#1
First why do people make such a big deal out of a guitarist's vibrato? I've heard elitist remarks like "his vibrato is sloppy" and stuff. Why does it matter if someone can vibrato with correct bending? Your average-Joe doesn't know what a vibrato is or cares about it. Besides an imperfect vibrato has microtonal harmonic advantages.

Second what do I do with my triad (E, F, Bf/A#) in a chord progression? It's a little dissonant but sounds great (to me). Could someone give it a name or suggest a way for it to be used in a progression. I'm also curious how to achieve a unique harmony and think this triad could help.

Sorry if I offend anyone with my first question (I didn't mean any harm by it and am not saying bad things about anyone here). I'm not trolling but this was bothering me a little. I also hope everyone has a good day.

There's a sound I'm looking for as well. Basically it's an ancient royal/exotic sound and I need tips for a harmony that evokes that feel. Here's some examples.
"Return The Slab" (King Ramses' Scene from Courage the Cowardly Dog). You may need to listen carefully to hear the character's motif.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r2p4Ml2lja4
"Light Mode" (Car's theme from Jojo's Bizarre Adventure: All Star Battle). Same with below.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qf4fmFnBCEE
"Apocalypse Theme" (X-Men Evolution). This definitely has that ancient, exotic, and kingly feel to it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p_k-LtSDnSY
"I don't know what you're trying to suggest. There's no shame in taking what you need to hold your position!"

Super Buu (DBZ) on assimilation (it could also apply to blues guitar and guitar soloing in general).
Last edited by RonaldPoe at Oct 25, 2014,
#3
By Bf you mean Bb, ie B flat?

E F Bb... I wouldn't call that a triad. It could be a C11 chord (I mean, there's the third, 7th and 11th). But without context I can't tell. E F Bb... That would be root, b9 and b5/#11 - doesn't really make that much sense. F Bb E... That would be root, 4th/11th and maj7 - it could be Fmaj7sus4. Bb E F... That would be root, b5/#11 and 5th - doesn't really make sense (in #11 chords you usually want to omit the fifth and in b5 chord the fifth is altered so there is no "natural" fifth).

So the chord could be C11 or Fmaj7sus4. Depends on what the other instruments play and what comes before/after it.

And about the vibrato thing... Well, many beginners don't have a control over their vibrato and it just makes them sound bad. Vibrato should add something to the sound, not take away from it. Bad vibrato technique is pretty much the same as bending out of tune (I mean, vibrato is just repeated bends and releases) and I think usually they go hand in hand. If you are not good at bends, it is pretty likely that your vibrato doesn't sound good either.

Vibrato is just one part of the tone. But yeah, good technique makes you sound better, no matter how fast or slow you play. This is what people refer to as the tone in your fingers. A beginner can't make a $10000 rig sound good. He just doesn't have a good enough technique to make the guitar "sing". And a great guitarist can make pretty much any rig sound pretty good. Because when they have a good enough technique, you just kind of forget about the amp's/guitar's tone and focus on listening to the awesome player. But it is more than that. It's the same with any instrument. It doesn't matter what you play. A good player will always sound better than a crappy player, no matter how simple stuff they play.
Quote by AlanHB
Just remember that there are no boring scales, just boring players.

Gear

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#4
Quote by crazysam23_Atax
Vibrato should be controlled, just like any other act of a musician's playing.


Unless you want it to sound uncontrolled.

Instrumentation goes a long way in getting exotic sounds. However, most exotic stuff is based off Phrygian Dominant type stuff
#5
MM, you make some good points. I understand that a professional player sounds much better than an amateur (this caused me lots of frustration for like 3 years). I fully believe in the "tone is in the hands" theory and practice more than you'd think. However why is "bending out of tune" such a big idea either. I mean microtonal bends sound great to my ears and add to the harmony (as I said). I usually go for a subtle vibrato myself as it accentuates the sustained notes, is easier, and helps finish phrases.

I'm still curious about the ancient Egyptian sound though. I think it's kinda interesting and the harmonies would be unique and exciting. What do you think my links have in common. I also don't like when people tell me "use your ears", "learn the song", ect. I don't have the best ears and I suck at analyzing what I learn.

Finally I think I should just name the chord something silly. I like the "Ice Triad" because I call the version where the treble plays an F Minor chord, the "Yeti Chord".
"I don't know what you're trying to suggest. There's no shame in taking what you need to hold your position!"

Super Buu (DBZ) on assimilation (it could also apply to blues guitar and guitar soloing in general).
#6
There's a bit of a difference between someone making microtonal bends for effect and someone who can't hear, or isn't able to play, in tune.

Which chord those notes form can depend on the situation. Try putting the E as the highest note and bouncing it back and forth up to F and back down to E. Could be fun
Last edited by Vlasco at Oct 25, 2014,
#7
Vibrato is it's own art. There's many different kinds of vibrato and knowing them all is good

Your chord is often reffered to as 016 in set theory, there's not real name for it, tho it vague sits within a Maj7#11 chord

Try playing it F Bb E and then resolving down to Bb maj
#9
Nobody knows shit about anything, but can tell what they like or don't like from the sum of the parts. Vibrato is one of those things. Details matter. The big picture is the sum of details.

ex: ask around what a linear phase EQ is. People in production will know. People in the street won't. People in the street would have trouble hearing the difference between that and a paragraphic EQ. But that doesn't mean they aren't tools you should learn to use properly. People will hear the music, think it sounds great and think it's easy. But it's not, because there are lots of details.

vibrato should be easy though. Should come naturally, and should not be forced. The timing and everything should be "right" and fit the mood. That's what music is. Control of sound. All of it. From rests to slides, nuances in volume, mutes, different timbre you can get from different techniques, attacks etc... vibrato is a part of that. It's not just playing the right notes a book told you to play.

Quote by crazysam23_Atax
Vibrato should be controlled, just like any other act of a musician's playing.


Exactly.
Last edited by fingrpikingood at Oct 25, 2014,
#10
A good vibrato is great. It can really bring a piece of music to life. Sometimes you don't even notice it but when you hear the same piece without it you do notice it's absence. I've never really thought much about the technique of vibrato, it was always something that was very natural and instinctive for me.

The chord you mention is not a triad. It's a chord of some kind... E F Bb. E to Bb gives us a tritone. This tritone could resolve in all sorts of ways. This tone cluster could have a ton of destinations.

The most common resolution of the tritone is each voice moving a half step away in the opposite direction, either inwards to a major third (in this case the E moving up to F and the Bb moving down to A as part of either an F major triad or a Dm triad.

Or you could move each voice outward by a half step to create a minor sixth (inverted major third) the E would go down to D# and the Bb(call it A# would go up to B. These tones are common to the basic B major and G#m triads.

So any of those triads would work as a destination (F major, D minor, B major, G# minor).

Or you could move the E down a whole step to D to give you a Bb major triad in first inversion.

The tone cluster you have (E F Bb) if you consider it off the lowest note is a minor second (E to F) and a tritone (E to Bb). These are the two most dissonant intervals in the western scale.

Dissonance is a delicate thing. It can sound absolutely exquisite, or excessively abhorrent depending on how it is handled. In the right context it adds depth and interest to a piece of music that can take it from "pretty" to captivating. If it is overdone or not placed in the right context then dissonance can just sound like a muddy mess that no one wants to listen to.

Taste is obviously the determining factor which makes it subjective. But I would warn against using that subjective nature as a free license to make something that just sounds like shit and arguing that it is your artistic right to do so.

-It IS your artistic right to do so but it's the critics right to call you on it and the audiences right to run away whenever they hear you coming.

Be wary of using dissonance as a form of pretention. You really have to find the right balance and contrast between consonance and dissonance to bring out the beauty of the dissonance.

Having said that one way to find that balance is to investigate, experiment, and thoroughly explore dissonance. (But don't ignore consonance).
Si
#11
^




Tigers, while I agree with the general point about dissonance, I have to interject that 016 is incredibly common in tonal and consonant music
Last edited by bassalloverthe at Oct 25, 2014,
#12
Vibrato is part of the guitarist's toolbox. Strong vibrato does tend to come with more experienced players, and very weak vibrato really does show up the player as beginner. As for bending out of tune: it's a great effect, but for me works best when bent flat of the target. Bending sharp again can sound amateurish. The biggest offender here is bending slightly sharp the root of a scale or chord.

As for your chord, without more context (what's the bassist playing for example),the chord root is A#/Bb (because of the F->Bb interval being the strongest present, which is a perfect 4th, whose interval root is the top of the 4th (the Bb))

To make the root definitely F, you could introduce C, and reorder, e.g (from 6th to 1st string)

13x351.

With your original voicing, get the bass player to play F and C for similar effect

more E:

02x360 (this is tricky to play. I've just got cramp :-( )

With your original voicing, get the bass player to play E and B for similar effect

cheers, Jerry
Last edited by jerrykramskoy at Oct 26, 2014,
#13
Quote by Vlasco
There's a bit of a difference between someone making microtonal bends for effect and someone who can't hear, or isn't able to play, in tune.

Which chord those notes form can depend on the situation. Try putting the E as the highest note and bouncing it back and forth up to F and back down to E. Could be fun

This. Good technique is about being able to control your instrument. If you want to play microtonal bends and that's the sound you are looking for, yes, of course that's what you should play. But out of tune bends and microtonal bends are a bit different. I wouldn't call a beginner bending out of tune making a microtonal bend. He's just bending out of tune (because he can't control his bends). But if it's done intentionally, you could call it a microtonal bend. And you can't do it intentionally with a bad technique because if you have a bad technique, it means you can't really control your guitar, at least not that well. "Playing microtonal stuff" doesn't really justify a bad technique.

Quote by crazysam23_Atax
That would be an act of control still.

This too. I mean, you are still controlling your bends not to sound in tune. It is of course easier to make your bends sound out of tune than in tune.
Quote by AlanHB
Just remember that there are no boring scales, just boring players.

Gear

Bach Stradivarius 37G
Charvel So Cal
Fender Dimension Bass
Hartke HyDrive 210c
Ibanez BL70
Laney VC30
Tokai TB48
Yamaha FG720S-12
Yamaha P115
Last edited by MaggaraMarine at Oct 26, 2014,
#14
fingrpikingood, your words on vibrato are very touching and true. I also enjoy slides (why don't more people talk about those) for a smooth and enlightened sound. I think vibrato is just another expressive technique and not a way to judge players. Also HoPos (Hammer-on and Pull-Offs) are another equally important technique but nobody complains about that.

You guys can still debate about the Ice Triad but I'll just use it as written. It can add "divine dissonance" to an otherwise stale chord progression. Still curious what those three examples I posted have in common theoretically and how to fake that sound. Oh well
"I don't know what you're trying to suggest. There's no shame in taking what you need to hold your position!"

Super Buu (DBZ) on assimilation (it could also apply to blues guitar and guitar soloing in general).
#15
Quote by RonaldPoe
I think vibrato is just another expressive technique and not a way to judge players.

Whether a player has control or not can pinpoint where they are at with their playing. True masters of the art of musicianship control every aspect of their playing without thinking. Our goal as musicians should be complete control.

If someone lacks complete control, you can hear it. For example, people used to praise Dimebag Darrel's solos back in the day. But whenever he was drunk (which was a lot of the live records), he was sloppy as hell. Yeah, it sounded kind of cool, because he would do wacky stuff. But he wasn't as precise in his playing and that ruined it for me. He didn't have as tight control over his solos.
#16
Quote by RonaldPoe
Second what do I do with my triad (E, F, Bf/A#) in a chord progression? It's a little dissonant but sounds great (to me). Could someone give it a name or suggest a way for it to be used in a progression. I'm also curious how to achieve a unique harmony and think this triad could help.


I hear it as a Bb chord with a Lydian #4 as an appoggiatura (regardless of whether you resolve it or not). Spelled tertially:

F
E - (D)
Bb

When I hear this, I tend to think of things like Joe Satriani's "Flying In A Blue Dream."
#17
Thanks for the explanation of the Ice Triad but what's a appoggiatura? Also how would I get that ancient kingly sound with guitar or theory of it? What harmonic or melodic similarities are present in the three examples?
"I don't know what you're trying to suggest. There's no shame in taking what you need to hold your position!"

Super Buu (DBZ) on assimilation (it could also apply to blues guitar and guitar soloing in general).
#18
An appoggiatura, in this sense, is basically an "unprepared suspension," a non-harmonic tone on the beat, resolving by step.

You're going to have to elaborate on what you mean by "ancient kingly sound."

I don't hear anything that unifies the three examples you posted. The X-Men one is Phrygian dominant.
#19
Forget the "Return the Slab" clip and tell me if there's anything that unifies the "Kars Theme" (Jojo's Bizarre Adventure) and "Apocalypse Theme" (X-Men). I'll try to think of more good examples.
"I don't know what you're trying to suggest. There's no shame in taking what you need to hold your position!"

Super Buu (DBZ) on assimilation (it could also apply to blues guitar and guitar soloing in general).
#20
Quote by RonaldPoe
First why do people make such a big deal out of a guitarist's vibrato? I've heard elitist remarks like "his vibrato is sloppy" and stuff. Why does it matter if someone can vibrato with correct bending?


A person's vibrato is a tell tale sign of their overall ability on the instrument and as a musician. A vibrato that is out of time and/or out of tune indicates, in spite of being ear cringing for the listener, that the musician simply isn't there yet. The same applies to violin players.