#1
The biggest problem with the modes is the inordinate amount of explanation that goes into where they derive from, and the comparatively miniscule advice on how to write using a mode.

Very few people question where the major scale comes from ... they just accept it, and learn how to use it.

For me, this should the same for the modes ... in fact, knowing its origin can be damaging to the poor guy trying to write a piece, luring him into creating a piece of music that sounds like the parent scale.

The fact that D Dorian has the same notes as C Major is completely irrelevant to me (but I don't ever think in terms of note names ... when seen as a scale formula, the differences are clearer).

Folk should learn the appropriate chord progressions that make the music sound like it is based on that mode and its tonality. There's plenty of cliched progressions out there to pick up one. Get that right, learn the mode's tone tendencies, and the soloing and composing becomes easier.

cheers, Jerry (hard hat in place :-) )
Last edited by jerrykramskoy at Oct 12, 2014,
#2
My 2 cents below vvv

...modes and scales are still useless.


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#3
I never understood modes as being difficult at all because I learned from books in the first place. So I saw words like, note, scale, mode, chord....none of them stood out as being "hard" because I didnt know what ANY of them meant and I couldnt play a lick to start with.

The only thing hard is mindreading the guy you are talking to when u say "mode" and saying it in a way he can understand.

And yeah I agree, I never remember a discussion of medieval music history coming into play when I saw a major scale in a book. It was just "put your fingers here"

Some of the stickies show decent examples of deriving the diatonic chords from modes and soloing using the mode etc....but alas, thats not enough.

But yeah, I must agree, if im not mistaken, I haven't seen anyone who has vehemently argued against improper usage of the word actually posting one of their own examples of what would properly constitute a mode

Its possible that God created modes just to identify argumentative people lol (or maybe thats why He created music in general?)
#4
Biggest problem with modes is that people who don't play or listen to modal music keep posting "modes debunked" or "modes made simple" on MT
#5
Quote by bassalloverthe
Biggest problem with modes is that people who don't play or listen to modal music keep posting "modes debunked" or "modes made simple" on MT


or, people who dont play modes, dont like modes, tell others who actually use modes, that they are doing it wrong

Its like trying to learn about Chevys from a hardcore Ford guy
#6
Quote by JohnProphet
or, people who dont play modes, dont like modes, tell others who actually use modes, that they are doing it wrong

Its like trying to learn about Chevys from a hardcore Ford guy


If your implying I don't do modes, then you can take your post somewhere else. I've been singing chant for the catholic church since I was 12
#7
Quote by bassalloverthe
If your implying I don't do modes, then you can take your post somewhere else. I've been singing chant for the catholic church since I was 12


not referring to you at all my friend
#8
Quote by JohnProphet
not referring to you at all my friend


Okay , sorry for being an absolute **** about it
#9
Quote by bassalloverthe
Okay , sorry for being an absolute **** about it


no problem at all brother. very easy misunderstanding.
#10
What the hell is modal music anyway? If I accidentally use a V - I is my music not modal anymore? Just drone on one chord and use the notes in one mode?

Is playing I - bVII I - bVII I - bVII I - bVII I - bVII - I and mixolydian scale considered modal?

Does modal mean working with purely intervals without even caring (or knowing) about chord functions?

Does modal just mean using notes within a certain mode? For example Dorian?

It seems everyone has a different definition for "Modal" on these forums. lmao
Last edited by Elintasokas at Oct 12, 2014,
#11
^ Yeah...

But one thing that everybody can agree with is that modal scales are still used a lot in contemporary popular music, I would say dorian and mixolydian being the most common ones.

For example dorian:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vvvX5QM4z3Y

Mixolydian:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1VQ_3sBZEm0

I'm not calling either of the songs modal. They are just mostly using notes from dorian and mixolydian scales.
Quote by AlanHB
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Last edited by MaggaraMarine at Oct 12, 2014,
#12
Biggest problem with modes is that people who don't play or listen to modal music keep posting "modes debunked" or "modes made simple" on MT


I tried to change my post name from "modes made simple" to "An approach for modes" so as not to offend the modal prefects on this forum... but I couldn't. I was able to change a few of my statements on modes in the article to reflect some of their viewpoints... so I think it's a little better now.

But yeah, I must agree, if im not mistaken, I haven't seen anyone who has vehemently argued against improper usage of the word actually posting one of their own examples of what would properly constitute a mode


I'm waiting for that too. There was an example of some Catholic Chanting as modal via a youtube video. I would never attempt to translate that to my guitar. We need a good example, with some chord/scale theory behind it to clearly explain how these guys view modes used in their proper form.
#14
Quote by Sean0913
I think bass and John Prophet should collaborate upon a modal lesson together and enlighten the ignorant masses out here.

I'll take a chair ...



Best,

Sean


Or how about you read all those treatises, books, doctoral theses, and scores I posted 2 months ago when we went over this once already. Thats where I learned from, so if you have an issue, you can take it up with the author



http://www.globalchant.org/index.php

Start here

http://lphrc.org/Chant/

Heres how to read it, since you probably cant

When your done, you can give me a blow job for using google for you. And then we will move onto the Renaissance.


---------------------------


Taking bets on whether shawn will learn something, or come back with another "witty" response
Last edited by bassalloverthe at Oct 13, 2014,
#15
Quote by bassalloverthe
Or how about you read all those treatises, books, doctoral theses, and scores I posted 2 months ago when we went over this once already.
Nah. You can write that lesson instead. You even had the mods against you. So...come back with that lesson.
#16
Quote by bassalloverthe
Or how about you read all those treatises, books, doctoral theses, and scores I posted 2 months ago when we went over this once already. Thats where I learned from, so if you have an issue, you can take it up with the author



http://www.globalchant.org/index.php

Start here

http://lphrc.org/Chant/

Heres how to read it, since you probably cant

When your done, you can give me a blow job for using google for you. And then we will move onto the Renaissance.


---------------------------


Taking bets on whether shawn will learn something, or come back with another "witty" response


No witty response needed. I'll let you see the results of your help, by none other than the OP:

I'm waiting for that too. There was an example of some Catholic Chanting as modal via a youtube video. I would never attempt to translate that to my guitar. We need a good example, with some chord/scale theory behind it to clearly explain how these guys view modes used in their proper form.

That's what made me suggest a "lesson". If you need a "Template" use JetPenguin, and establish your points, and maybe you'll be a lot more persuasive in your enlightening of the masses. I'll even have a look.

On a more serious note, I don't see where you have to get vulgar, just because you don't like what I say. It just shows lack of class and the ability to maintain one's self. Get some air, and stay on point. We aren't mortal enemies, really...

Best,

Sean
Last edited by Sean0913 at Oct 13, 2014,
#17
When I was a member of Tom Hess (for mechanical technique issues after major injury to my hand/arm) I was challenged to write a progression based on jazz minor 3 (Lydian augmented) ... not exactly something I use commonly. Problematic because of the lack of a perfect 5th in the scale. But it was fun ... here's the example attached ( wasn't bothered about rhythym for this).
Attachments:
JM3 example.gp5
#18
Ahh cool I love all the passive agressiveness being thrown around here. Makes me feel all warm and stuff.

I think the main issues surrounding modes on UG are:

- Ignorance of the flexibility of keys
- Too much focus on the shapes rather than the sounds
- Emphasis on them as the holy grail of guitar
- Assumption that if something is played fast with distortion, it is modal
And no, Guitar Hero will not help. Even on expert. Really.
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#19
Quote by crazysam23_Atax
Nah. You can write that lesson instead. You even had the mods against you. So...come back with that lesson.


Nah, Im not going to. Just because your a lazy ass doesnt mean Im going to compress 1000 years of music into one OP. It would be a disservice to everyone on MT and the music. Instead, I will reference you to music and literature I found inspiring. If you get something out of the sources I share, great for you. If not, thats fine because it means theres one less person that can do what I do and Im fine with that.

Also, the texts I post are going to be more in depth and informative than I could ever be

I think you are afraid of looking at them, because god forbid, MT actually figure out what modes are and then we cant have these wonderful circle jerk discussions anymore

Quote by shawn
I would never attempt to translate that to my guitar.


Not. My. Problem. Its a thread about modes, not guitar.

Maybe instead of being a debbie downer, you would just check out some of the stuff I posted, and then I would get to the modal music with the lutes in it.

Also...sorry, Im just having a really hard time understanding why this is difficult to apply to guitar. I mean, piano plays chords. Guitars play chords. Hell, in jazz music, half the time you give the piano player and the guitarist the same part. Whats going on here shawn? No, but serious, how does it not apply to guitar?

^Sorry alan, I feel like my presence combined with shawn has ruined this thread. In all honestly, I was just trying to show people some music which is without a doubt modal, so that we could at least avoid the question of whether or not the material in question is modal.

Seems like since crazyshawn cant dispute the tonal characteristics of the music I posted, they are attacking the way I submitted it to the forum
Last edited by bassalloverthe at Oct 13, 2014,
#20
Quote by bassalloverthe
Nah, Im not going to. Just because your a lazy ass doesnt mean Im going to compress 1000 years of music into one OP. It would be a disservice to everyone on MT and the music. Instead, I will reference you to music and literature I found inspiring. If you get something out of the sources I share, great for you. If not, thats fine because it means theres one less person that can do what I do and Im fine with that.

Also, the texts I post are going to be more in depth and informative than I could ever be

I think you are afraid of looking at them, because god forbid, MT actually figure out what modes are and then we cant have these wonderful circle jerk discussions anymore

Not. My. Problem. Its a thread about modes, not guitar.

Maybe instead of being a debbie downer, you would just check out some of the stuff I posted, and then I would get to the modal music with the lutes in it.

Also...sorry, Im just having a really hard time understanding why this is difficult to apply to guitar. I mean, piano plays chords. Guitars play chords. Hell, in jazz music, half the time you give the piano player and the guitarist the same part. Whats going on here shawn? No, but serious, how does it not apply to guitar?

^Sorry alan, I feel like my presence combined with shawn has ruined this thread. In all honestly, I was just trying to show people some music which is without a doubt modal, so that we could at least avoid the question of whether or not the material in question is modal.

Seems like since crazyshawn cant dispute the tonal characteristics of the music I posted, they are attacking the way I submitted it to the forum


I can see that you missed everything.

I didn't write it, your TS did.

Take it up with him as to why it's not.your.problem. Context is everything. I'm not the one making the objection. I'm passing along the context. I'm not the one here asking the questions. I teach. I'm here helping, not asking for help.

So, even if you say this music is modal, you don't help anyone, that wants to understand it, by leaving out the "why" its modal, which reduces your part in this, to "hey here's what I know and you don't, aren't I a smart one".

But you're right. Maybe 1-1000 will look at your "inspiring works" and get what you mean by it. Mission accomplished.

@Alan, you're right. Music has progressed to where the word Mode and Modal have been pushed out to mean a lot of things. I sometimes have to hold my tongue and resist typing something like "Enjoy playing your minor scale" when I read someone's "illuminative" approach to why they have "unlocked" the Modes. It's poignant and sad, when I see someone think they've expanded their playing, and they are just playing Minor or Major.

One of my past students when he first came to me, was all excited how, when he played in the key of Am, "G Mixo" fit perfectly. Like this was a real discovery to him. I took a deep breath and did not hit my head upon the nearest hard surface. I told myself, "there's time...there's still time." Happily I straightened him out, and he's an amazing, world class player. I'll let you judge:

http://www.alltoohuman.net/index2.htm

But really, trying to contribute to discussions, like this Modes one, is like herding cats at times.

Best,

Sean
Last edited by Sean0913 at Oct 13, 2014,
#21
Quote by Sean0913
I can see that you missed everything.

I didn't write it, your TS did.

Take it up with him as to why it's not.your.problem. Context is everything. I'm not the one making the objection. I'm passing along the context. I'm not the one here asking the questions. I teach. I'm here helping, not asking for help.

So, even if you say this music is modal, you don't help anyone, that wants to understand it, by leaving out the "why" its modal, which reduces your part in this, to "hey here's what I know and you don't, aren't I a smart one".

But you're right. Maybe 1-1000 will look at your "inspiring works" and get what you mean by it. Mission accomplished.

Best,

Sean


TS didnt ask any questions, so Im not sure what your talking about. No, literally, he didnt even mention the word guitar in his whole post

Okay, since you dont seem to understand why this music is modal, I will do you this favor one time. Go to the chant library, and pick your two favorite pieces. I will explain to you all the characteristics which make them unique from tonal music.

And no, its not about "Im so smart." Its about "these are the resources that led me to my conclusions. I encourage you to look over them and reach your own conclusions."
#22
Gents, please enlighten me. What does "TS" and "OP" stand for?

Is there a thread that provides youtube links to good examples of modal tunes? That would be pretty cool for new players to check out? if not, I'd be happy to kick one off, or contribute to one with some great players I can think off.

cheers, Jerry
#23
Quote by jerrykramskoy
Gents, please enlighten me. What does "TS" and "OP" stand for?

Is there a thread that provides youtube links to good examples of modal tunes? That would be pretty cool for new players to check out? if not, I'd be happy to kick one off, or contribute to one with some great players I can think off.

cheers, Jerry


TS is thread starter. OP is original poster. Most people on UG uses TS, but most of the internet uses OP.

If you started that thread, Id love to contribute. No words of my own, just links to scores and videos
#24
Quote by bassalloverthe
TS didnt ask any questions, so Im not sure what your talking about. No, literally, he didnt even mention the word guitar in his whole post

Okay, since you dont seem to understand why this music is modal, I will do you this favor one time. Go to the chant library, and pick your two favorite pieces. I will explain to you all the characteristics which make them unique from tonal music.

And no, its not about "Im so smart." Its about "these are the resources that led me to my conclusions. I encourage you to look over them and reach your own conclusions."


OK, I see your point there. He may not have been a guitar player. But it seemed to me that he was, given his response to the whole "chant" idea. Which to me, I don't see many people from UG taking that video and chanting.

I do not need convincing that it is modal, but when I teach I do try to make it relevant to the guitar, and it seemed this TS/OP was trying to do, as the backbone for this discussion.

And, I don't think anyone would raise objections if you present and intend your comments to mean "these are the resources that led me to my conclusions. I encourage you to look over them and reach your own conclusions.".

I certainly would find no fault, if that's what you're doing. But, that may not work in serving the TS, if he doesn't know they "why" it's modal. To you, that answer may be secure, but to the TS not so much.

Maybe the TS can take you on your offer by selecting a chant or two!

Best,

Sean
Last edited by Sean0913 at Oct 13, 2014,
#25
Quote by Sean0913
OK, I see your point there.


Hell has officially frozen over.

My point was simply that, whatever I could possibly accomplish in one thread with my own explanations, would simply amount to a table of contents for the real sources which I have drawn from. That OP's will learn more from reading what I read, then me regurgitating. Because that kind of posting is exactly there are 15 threads on modes a day, yet not a single person here can spell the hypodorian mode

To me, the why its modal is obvious. If you compare the music to tonal music, there are so many distinctions immediately. From timbre, to ideas on polyphony, to voice leading, etc. The idea is that I post the information, and then if someone has a specific question about that, they can ask me what I think, with the disclaimer that its my opinion (though my opinion should have weight in this). But if someone says, "Whats a mode," I am going to send them to scores and recordings every time. Because thats the only thing I can show them that cant be debated, or nit picked, or torn apart by peoples egos until its a bowl of pulp in the OPs brain. The mode is simply in the music
Last edited by bassalloverthe at Oct 13, 2014,
#26
Quote by bassalloverthe
Nah, Im not going to. Just because your a lazy ass doesnt mean Im going to compress 1000 years of music into one OP. It would be a disservice to everyone on MT and the music. Instead, I will reference you to music and literature I found inspiring. If you get something out of the sources I share, great for you. If not, thats fine because it means theres one less person that can do what I do and Im fine with that.

Also, the texts I post are going to be more in depth and informative than I could ever be

I think you are afraid of looking at them, because god forbid, MT actually figure out what modes are and then we cant have these wonderful circle jerk discussions anymore



Not. My. Problem. Its a thread about modes, not guitar.

Maybe instead of being a debbie downer, you would just check out some of the stuff I posted, and then I would get to the modal music with the lutes in it.

Also...sorry, Im just having a really hard time understanding why this is difficult to apply to guitar. I mean, piano plays chords. Guitars play chords. Hell, in jazz music, half the time you give the piano player and the guitarist the same part. Whats going on here shawn? No, but serious, how does it not apply to guitar?

^Sorry alan, I feel like my presence combined with shawn has ruined this thread. In all honestly, I was just trying to show people some music which is without a doubt modal, so that we could at least avoid the question of whether or not the material in question is modal.

Seems like since crazyshawn cant dispute the tonal characteristics of the music I posted, they are attacking the way I submitted it to the forum


You are such a little punk. Go ahead and sit behind the protection of your computer screen and talk your shit. Its always the same with people like you. You talk all kinds of trash on these forums, but if you were standing in front of a real person, you'd get your punk ass beat for that little attitude you like to cop online.
#27
BTW bass dude, who gives shit about a doctoral thesis on modal choir chanting. If you brought some crap like that to a guitar class people would be bored right out of their chairs. So shut up about it already.
#28
Quote by LordYeti
BTW bass dude, who gives shit about a doctoral thesis on modal choir chanting. If you brought some crap like that to a guitar class people would be bored right out of their chairs. So shut up about it already.


That's why most musicians think guitarists are mouth breathing ret.ards


damnant quod non intelligunt
Last edited by bassalloverthe at Oct 13, 2014,
#29
Quote by Sean0913
I think bass and John Prophet should collaborate upon a modal lesson together and enlighten the ignorant masses out here.

I'll take a chair ...



Best,

Sean


not too sure about a full blown modal lesson but id like to collab with him for sure on a modal piece using wikiloops as the medium.

Im all about some Gregorian chant.
#30
I cannot iterate enough that classical/concert music and contemporary music use vastly differing modal systems/philosophies.

Contemporary music uses what is more accurately a modal framework, and to compare a modal concert piece and a Miles Davis style vamp is like comparing apples and engines, but giving them the same name.

Hence every argument ever.
"There are two styles of music. Good music and bad music." -Duke Ellington

"If you really think about it, the guitar is a pointless instrument." - Robert Fripp
#31
Quote by bassalloverthe
That's why most musicians think guitarists are mouth breathing ret.ards


damnant quod non intelligunt


Enough with the smallness. Your air of superiority and the need to distinguish "musicians" from "Guitarists" is asinine, juvenile (although to be fair, most juveniles don't have that level of audacity) and ridiculous. I'm not going to call you names, but your behavior is elitist and your words are elitist and it all makes you look terribly terribly tiny. I mean even a middle aged man overcompensating in his red sports car would think you're pathetic.

Stop already with your teacup aristoractic airs. This isn't Harvard, nor Oxford in the 1800's.

You vacillate between that, and flouncing about and stamping like a petulant child resorting to name calling, apparent hatred and vulgarity. Is it really that hard for you to manage yourself? Don't presume to start "helping" people until you learn how to conduct yourself on the most basic of levels. Seriously.

You talk, and it makes sense, initially.

You talk more, and you look like an idiot with no social skills at all and all but discredit anything that preceded it or follows.

Is that the game plan here?

Best,

Sean
Last edited by Sean0913 at Oct 13, 2014,
#32
Quote by Jet Penguin
I cannot iterate enough that classical/concert music and contemporary music use vastly differing modal systems/philosophies.

Contemporary music uses what is more accurately a modal framework, and to compare a modal concert piece and a Miles Davis style vamp is like comparing apples and engines, but giving them the same name.

Hence every argument ever.


Thats my feeling as well, and part of why I try to post scores and music, not opinions.

sean


Im not here to help people, Im here to answer their questions. If you want to fight me, be my guest. I will fight you back. Good luck fighting a score/recording though

Also, Im not saying all guitarists are idiots. Im saying its a trope that guitarists typically lack skill or technical understanding, because guitar is the easiest instrument in our culture to just pick up and start playing even if you have no musical inclination

How do you get a guitarist to shut up? Put sheet music in front of him

Whats my favorite radiohead song? Anyone Can Play Guitar

See, its not just me. Its just a stereotype that lordyeti is perpetuating by saying "No one cares about that old shit man!" Yes, I am the punk, indeed...
Last edited by bassalloverthe at Oct 13, 2014,
#33
See, its not just me. Its just a stereotype that lordyeti is perpetuating


I'm just fine with that stereotype. I'll claim that one all day long. If you put choir chanting sheet music in front of me, I would not understand it or even attempt to care about it. I would rather listen to a broken record of Gwenith Paltrow country songs all day long.

Im not here to help people, Im here to answer their questions. If you want to fight me, be my guest. I will fight you back. Good luck fighting a score/recording though


Such a tool....
#34
Hi guys!

Recently it was raised that I and 20T sometimes close threads before they're finished, because we're bored or disagree with the material in it.

Now lets consider this thread, where things are obviously getting out of hand with a three way argument. Should I (a) give everyone warnings and leave it open or (b) close the thread and let the participants cool off for a while?

The only problem with (b) is that some people might say I'm doing it because I hate modes or something.

Meh don't care. *Closed*
And no, Guitar Hero will not help. Even on expert. Really.
Soundcloud
#35
Quote by bassalloverthe
That's why most musicians think guitarists are mouth breathing ret.ards
There's a reason that word is blocked. While you may consider it an apt insult, such usage denigrates people that are afflicted with mental ******ation and other intellectual challenges.

Quote by Sean0913
I'm not going to call you names, but
Quote by Sean0913
the smallness...Your air of superiority ...asinine, juvenile (...audacity)...ridiculous....elitist ...terribly terribly tiny.... you're pathetic...a petulant child resorting to name calling...you look like an idiot with no social skills at all...


For someone claiming he is not going to call the other guy names it makes one wonder...
Is it really that hard for you to manage yourself? Don't presume to start "helping" people until you learn how to conduct yourself on the most basic of levels. Seriously
Do you ever stop to think about whether what you are saying could be applied to yourself?


You are as bad as each other here and both need to chill the f**k out.


---edit----oh,sorry Alan, you ninja'd me. Good call to close, it's a modes thread anyway.
Si