#2
It could be something to do with the taper of the volume pot rather than the JCM actually being "louder" overall. Some pots have a logarithmic taper and some have a linear taper.

I suspect the JCM probably puts out more volume on a lower setting but if you were running both amps near the threshold at which the power amp starts to break up you'd find the Valveking is a little louder overall.
I like analogue Solid State amps that make no effort to be "tube-like", and I'm proud of it...

...A little too proud, to be honest.
#3
Wattage means very little when it comes to volume. A 1 watt amp can be very loud, it just doesn't have as much headroom. Hell yes a JCM 800 is louder than a valveking, one is meant for large gigs and the other for practice and small shows.
#4
Quote by Blompcube
It could be something to do with the taper of the volume pot rather than the JCM actually being "louder" overall. Some pots have a logarithmic taper and some have a linear taper.

I suspect the JCM probably puts out more volume on a lower setting but if you were running both amps near the threshold at which the power amp starts to break up you'd find the Valveking is a little louder overall.
I do think this is the case.
Quote by JGM258
Hell yes a JCM 800 is louder than a valveking, one is meant for large gigs and the other for practice and small shows.
Why would you say that?

Also that would be among the last reasons why the volume of an amp might be higher or lower.
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Quote by OliOsbourne
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Clue: amplifiers amplify so don't turn it on if you need quiet.
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#5
^+1 an amp is designed to be an amp that is all


The amp design can also have an affect on the perceived volume. An AC30 will get as loud as most 100watt amps because of the circuit design.
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#6
Quote by JGM258
Hell yes a JCM 800 is louder than a valveking, one is meant for large gigs and the other for practice and small shows.


I'd say that a 100w amp is probably meant for a lot more than practice The fact that it arguably sounds worse than the JCM doesn't mean that it couldn't run with the same volume.
#7
The quality of speakers and output transformers have a lot of impact on volume too
#8
Are you playing them through the same speakers?

And yeah, not all volume controls work the same way. I mean, the volume at 12 o'clock for one amp may be completely different from the volume of another amp, even if they are the same wattage and played through the same speakers. But if you crank both up, I would guess they would be pretty much the same volume.

But it also has to do with the EQ of the amp. Some amps naturally have more mids or highs or bass in them (and again, EQ knobs in amps don't work the same way - they may affect a bit different frequencies, and some amps have lots of mids by nature, others have a more scooped sound. That means in a midrange oriented amp mids at 12 o'clock may sound the same as in a scooped sounding amp mids on full). The more mids you have, the louder it sounds because our ears are most sensitive to mid frequencies (that's because of the pitch of a normal human speaking voice - our ears are most sensitive to those frequencies). And that's also why different speakers sound louder/quieter. And speakers also have a thing called "speaker sensitivity". The more sensitive the speaker is, the louder it will sound. It's a sum of many different factors.
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#9
take your amp and run it through a db meter through a cab with V30's, keep everything in and put in greenbacks.

huge difference with speakers. just to add to all of the other things that affect it.
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#10
Put a patch cable on the VKs fx loop. It will help boost volume a bit. Is the Vk a combo? Is so change those gawd awful "specially voiced" speakers.
#11
Speakers play a HUGE part in volume. But even into the same speakers, unless you dime the amps you don't have a common reference. Diming them will take the pot tapers out of the equation.
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#12
you will also find marshalls "cut through" quite well. it probably has a bit more to it than the valve king.
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#13
Quote by Spambot_2
I do think this is the case.
Why would you say that?

Also that would be among the last reasons why the volume of an amp might be higher or lower.

My bad, I assumed he had a valveking 1x12 combo.
#14
If you're talking head vs head, there's something wrong with your Valveking.
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#15
either way they are loud enough for about anything. likely just different volume pots.

IMO a moot point.
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Quote by andersondb7
alright "king of the guitar forum"


Quote by trashedlostfdup
nope i am "GOD of the guitar forum" i think that fits me better.


Quote by andersondb7
youre just being a jerk man.



****** NEW NEW NEW!
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Resentments and Rambling from a Guitar Junkie
---> http://trashedengineering.blogspot.com/
#16
You also have to keep in mind that both amps have two volumes interacting with each other. The amount of gain will affect the perceived volume of an amp. If you need to have the gain at 9 o'clock on one amp to get the tone you want, there's less volume in the front end so you compensate for that with the master volume. But if you need to have the gain at 3 o'clock on the other, there's a lot of signal going into the power amp so you would turn the master down. No two amps' gain and volume controls interact the same.
#17
100W is always going to be louder than 50W when it comes to guitar amps. If you put them through the same speaker, the 100W WILL sound louder. Of course there are some things that might make a 50W sound louder than it is or a 100W sounder quieter than it is which is mainly how the amp manages different frequencies.

Another thing that may affect the perceived volume is the bias setting. Some amp companies like to stick 4 tubes in amps and bias it cold, but still call it 100W. deleted because Im stoopid!. Some companies like blackstar bias their 100W 6l6 amps colder which makes the wattage even lower. There are also companies that bias their el34 amps hotter.


A real 100W amp, if Im not mistaken, will be 125% louder than a real
50W amp. Not a massive difference, but its noticeable.

The difference you are noticing in your mp is probably the taper as Blompcube mentioned. Not all log/audio taper pots are made with the same curve. Ideally an audio pot would reach 50% volume at 12oc, but not all do. an amp with a linear pot for the volume would reach 50% much earlier. But all these pots will reach the very same 100% volume at max.
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Last edited by bustapr at Oct 27, 2014,
#18
Quote by bustapr
100W is always going to be louder than 50W when it comes to guitar amps. If you put them through the same speaker, the 100W WILL sound louder.
That would be true in theory, but in reality guitar amps' power ratings are made up for the vast majority, and AC30's can get louder than JCM900's.
Quote by bustapr
Of course there are some things that might make a 50W sound louder than it is or a 100W sounder quieter than it is which is mainly how the amp manages different frequencies.
This though is almost completely taken out of the equation if you turn the volume of both amps up to, say, screaming volume.
Quote by bustapr
Another thing that may affect the perceived volume is the bias setting. Some amp companies like to stick 4 tubes in amps and bias it cold, but still call it 100W. Just for reference, a 100W amp with 4 6l6 tubes is actually likely around 76W or 84W(6l6gc) if biased ideally. Some companies like blackstar bias their 100W 6l6 amps colder which makes the wattage even lower.
Just for reference, the 6505 is rated at 130w RMS @ 1kHz @ 5% THD, which is a generous way of rating power amps but still, and it's biased pretty damn cold for sure.
Quote by bustapr
The same amp with EL34 will ideally be a full 100W.


Apart from being a really vague statement, according to specs, EL34's and 6L6 can dissipate around the same max power, so where in the world did you find such info?
Quote by bustapr
A real 100W amp, if Im not mistaken, will be 125% louder than a real
50W amp. Not a massive difference, but its noticeable.
If by louder you mean a volume unit, then you can't make that statement without including a speaker in the equation.

A 100w amp will ideally be capable of delivering a clean signal of 3dB more than a 50w amp to the load, which may be 125% than the output volume of a 50w amp and may also well not be.
Name's Luca.

Quote by OliOsbourne
I don't know anything about this topic, but I just clicked on this thread because of your username :O
Quote by Cajundaddy
Clue: amplifiers amplify so don't turn it on if you need quiet.
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Last edited by Spambot_2 at Oct 27, 2014,
#19
ew I made a mistake there. Mixed a bunch a of the max power rating of tubes and ended up spewing vast amounts of dung through my keyboard. Disregard what i said while I go sit int he corner...
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#20
Quote by juliusxxrock


My JCM 800 2204 (50w) is waaaaaay louder than my 100w valveking. I mean, I can barely turn my JCM past 10 o clock when no one's home, but with my valveking I can turn it past 12 o clock..


Okay, so you've already heard that one manufacturer may have set up his pots so that all the volume change happens in the first bit of the pot's travel.

There are a number of other reasons why one amp might sound louder than the other, including the efficiency of the individual speakers and cabinet. Put 100W through a set of Celestion Rocket 50's and through a set of Vintage 30's in the same cabinet and the Rocket 50's will sound as if you'd cut the amp's power down to 25W. They're at least 5 dB (my measurements suggest more) less efficient than the V30's.

And then there's distortion. Tube amp manufacturers generally are not conservative in rating their amp power, and use some fairly high levels of distortion (5% and up) -- 100W@5% THD is a lot different from 100W@.05% THD. But remember, too, that to the human ear, distortion is often interpreted as loudness. A 5W amp running high levels of distortion can definitely sound louder than a 100W amp running clean, particularly if the levels of distortion are high in the midrange.

Several years ago, a Metallica album was released on a gaming machine, and was also released separately on CD. Fans went nuts, because many felt that the gaming machine version sounded MUCH better. It turns out that Sony mastering engineers dialed in a LOT more distortion on the version mastered for CD "to increase the perception of loudness," and the fans who'd heard the gaming machine version wanted that version instead.

What you're hearing may be an amp that moves into distortion in the midrange earlier than one which moves into it later (thanks to several amp design options), thus making you THINK it's louder.
#21
Quote by dspellman
But remember, too, that to the human ear, distortion is often interpreted as loudness.
Compression is interpreted as loudness, distortion creates compression and the only way to achieve compression with a guitar amp alone is through distortion, but it's not really the distortion itself that makes stuff seem louder.
Name's Luca.

Quote by OliOsbourne
I don't know anything about this topic, but I just clicked on this thread because of your username :O
Quote by Cajundaddy
Clue: amplifiers amplify so don't turn it on if you need quiet.
Quote by chrismendiola
I guess spambots are now capable of reading minds.
#22
Quote by Spambot_2
Compression is interpreted as loudness, distortion creates compression and the only way to achieve compression with a guitar amp alone is through distortion, but it's not really the distortion itself that makes stuff seem louder.


Pedant much?
“Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge.”
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#23
Quote by Arby911
Pedant much?


On the other hand, he's absolutely correct.
And his post added something to the discussion.

Yours, nothing.
#24
Quote by dspellman
On the other hand, he's absolutely correct.
And his post added something to the discussion.

Yours, nothing.



Nor did yours, funny how that works...

Shall we continue, or are you done White Knighting?

Or is this because you're still mad because you acted like a knob-head in the 4x12 thread and got called on it?

In any case, I'm game, your move.
“Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge.”
Charles Darwin
#25
Quote by Arby911
Pedant much?
Definition, according to google.
Quote by google
a person who is excessively concerned with minor details and rules or with displaying academic learning.
And this here seems to me everything but a minor detail.

We wouldn't want TS to think he can make his 15w high gain amp seem louder than a 100w clean amp because of the distortion, would we?
Also we wouldn't want TS to think a clean compressor is of no use, would we?
Quote by Arby911
Or is this because you're still mad because you acted like a knob-head in the 4x12 thread and got called on it?
Ow come on, according to this you could have posted the "pedant much?" because you didn't get over the fact that I still think you can't make a guitar sound good to the whole audience with a 4x12" alone...
Quote by Arby911
In any case, I'm game, your move.
Yeah let's keep up with the constructive discussions so TS (and possibly us as well) will learn stuff from it!
Name's Luca.

Quote by OliOsbourne
I don't know anything about this topic, but I just clicked on this thread because of your username :O
Quote by Cajundaddy
Clue: amplifiers amplify so don't turn it on if you need quiet.
Quote by chrismendiola
I guess spambots are now capable of reading minds.
#26
Quote by Spambot_2
Definition, according to google.
And this here seems to me everything but a minor detail.

We wouldn't want TS to think he can make his 15w high gain amp seem louder than a 100w clean amp because of the distortion, would we?
Also we wouldn't want TS to think a clean compressor is of no use, would we?
Ow come on, according to this you could have posted the "pedant much?" because you didn't get over the fact that I still think you can't make a guitar sound good to the whole audience with a 4x12" alone...
Yeah let's keep up with the constructive discussions so TS (and possibly us as well) will learn stuff from it!


TS has a 15w amp? I missed that part...

I felt it was pedantic because it was excessively detailed as regards the issue, but opinions vary.

The rest wasn't posted to you.

“Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge.”
Charles Darwin
#27
Quote by Arby911
TS has a 15w amp? I missed that part...
That would have wanted to be an example about what we didn't want TS to think.

But you must have missed that part as well.
Name's Luca.

Quote by OliOsbourne
I don't know anything about this topic, but I just clicked on this thread because of your username :O
Quote by Cajundaddy
Clue: amplifiers amplify so don't turn it on if you need quiet.
Quote by chrismendiola
I guess spambots are now capable of reading minds.
#28
Quote by Spambot_2
That would have wanted to be an example about what we didn't want TS to think.

But you must have missed that part as well.


FFS! Why, pray tell, would he think that? That's just nonsensical crap you made up to justify your need to show off your "knowledge".

I'm done here. I should have stopped before I started. I now regret thinking you were ever out to actually learn anything and supporting you to other members of the forum who felt you were a know-it-all prick.

That's a mistake I won't make again.
“Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge.”
Charles Darwin
#29
He was being polite dude. If someone knowledgeable tries to correct you on a misconception just chill, sit back, and learn. Learning from doubts and mistakes is one of the main parts of this forum. No need to get aggressive over something like this -_-
Marty Friedman is GOD!

curently in a SEX MACHINEGUNS and X JAPAN phase AND Galneryus AND Anthem phase

damn J-Metal, why you so awesome

My Gear:

Schecter Hellraiser V-1 fr
Ibanez RG321mh
Fender GDC-200sce
Peavey Vypyr 30 w/ sanpera 1
#30
Quote by Arby911
FFS! Why, pray tell, would he think that? That's just nonsensical crap you made up to justify your need to show off your "knowledge".
My example was exaggerated to give away the point.

If you want a practical example let's substitute 15w with 50w:
we wouldn't want TS to think whatever high gain 50w (RMS @ whatever THD from 20Hz to 20kHz let's say) amp can get louder than whatever clean 100w (RMS @ the same THD as before from 20Hz to 20kHz let's say) with a compressor in front because the first one is a high gain amp.

I didn't want TS to think distortion = higher perceived volume, 'cause that's skipping an important passage that could create misunderstandings in the future.

You didn't find that important?
Well then don't say anything about the matter, but don't call me a prick 'cause I thought clarifying something was important.
Quote by Arby911
I now regret thinking you were ever out to actually learn anything and supporting you to other members of the forum who felt you were a know-it-all prick.
Actually they were telling me I was wrong and they knew I was because they had more experience.

You on the other hand are among the only two people (the other being fly135 during a discussion) who ever gave the impression of thinking I only was a know it all prick.

And fly135 got over it, so now we constructively discuss in some threads.
Name's Luca.

Quote by OliOsbourne
I don't know anything about this topic, but I just clicked on this thread because of your username :O
Quote by Cajundaddy
Clue: amplifiers amplify so don't turn it on if you need quiet.
Quote by chrismendiola
I guess spambots are now capable of reading minds.
#31
Quote by Arby911

Or is this because you're still mad because you acted like a knob-head in the 4x12 thread and got called on it?


??? PM me a link. Must be something I missed.