. I just wanted to dive right in and explain some of the basics.

I plan on doing the next thread about how to target the changes, and later threads on other scales like melodic minor and diminished, and altering the harmony.

The problem is that I needed to bring everyone up to the same page. Now, granted, this is a super early page in the book, but at least we have a springboard now.

@Sam & Hayden = Yeah, I'm at school now but, I'll grab some at lunch!

@Hayden = Yep, thats a bII maj7. It takes a Lydian Scale. I'll elaborate more in a bit.

@Bikewer = I plan on doing a solo guitar day after we get the basics of Jazz Harmony down! Stay tuned!
"There are two styles of music. Good music and bad music." -Duke Ellington

"If you really think about it, the guitar is a pointless instrument." - Robert Fripp
#9
Hmm, good post.


II-V's and You

Many chord progressions have what is called a II-V. Literally, this is a II chord moving to a V chord, like so:

Dm7-G7 -> II-V in Cmajor

Cool right? I know. But Figuratively, these could also potentially be II-Vs:

F-G, Dm7b5-G, Dm7-Db7, etc. ->all II-V's in C major!!! Why? Patience...

There are many more, and some special cases as well, my point is it is not as rigid as you think.

These are not actually all II-V's. What they are is predominant and dominant function chords. F-G is a IV - V, but IV and II share the same function, predominant. That's why Jet calls them both II.

I still wouldn't call every predominant-dominant pair II-V or maybe I'm just not jazz enough xD

Quote by Jet Penguin

1. A Maj7 Chord: A Major (Ionian) Scale IF the chord is the I chord.

Now hang on: People are going to claim that this is wrong and that you should use a Lydian scale, as the #4 eliminates the avoid note. This is a valid strategy, but so is this one: The natural 4, the "avoid note" is ACTUALLY an unresolved 4-3 suspension. Counterpoint, suckers. That 4 wants to go down to 3 so hard, and if you can resolve it nicely, you can add a jet engine's worth of propulsion to your lines.

OR: You can just use Lydian, in fact, lets go to the next one:

This is a good point. If you always play Lydian, you're gonna miss out on all those suspensions. And I don't know about you, but I don't always want that "floaty" Lydian feel for my playing.
Last edited by Elintasokas at Oct 6, 2014,
#10
Quote by Elintasokas
Hmm, good post.


These are not actually all II-V's. What they are is predominant and dominant function chords. F-G is a IV - V, but IV and II share the same function, predominant. That's why Jet calls them both II.

I still wouldn't call every predominant-dominant pair II-V or maybe I'm just not jazz enough xD


nah they are actually all called ii-Vs jazz vocab is simple that way
check out Blues For Alice, uses consecutive ii-Vs making the I a new ii
also Ornithology / How High The Moon uses ii-Vs to change through different keys


Quote by Jet Penguin

1. A Maj7 Chord: A Major (Ionian) Scale IF the chord is the I chord.

Now hang on: People are going to claim that this is wrong and that you should use a Lydian scale, as the #4 eliminates the avoid note.


The lydian scale on chord I is the wrong sound anyway, but lydian for every other major chord is hip. major scales with passing steps was good enough for the founders of bebop anyway
#11
Jet,

I commend you for a very clean and concise first post. I read through how you used modal names, and your rationales for the chords scale tones. And especially your treatment of the 4/11 over the I. You did a slam dunk in identifying the "seeming" conflicts between CST and the victors of each argument. I read though your words very carefully for accuracy, because in the years I've been here, I've never seen anyone that could yet explain it correctly without screwing up and mixing contexts.

I can't find anything that's wrong with your information, so kudos to you. That is commendable.

So, I'll have to make my points regarding another users comments, that of function.

In Jazz, functionally, we are thinking ii V...not predominants. --- That's classical music theory trying to bump their way drunkingly into the party. Jazzers do not think in that way in that context. There's Coltrane subs, Byrd subs, and Tritone subs. There's reharmonizations...but the thing we are doing most of the time is smashing those ii V's.

m7b5 VAlt7 i, (X7sus and X7#5 are two of my faves) are as you said ii V i in minor keys (Think Blue Bossa...one of my all time favorites). In jazz it's really about taking the basics from there and coloring them up. And thinking in these terms, with a few cool tricks, is how we tend to do it.

Best,

Sean
Last edited by Sean0913 at Oct 6, 2014,
#12
Oh, right. Okay then. I'm just not used to the Jazz way of doing things.

Quote by UnmagicMushroom

The lydian scale on chord I is the wrong sound anyway, but lydian for every other major chord is hip. major scales with passing steps was good enough for the founders of bebop anyway

It's not actually wrong. It's just as wrong as playing Dorian on a minor tonic aka. not wrong :P It is........I'm not sure if I should say this: MODAL.

BTW, Jet, you have a great way of explaining things. It's not the usual boring textbook way.
Last edited by Elintasokas at Oct 6, 2014,
#13
If you want to hear Parker using the 4th over a I chord here's a very characteristic example of how he approached it.

DISCLAIMER: I know this is a blues so the supposed clash between the Maj7 and the 4th doesn't really apply, but he uses this lick all the time over Maj7 chords as well. This is just the first example that sprung to mind. I'll look through my transcriptions later and see if I can post better examples.



It's the first lick he plays in the solo.

Once you are aware of this lick you will hear it all the time.

(5 3, 454, 3) 8th 8th, triplet, 8th
Last edited by Duaneclapdrix at Oct 6, 2014,
#14
@Elintasokas: While they are not technically II-V's, they functionally behave as such. Part of the energy of improvised jazz is due to everyone interpreting the harmony differently and the melodic lines that result. When I see a "modified" II-V in C, like

Fmaj7 - Db7

I can improvise over that as if it were Dm7 - G7! So in that sense it, is a II-V! Sean's post is dead-on.

@Sean: Thanks for the commendation, I appreciate it! Like I said, once we get everyone up to speed, we are gonna dive right into altered harmony and substitution; I'm glad you are as pumped as I am!

@MagicMushroom: Lydian can be a very effective sound over a I chord, there isn't really a "wrong" sound, only sounds that are less "vanilla" than others. The "safe" route is to use Ionian, but non-diatonic Major 7s need Lydian, as there is no 4-3 suspension to be resolved.

I'm gonna grab more examples and post them here soon.
"There are two styles of music. Good music and bad music." -Duke Ellington

"If you really think about it, the guitar is a pointless instrument." - Robert Fripp
#15
Quote by Jet Penguin
@Elintasokas: While they are not technically II-V's, they functionally behave as such. Part of the energy of improvised jazz is due to everyone interpreting the harmony differently and the melodic lines that result. When I see a "modified" II-V in C, like

Fmaj7 - Db7

I can improvise over that as if it were Dm7 - G7! So in that sense it, is a II-V! Sean's post is dead-on.

.


Thought you weren't going to mention (tritone) substitution yet! :-)

There's a shed load of substitutions, some more "correct", others "less" (more out there), but that's the whole joy of this stuff.
#16
Here's a great tune that answers Crazy Sam's question with a CLASSIC non diatonic major 7 chord.



A quick analysis (We are in the key of C):

1. Cmaj7: C major. Easy

2. The next two bars are a II-V in Eb. The "safe" sound is an Eb Major scale. However:

See how the Bb7 resolves up a whole step to C? This is a special kind of II-V called a "Backdoor II-V."

Although Eb Major is the "safe yet bland" sound, this progression actually would use Bb Lydian Dominant, or F Melodic Minor. More on this later...

3. C Maj7: Back to C major.

4. A II-V in the key of Ab: No trickery here, Ab Major.

5. Abmaj7: Ab Ionian: We have changed keys.

6. Another key change! A quick II-V in G major! This one doesn't resolve though!

7. As soon as the Dm7 starts, we are back in C major, heading toward the ending.

The Turnaround

A turnaround is a semi-rapid chord sequence used to keep the motion of the tune going, and set up another "lap" around the tune. This turnaround is:

Cmaj7-Ebmaj7-Abmaj7-Dbmaj7. Intense. Check these roman numerals.

Imaj7 - bIIImaj7 - bVImaj7 -bIImaj7! these are actually the three most often seen non-diatonic Lydian chords!

So, because we are in C major, the first chord would take Ionian, and the other 3 would use Eb, Ab, and Db Lydian, respectively.

This turnaround progression is a very sophisticated version of this:

C - A7 - Dm7 - G7. Each of those Maj7s has been substituted in for one of these chords.
"There are two styles of music. Good music and bad music." -Duke Ellington

"If you really think about it, the guitar is a pointless instrument." - Robert Fripp
Last edited by Jet Penguin at Oct 6, 2014,
#17
You know now, that you brought it up JP, you're going to HAVE to explain the backdoor V - I, right?n (bVII I)

And you don't see the Eb Ab as simply a V I up a minor 3rd from C? That's how I look at it. And then the bII...simply creative reharmonization

See what you did?

Best,

Sean
Last edited by Sean0913 at Oct 6, 2014,
#19
I know Sean, I'm too nice to you guys.

I stuck it in the Q&A post.

Lady Bird is a great tune to work on. You get great practice on a backdoor dominants, turnarounds AND you go through 3 keys all while avoiding a blindingly fast tempo.

If you want to crank up the speed, there's a Miles tune called Half Nelson that is the same changes at 2x the speed.
"There are two styles of music. Good music and bad music." -Duke Ellington

"If you really think about it, the guitar is a pointless instrument." - Robert Fripp
Last edited by Jet Penguin at Oct 6, 2014,
#20
Quote by Jet Penguin
I know Sean, I'm too nice to you guys.

I stuck it in the Q&A post.

Lady Bird is a great tune to work on. You get great practice on a backdoor dominants, turnarounds AND you go through 3 keys all while avoiding a blindingly fast tempo.

If you want to crank up the speed, there's a Miles tune called Half Nelson that is the same changes at 2x the speed.



Boom headshot! You aced that explanation!

You may have the gift of being able to become a teacher.

Being able to break it down, is not something everyone can do, and retain the majority of people following. I already know the answers, but I'm egging you on, and you're nailing them. It's one thing to KNOW them, it's another altogether to be able to explain it correctly, and concisely on a very simple level. That's what I tried to do with Giant Steps, so I can appreciate when I see you doing it.

I like the layout of this, and how you're adding it to the QA post. I didn't follow the format at first but its effective.


But to elaborate on the smoothing.

and put it into the bVII chord:

Fm7 - Bb7(#11) - C

Bb7#11 is Lydian Dominant all the way. That #11 is E - the major 3rd of C.

Ab is the b7

So comparing the notes side by side, you have:

F Ab C and Eb
Bb D F Ab and E
C E G B

See how the voices move by smaller, 1/2 step increments, or are already "there"? This is an example of smooth voice leading.

Best,

Sean
Last edited by Sean0913 at Oct 6, 2014,
#21
Sean's the man. He gets it.

A lot of this information starts to click when you see that everything is geared towards effective voice leading. Counterpoint is not just some lofty classical goal.

Unfortunately Sean, I'm afraid I have beaten you to it. Teaching is what I do for living! I'm in school now finishing up that grad stuff so I can do it at a collegiate level with the big dogs.

Then I can gig all I want without having to worry about starving!
"There are two styles of music. Good music and bad music." -Duke Ellington

"If you really think about it, the guitar is a pointless instrument." - Robert Fripp
#22
Quote by Jet Penguin
When I see a "modified" II-V in C, like

Fmaj7 - Db7

I can improvise over that as if it were Dm7 - G7! So in that sense it, is a II-V! Sean's post is dead-on.

Those are substitutions, so yeah.

Have I mentioned that I love Jazz substitutions? Now I have.
#23
Sam, then you are gonna have a blast when we go further in depth and start using other scales and colors, and your mid is gonna be blown when I do one on teaching everyone every chord ever in one thread.

Also, let me know if you want another example of non-diatonic Major7s.
"There are two styles of music. Good music and bad music." -Duke Ellington

"If you really think about it, the guitar is a pointless instrument." - Robert Fripp
#24
Quote by Jet Penguin

A lot of this information starts to click when you see that everything is geared towards effective voice leading. Counterpoint is not just some lofty classical goal.

Yeah, indeed. :P It's applicable to everything.

I think counterpoint is the most interesting thing in music. The more voices you add the better (and harder) it gets. I'm currently writing a piece that has 6 voices in one part. :P
#25
Yeah man, I was taught improv contrapuntally, so I'm always thinking about having a strong melodic line.

Your ears don't actually hear chords as vertical units, they pick out the individual melodic lines. Its just how your brain works aurally.
"There are two styles of music. Good music and bad music." -Duke Ellington

"If you really think about it, the guitar is a pointless instrument." - Robert Fripp
#26
Quote by Jet Penguin
Yeah man, I was taught improv contrapuntally, so I'm always thinking about having a strong melodic line.

Your ears don't actually hear chords as vertical units, they pick out the individual melodic lines. Its just how your brain works aurally.

Yep, that's true. Music sounds way more sophisticated with proper voice leading.

Now, I don't think it's actually THAT big of a deal if you have a parallel/hidden fifth or octave here and there in an accompaniment pattern (homophonic texture). You get pretty far by just playing the nearest inversion of every chord.

Where it really matters is when you have multiple melodies and you need to keep them all independent.

But you're right. Even if you're just comping with chords, it's still a huge difference when the chord tones resolve like they should and don't just jump around.
Last edited by Elintasokas at Oct 6, 2014,
#27
Well even when comping a single chord, you want to play a melodic line. Strumming the same Cmaj7 voicing is a pretty boring melody. E E E E E E E E E E E

Sometimes I ditch the chords for a bar or two and play counter-melodies and do a little duet with the soloist.

And yes, I've gotten more than a fair share of dirty looks from sax players.
"There are two styles of music. Good music and bad music." -Duke Ellington

"If you really think about it, the guitar is a pointless instrument." - Robert Fripp
#28
Quote by Jet Penguin
Well even when comping a single chord, you want to play a melodic line. Strumming the same Cmaj7 voicing is a pretty boring melody. E E E E E E E E E E E

Sometimes I ditch the chords for a bar or two and play counter-melodies and do a little duet with the soloist.

And yes, I've gotten more than a fair share of dirty looks from sax players.

Lol, yeah that's actually a good point. I tend to think of comping like just playing boring static chords all the time, which it doesn't have to be.

Those sax players should be happy for your effort, unless you entirely steal the spotlight
Last edited by Elintasokas at Oct 6, 2014,
#29
As long as I can resist the urge to turn the Big Muff on, I'm usually okay.

Anyway, the next JTJ will be up either later in the week/this weekend. Hopefully we can keep cruising right along. But until then, let's keep talking CST. Like I said, if people have rock examples, bring those in too. This analysis train has no brakes.
"There are two styles of music. Good music and bad music." -Duke Ellington

"If you really think about it, the guitar is a pointless instrument." - Robert Fripp
#30
Quote by Jet Penguin
Well even when comping a single chord, you want to play a melodic line. Strumming the same Cmaj7 voicing is a pretty boring melody. E E E E E E E E E E E

Sometimes I ditch the chords for a bar or two and play counter-melodies and do a little duet with the soloist.

And yes, I've gotten more than a fair share of dirty looks from sax players.


Pfft! Typical Jazzer where the minimum chord is a 7th



Best,

Sean
#32
Please. Wait till the JTJ day where I hilariously claim all the previous information is irrelevant and we should all be playing nothing but triads. Different triads than the rest of the band, but triads all the same.
"There are two styles of music. Good music and bad music." -Duke Ellington

"If you really think about it, the guitar is a pointless instrument." - Robert Fripp
#34
"CURSES! THEY'RE ON TO ME!"

(Gets in car, peels out, drives to airport, gets in helicopter and flies away)"



Also, I actually think the minimum should be bumped up to 9th chords.
"There are two styles of music. Good music and bad music." -Duke Ellington

"If you really think about it, the guitar is a pointless instrument." - Robert Fripp
Last edited by Jet Penguin at Oct 6, 2014,
#35
thread of the year. ive been waiting for something like that all this time!!

This is all the fundamentals of jazz harmony in a few paragraphs. Dunno if you plan in doing it, but a modal jazz harmony analysis thread would be nice too (a bit tougher to explain imo, personally I struggle with analysis of more modern jazz tune like Chick Corea compositions or contemporary/fusion stuff)
ive been at the school all day and i feel tired but i just want to add a little nuggets of information just for fun
Quote by Jet Penguin

What Happens In a Minor Key?

Easy. A minor key II-V looks like this:

Dm7b5 - G7 - Cm

Just as the major key II-V uses C major all the way through, the minor key II-V uses C Harmonic Minor all the way through. That's right, kids. Harmonic Minor.

But you like Aeolian(natural minor)? You can use it, AFTER the V chord, when you have stopped moving harmonically. We are trying to follow the chords, not skate over them.

Nice approach
Personally i would think of the relative minor, for example in
Dm7b5 - G7 - Cm I would just think of notes from Eb major but with a very important note to target, the third of G7 which B (there is no G7 in Eb tonality). So that makes Eb F G Ab B C
Basically the approaches are the same in practice, but I like to relate stuff to the major scale fingerings

Quote by Jet Penguin

Exceptions?

Yes. There are not many. Here's what you may run into. We will get more into these in a later JTJ, but here is the basic chord scale survival guide.

1. A seemingly random, possibly non-diatonic Major 7 chord: Lydian.

2. A seemingly random, possibly non-diatonic Dominant Chord: Lydian Dominant. Looks like -> (1 2 3 #4 5 6 b7), it's a mode of MM. more on this later. If that scale is beyond your capacity, use Mixolydian.

3. A minor 7 chord that is not part of a II-V: Is it the root? Aeolian. If not? Dorian, UNLESS it is a III chord. III is a substitute for I, just use the appropriate major scale.

4. A minor7b5 chord that is not part of a II-V: Use a Locrian scale for now, that is beyond the scope of this thread. (We'll get there soon enough)

5. A diminished 7 chord: This one's tough. Find what root the chord points to, and use Harmonic Minor off of that root. For now anyway

6. A minor IV chord: Dorian (more on this later)

7. A minor/maj7 chord : Melodic Minor (more on this later)


IV min: melodic minor
IV minMaj: melodic minor
bVII7: Lydian b7
bVImaj7 #5: Lydian #5

dim7: T 1/2T scale

Secondary dominant going to a min chord a fourth up or a fifth down: altered, melodic minor or harmonic minor of the chord you are going to (ex. A7 to D min 7 in this case V/IImin7 to IImin7 : D altered, MM or HM)

Secondary dominant going to a maj, dominant or min7b5 or dim chord a fourth up or a fifth down: mixolydian
ex: B7 E7 A7 D7

Secondary dominant or Sub-dominant chord going an half step to maj7, min7, 7, min7b5, dim7: Lydian b7

Little scale trick:
Melodic minor is almost the same as the major scale, just flat the the third note of your major scale
Harmonic minor is the same as the relative major scale but sharp the 7th

The major scale, MM, HM, and their modes make 99% of the most used scales in jazz (+ a few synthetic scales like whole tone)
Last edited by SuperKid at Oct 6, 2014,
#36
Super Kid, you've totally got these concepts down. Nice work. And don't worry I haven't forgotten all those other chordal colors and scales.

I just wanted to provide everyone with the ultra traditional vanilla sounds as a baseline first. I plan on doing an individual thread for each "special scale," which will cover all the more advanced applications you listed.


You can look forward to a melodic minor day and a WH day soon!

The reason I tend to say Harmonic Minor all the way through the II-V is because many players will ignore the II to give themselves more room to target the dominant. But your strategy of Aeolian whilst targeting the leading tone is totally good and valid.

And yes. Somewhere down the line, I will be talking modes. But not yet. If I'm gonna end this flame war, I have to go all out and snuff out the fire once and for all.
"There are two styles of music. Good music and bad music." -Duke Ellington

"If you really think about it, the guitar is a pointless instrument." - Robert Fripp
Last edited by Jet Penguin at Oct 7, 2014,