#1
Hello

My name is Hadi, and I'm from Persia. It's been 5-6 months that I'm actively practicing electric guitar. My progress at playing seems to be fine, although slow because I'm totally blind and i cannot see the guitar and my hands when i play.

Recently I've tried to learn and practice the vibrato technique, But there are many questions in my mind that make me a little confused regarding vibrato in general.

First of all, Should i get the habit of Vibrato by wrist, (the one that you have to rotate your wrist to do vibrato), or by my fingers?

Secondly, There's a general question regarding vibrato that is driving me crazy.
For doing vibrato, Am i supposed to pull the string downward, then back at the center where the main note is, then upward, then back at my main note? like this:
up, back at center, down, back at center, up, center, down, center, up, center, down.
Or, I just need to simply vibrate in only one direction; let's say just downward.
I have experimented with this for a while. I can make some good noises when i'm vibrating in one direction with my wrist, but when i try to vibrate in two directions, I make some bad weird noises.

Overall, My vibratos are terrible and i hate my tone when i do it.
Can someone help me with this? i would be appreciated a lot.
English is my second language, So if my post is poorly written, please let me know so i could explain my problem a bit more. If needed, i could record myself.
#3
If you are blind I will not use any words that will trick your screen reading software.

Most players will move the entire wrist. But finger vibrato is useful if the rest of the hand needs to stay in the same place. I think that you get a more consistent sound when using the wrist instead of curling the fingers.

Have a friend watch this video starting about 3 minutes and 40 seconds in where this person starts talking about different examples of vibrato. Then tell your friend to move your hand in the same way that the guy in the video is demonstrating. The link to the video is the last thing posted in this response.

Most players will only go in one direction. Up and back to center, or down and back to center. Whether you go up or down makes no difference in sound. I bend towards me when playing on the thinner strings and away from me when on the thicker strings.

The way you described going up then back to center then down, is an advanced way of doing it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7YdQajUYoq8
#4
Quote by Black_devils
How did you type if you're blind, and how will you be able to read what I've posted?

Voice-to-text and screen readers respectively. The internet, as long as sites are well made, is accessible to all, no matter the disabilities.

Quote by hadi_gsf
Hello

My name is Hadi, and I'm from Persia. It's been 5-6 months that I'm actively practicing electric guitar. My progress at playing seems to be fine, although slow because I'm totally blind and i cannot see the guitar and my hands when i play.

Recently I've tried to learn and practice the vibrato technique, But there are many questions in my mind that make me a little confused regarding vibrato in general.

First of all, Should i get the habit of Vibrato by wrist, (the one that you have to rotate your wrist to do vibrato), or by my fingers?

Secondly, There's a general question regarding vibrato that is driving me crazy.
For doing vibrato, Am i supposed to pull the string downward, then back at the center where the main note is, then upward, then back at my main note? like this:
up, back at center, down, back at center, up, center, down, center, up, center, down.
Or, I just need to simply vibrate in only one direction; let's say just downward.
I have experimented with this for a while. I can make some good noises when i'm vibrating in one direction with my wrist, but when i try to vibrate in two directions, I make some bad weird noises.

Overall, My vibratos are terrible and i hate my tone when i do it.
Can someone help me with this? i would be appreciated a lot.
English is my second language, So if my post is poorly written, please let me know so i could explain my problem a bit more. If needed, i could record myself.

Generally people use one direction for vibrato, I don't think I've seen many people at all, if any, do vibrato both ways on the same string. You'll probably find that you need to do is go in one direction for the lower strings and the other for the higher strings to give yourself enough space on the fretboard though so that's something you need to practice and experiment with.

You should also generally be doing vibrato with the wrist. It is, of course, entirely possible to do finger vibrato but mechanically speaking the wrist is less strenuous on your hand.

If you can record yourself, with video, then that will make the advice you get more specific if you need it, but you might very well find that this is just something you need to experiment with a little and get used to. Even some amazing shredders have terrible vibrato so don't worry about not getting it to begin with; it does take practice to get it sounding really good.
#5
Doing vibrato both up and down is useful when applying vibrato to a note you previously bent. I remember watching a Tom Hess video on youtube some years ago and well, he had a point. If you do vibrato both ways it will have a more aggressive sound because the pitch will shift between below and above the desired note.

When you do vibrato, it doesnt matter how wide your vibrato is, make sure you always return to the original note you started on.

To answer your question, on electric guitar you definitely want to use your wrist for vibrato.
#6
Quote by hadi_gsf
Hello

My name is Hadi, and I'm from Persia. It's been 5-6 months that I'm actively practicing electric guitar. My progress at playing seems to be fine, although slow because I'm totally blind and i cannot see the guitar and my hands when i play.

Recently I've tried to learn and practice the vibrato technique, But there are many questions in my mind that make me a little confused regarding vibrato in general.

First of all, Should i get the habit of Vibrato by wrist, (the one that you have to rotate your wrist to do vibrato), or by my fingers?

Secondly, There's a general question regarding vibrato that is driving me crazy.
For doing vibrato, Am i supposed to pull the string downward, then back at the center where the main note is, then upward, then back at my main note? like this:
up, back at center, down, back at center, up, center, down, center, up, center, down.
Or, I just need to simply vibrate in only one direction; let's say just downward.
I have experimented with this for a while. I can make some good noises when i'm vibrating in one direction with my wrist, but when i try to vibrate in two directions, I make some bad weird noises.

Overall, My vibratos are terrible and i hate my tone when i do it.
Can someone help me with this? i would be appreciated a lot.
English is my second language, So if my post is poorly written, please let me know so i could explain my problem a bit more. If needed, i could record myself.


Hi Hadi,

Wrist gives you a lot more srength and control. Use you wrist and lock your fingers.

Your choice of direction will be limited by which string is involved and how wide you want the vibrato to sound, and on hand strength and string gauge. I tend to stick to pushing towards the bass strings and releasing (when on treble strings) and towards the treble strings when I'm on the bass E, A or D strings. Make sure you always come back to unbent before starting the next cycle of push, release, otherwise it sounds out of tune.

Good idea to practice against a metronome, say using 1/8th and 1/16th notes (e.g. 1/16th is a push, next a release).

Another simple, great sounding technique is slide-vibrato, which emulates vibrato by very rapid sliding by a few frets either side of the pitch along that string.

Good luck. Jerry

(p.s I've done a lot of work in software for accessibility. Do have a tab reader? That would seem to be challenging to design)
#7
Hello

Thank you guys for all your amazing and helpful posts, They were clear and precise!


Quote by Black_devils
How did you type if you're blind, and how will you be able to read what I've posted?

All you need is a soundcard, headphones, a keyboard, and Screen-reading software. The software will read the elements of the screen aloud as you navigate through them using the keyboard (standard navigation), and I just type to write as you do when i want to write something; It should be easy for everyone to type without looking at their keyboards.

Quote by bigblockelectra
Have a friend watch this video starting about 3 minutes and 40 seconds in where this person starts talking about different examples of vibrato. Then tell your friend to move your hand in the same way that the guy in the video is demonstrating.

good idea! I'm going to meat one of my friends tomorrow, I should show these videos to him and ask him to demonstrate the movements for me.
Quote by Zaphod_Beeblebr
Generally people use one direction for vibrato, I don't think I've seen many people at all, if any, do vibrato both ways on the same string. You'll probably
find that you need to do is go in one direction for the lower strings and the other for the higher strings to give yourself enough space on the fretboard
though so that's something you need to practice and experiment with.

You should also generally be doing vibrato with the wrist. It is, of course, entirely possible to do finger vibrato but mechanically speaking the wrist
is less strenuous on your hand.

Thanks for your advice. Now that i see that pretty much all of you guys are recommending the one direction vibrato, I'm going to focus on it, and I feel that i'll improve if i practice this way. I'm also going to use my wrist.
Quote by tappooh
When you do vibrato, it doesnt matter how wide your vibrato is, make sure you always return to the original note you started on.

Great. I don't have usually this problem, but i find that I'm struggling with my vibratos being constent, sometimes i push the string harder sometime soft, making the vibrato not that good. gotta practice on that!

Quote by jerrykramskoy
Hi Hadi,

Wrist gives you a lot more srength and control. Use you wrist and lock your fingers.

Your choice of direction will be limited by which string is involved and how wide you want the vibrato to sound, and on hand strength and string gauge. I tend to stick to pushing towards the bass strings and releasing (when on treble strings) and towards the treble strings when I'm on the bass E, A or D strings. Make sure you always come back to unbent before starting the next cycle of push, release, otherwise it sounds out of tune.

Good idea to practice against a metronome, say using 1/8th and 1/16th notes (e.g. 1/16th is a push, next a release).

Another simple, great sounding technique is slide-vibrato, which emulates vibrato by very rapid sliding by a few frets either side of the pitch along that string.

Good luck. Jerry

(p.s I've done a lot of work in software for accessibility. Do have a tab reader? That would seem to be challenging to design)

Heya, Thanks for your help. I'll practice on metronome as you mentioned, and I'll try to learn to push the high strings to above, and push the low strings to below so that would give me good spacing.
Regarding a tab reader software, Currently there is one called "luna accessible tab reader", which reads gp4 and 5 tabs, but it is almost 90% crashy and I usually have to struggle with the program to have it running more than focusing on my actual playing.
There is not a lot of materials for visually impaired guitar players on the internet, either software or web-based apps, though there's one chord generator that is designed by chordbook.com if i'm not mistaking which is nice.

Once again, thanks everybody for posting, It's so cool that i actually know what i'm going to practice, that pushes my progress a lot further
#8
Hey. I hope you got the answer you were looking for, but I also have another suggestion that I thought could be interesting.

It's not a replacement for regular guitar and usually comes in addition to it, but have you ever thought of playing a fretless guitar? As the name suggests, it has no frets - like in violins, and you have to put your fingertips exactly where the strings should vibrate (rather than before the frets), while it gives you the ability to perform a "protamento" - a smooth slide containing all of the pitches between two points, and also the vibrato there could be played like in a violin - by quickly sliding your fingers up and down the center of a note, giving you a bi-directional vibrato that goes both above and below the main pitch (in contrast with string bending which only goes up).

The reason I suggest this is because blind people tend to use their sense of hearing much more efficiently and accurately. Now, I'm sure most musicians have some form of an improved hearing, or listening ability, but a blind musician most definitely can only relay on their sense of hearing and sense of touch. Playing a fretless instrument requires paying attention to delicate details, so I thought it might work interestingly from the point of a blind player. It's not a replacement, as I said, because it's generally harder to play, has a different sound for the better and the worse, and is more difficult for playing chords, but could produce incredible solos with the right hand.


Sorry for the long post, just an interesting suggestion!
#9
Quote by TLGuitar
Hey. I hope you got the answer you were looking for, but I also have another suggestion that I thought could be interesting.

It's not a replacement for regular guitar and usually comes in addition to it, but have you ever thought of playing a fretless guitar? As the name suggests, it has no frets - like in violins, and you have to put your fingertips exactly where the strings should vibrate (rather than before the frets), while it gives you the ability to perform a "protamento" - a smooth slide containing all of the pitches between two points, and also the vibrato there could be played like in a violin - by quickly sliding your fingers up and down the center of a note, giving you a bi-directional vibrato that goes both above and below the main pitch (in contrast with string bending which only goes up).

The reason I suggest this is because blind people tend to use their sense of hearing much more efficiently and accurately. Now, I'm sure most musicians have some form of an improved hearing, or listening ability, but a blind musician most definitely can only relay on their sense of hearing and sense of touch. Playing a fretless instrument requires paying attention to delicate details, so I thought it might work interestingly from the point of a blind player. It's not a replacement, as I said, because it's generally harder to play, has a different sound for the better and the worse, and is more difficult for playing chords, but could produce incredible solos with the right hand.


Sorry for the long post, just an interesting suggestion!

I've once seen a base guitar like that, and It looked amazing.
While I tend to recognize notes and my ears are picky about them, I am currently struggling to learn the fretboard and a lot of times my fingers land where they shouldn't do.
I sometimes have a feeling that maybe you should be able to see the guitar visually at the first place, to teach your hands the fretboard and after that you can never look at your guitar and play.
But i'm giving this a try and i'm practicing 2 hours a day to see if I can improve at this point. a fretless guitar would be giving unique experiences, specially playing solos, but I think that'd be sooo hard! Once i'm at a guitar center i'm going to find one and play to see how they sound!

Regarding wrist-vibrato, today I was practicing it a bit, and I found a trouble: I cannot vibrate my index finger with my wrist. my wrist moves but my index finger doesn't LOL.
#10
I think both are useful. I think I often do a bit of both, bend the string a bit one direction, and then wiggle the wrist. I'm not sure exactly what goes on all the time, but I think of it a little as rolling the finger back and forth.

To me, vibrato is one of those things I wouldn't spend much time on though. It is a great technique, sounds awesome, and puts a nice polish on your playing, but I find it comes quite naturally from playing after a while. I personally never really practiced it, but i use all the time. So, I don't know exactly what I do, because I never really thought about it.

You don't want it to sound forced though, and I think it is a technique you want when you are good and comfortable with what you're doing. Idk how good you are at guitar, but I wouldn't worry about it too much.
#11
Quote by hadi_gsf
I've once seen a base guitar like that, and It looked amazing.
While I tend to recognize notes and my ears are picky about them, I am currently struggling to learn the fretboard and a lot of times my fingers land where they shouldn't do.
I sometimes have a feeling that maybe you should be able to see the guitar visually at the first place, to teach your hands the fretboard and after that you can never look at your guitar and play.
But i'm giving this a try and i'm practicing 2 hours a day to see if I can improve at this point. a fretless guitar would be giving unique experiences, specially playing solos, but I think that'd be sooo hard! Once i'm at a guitar center i'm going to find one and play to see how they sound!

Regarding wrist-vibrato, today I was practicing it a bit, and I found a trouble: I cannot vibrate my index finger with my wrist. my wrist moves but my index finger doesn't LOL.


Yeah, the fretless-bass is more common, but in practice it's the same thing. I'd say that players of fretless guitars probably only got to them after being proficient at the regular guitar, but that's because it is the more common type. It indeed requires a delicate accuracy and a lot of skill as mentioned, but violin players start playing it without having a fretted version, so it's not really a requirement. I would mention that fretless guitars usually have painted indicators on the upper side of their neck that visually aid with placing your fingers, but it's not really needed after being accustomed with the instrument, I assume.
#12
Hadi,

How would you expect an accessible UI for teaching guitar to interact with you? Voice telling you where to place your hands, or reading out chords, or some form of special hardware which creates some sort of haptic feedback?

cheers, Jerry
#13
Quote by jerrykramskoy
Hadi,

How would you expect an accessible UI for teaching guitar to interact with you? Voice telling you where to place your hands, or reading out chords, or some form of special hardware which creates some sort of haptic feedback?

cheers, Jerry


Actually, this is a really good question... I feel like there's a real gap in the tools available to us here. Modern software and UI design must be able make this kind of thing easier somehow...

Time to put on my thinking cap I reckon.
#14
Quote by jerrykramskoy
Hadi,

How would you expect an accessible UI for teaching guitar to interact with you? Voice telling you where to place your hands, or reading out chords, or some form of special hardware which creates some sort of haptic feedback?

cheers, Jerry


Hi Jerry
That's an interesting question. I'm a basic guitar player, and I've just started recently, So I might have better concepts when i'm more advanced; however, I believe the most easy and comfortable way to get some sort of training is by hearing, as a blind person.
Of course i'm talking about software and technology, not human teachers, because a teacher can interact with you physically, and besides instructing you by their voice, they can also physically demonstrate the movements and correct your errors.

But when it comes to software and online helpers, I imagine some sort of instructional software, that receives input via voice commands, or midi controllers. I found it hard to put down my guitar, use my keyboard to read something, then grab my guitar again and get the right posture again.

In terms of what the UI would offer, once again i'm not too advance, But i think a scale/mode/chord generator, technique references or some kind of tab reader and tab creator would be cool.

Regarding tactile-type hardware, I haven't really thought about it. surely there are awesome concepts out there...
#15
Your english is excellent

I generally vibrato with my wrist if at all possible- i'm a blues/rock/metal player, though, so that might just be what works best for those types of music (and for me personally).

I only vibrato in the one direction- generally speaking, I bend/vibrato in the direction where there's the most room on the fretboard, so I don't pull the string off the edge of the fretboard. So for the 1st, 2nd and 3rd strings, I bend/vibrato towards the ceiling, and for the 6th, 5th and 4th strings I bend/vibrato towards the floor. That's not a hard and fast rule, though, and for the 3rd and 4th strings there's generally room on the fretboard to bend/vibrato in either direction.
#16
Quote by hadi_gsf
Hi Jerry
That's an interesting question. I'm a basic guitar player, and I've just started recently, So I might have better concepts when i'm more advanced; however, I believe the most easy and comfortable way to get some sort of training is by hearing, as a blind person.
Of course i'm talking about software and technology, not human teachers, because a teacher can interact with you physically, and besides instructing you by their voice, they can also physically demonstrate the movements and correct your errors.

But when it comes to software and online helpers, I imagine some sort of instructional software, that receives input via voice commands, or midi controllers. I found it hard to put down my guitar, use my keyboard to read something, then grab my guitar again and get the right posture again.

In terms of what the UI would offer, once again i'm not too advance, But i think a scale/mode/chord generator, technique references or some kind of tab reader and tab creator would be cool.

Regarding tactile-type hardware, I haven't really thought about it. surely there are awesome concepts out there...


Hadi,

This has made me think a lot. When you have guitar in hand, how do you find you're way to a given fret? Is it by awareness of distance from some landmark (the nut on the guitar?) or are the physical markers (maybe grooves or bumps on the neck)?

I'm just wondering how you'd respond to a voice saying "play 8th fret on the E string" for example?

It strikes me that, using a MIDI guitar (e.g. like "YouROCK" guitar), software can track exactly where you are playing, and often corrective advice, for learning. The tricky bit is still something like "tab-to-speech" ... that would seem to be real hard work for you to follow, especially for a piece based mainly around chords with melody notes added.

Maybe the music could be broken down into small chunks which are each played in a narrow region of the neck (not necessarily the same region), and software for a tablet could speak whihc region is about to be used, and then give vibrational feedback of frets/strings played.

Best of luck with your guitar playing.
cheers, Jerry
#17
@Dave_Mc thanks a lot! I am also going to practice the same thing, though I think i will be putting my thumb behind the fretboard, instead of putting it at the top.

@Jerry I have made some bumps on the back of the fretboard, behind the (third, fifth, seventh, and 12th) frets. That helps me to quickly jump into the different parts of the guitar, but Still, I'm very, very slow at finding the right fret. finding The strings is not a problem as i can fastly find which string to play, but within the string, I still have problems finding my way.
If you give me a guitar that does not have bumps on the neck, You'll find me counting the frets two by two to find the right one. I wish i hadn't made my guitar this way, so i could use some kind of.. landmarks, and find the right frets depending on their position toward my arm. that would give me a lot of Automaticity.

Breaking a song into small chunks is a very good idea of practicing, I like your idea. I figured this out when reading one of John Petrucci's interviews in which he said things would be easy if you break down the song into very small chunks, then practice the pieces one by one.
Thanks
Cheers
Hadi
#18
Quote by hadi_gsf
@Dave_Mc thanks a lot! I am also going to practice the same thing, though I think i will be putting my thumb behind the fretboard, instead of putting it at the top.


If you're trying to do the blues/rock-style vibrato (i.e. side-to-side parallel to the frets, like bends in other words), thumb around the neck will generally make that a lot easier.
#19
Quote by Dave_Mc
If you're trying to do the blues/rock-style vibrato (i.e. side-to-side parallel to the frets, like bends in other words), thumb around the neck will generally make that a lot easier.


Thus is right, but really, if you want to be a strong guitarist you will want to be able to play in both thumb positions, be able to quickly and swiftly switch between the two, and vibrato in any situation you want. I find this requires a number of vibrato techniques.

Like I said though, imo vibrato is not where you want to spend your practice time. Vibrato should come to you naturally once you master your other techniques of playing.

I would differentiate that from bends which also make use of the above technique a lot. This, is something you will want to practice, but more in improvisations imo.

It was actually a decent amount of time of playing before I used vibrato the way I do now. If you try and force it won't sound natural. The other techniques need to be easy before it will imo.
#20
oh yeah i didn't mean it was identical to bends, i just used that to describe it.

i reckon you can practise vibrato, though. and probably should.

i would also wonder if, once you get good at switching between thumb behind and thumb around, that you might be able to just switch to thumb around most times you need to do vibrato. i mean, i can do vibrato with my thumb behind if i absolutely have to, but it's so much easier with thumb around that I generally avoid it if at all possible.
Last edited by Dave_Mc at Nov 17, 2014,
#21
Of course you can practice vibrato. It's simple get a metronome out set it to the most comfortable BPM then practice it. That's actually how I developed my vibrato honestly it's not that hard.
#22
Quote by Dave_Mc
oh yeah i didn't mean it was identical to bends, i just used that to describe it.

i reckon you can practise vibrato, though. and probably should.

i would also wonder if, once you get good at switching between thumb behind and thumb around, that you might be able to just switch to thumb around most times you need to do vibrato. i mean, i can do vibrato with my thumb behind if i absolutely have to, but it's so much easier with thumb around that I generally avoid it if at all possible.


Quote by Black_devils
Of course you can practice vibrato. It's simple get a metronome out set it to the most comfortable BPM then practice it. That's actually how I developed my vibrato honestly it's not that hard.


You can practice absolutely anything, of course. I'm just giving my advice as to what is the most efficient way to go about it. For me, vibrato came naturally, and I prefer it that way because it sounds natural. It should be a natural expression.

Maybe you practiced it, and maybe it sounds unnatural when you do it. Idk, you wouldn't be able to tell though obviously, if it did.

But it's an order and priority thing. If vibrato will come naturally, why would you spend time on it? you could spend time working on something else instead.

And when should you practice vibrato if you really want to practice it? Before you can even play the standard shapes on time?

Everybody that asks any question, of brings up any facet to music can always be answered with "sure, practice that" this is not any sort of advice at all. You can't just practice everything all the time. There is a finite quantity of time to practice things, and a most efficient way to become the level of guitarist you want to become.

Imo, vibrato should come naturally, and should sound natural. I never practiced it, and I vibrato all over the place in a number of techinques. I don't think my vibrato is quantized though, at least not always.

It is a comon mistake many amateurs do in practicing many things, where they see experts do something, andf they imitate it, without realizing that they are forcing themselves to do something that would follow naturally without effort if the rest was correct. These are usually small details, like vibrato. When people focus on practicing these things, they don't realize how it is supposed to feel, like, say a golf swing.

People will look at it, and see how it should look, let's say the finish, so they will have a terrible swing, which doesn't flow right, but they still finish in the golfer finish position, because that's what they see good golfers do. But it looks all wrong when they do it, because it's not natural.

If your swing is correct and natural, then it will easily end up on its own in the classic finish position. You don't have to force it. If you do, it won't look fluid or correct.

To me, vibrato is this way. Of course you can practice it. I wouldn't spend any time on it. it will come easy when you get strength and power and finesse and guitar becomes easy.

If you've not reached that point yet, then imo, your time is best served doing that, first.

You know, you want him to practice to make hisr finish look beautiful, and he can't even hit his ball in the fairway. but when he does, his finish will naturally look nice. He could practice it though, obviously.

Feel free to think otherwise, that's just my opinion. Obviously anyone can practice anything and dissect anything. The question is whether or not they should.
#23
I think my vibrato sounds pretty natural

if I practise it I get there more quickly

if you ask me vibrato is probably the number 1 thing which separates the sheep from the goats. it makes you sound better than you are if you have a decent vibrato. so to me it makes sense to try to get there as quickly as possible.

if i see someone who can play all the scale shapes or who knows all the chords, if his/her vibrato is poor I still write them off as an amateur. Maybe I'm biased because my vibrato is (I think ) alrightish and I'm too lazy to learn all the other stuff.
#24
Quote by Dave_Mc
I think my vibrato sounds pretty natural

if I practise it I get there more quickly

if you ask me vibrato is probably the number 1 thing which separates the sheep from the goats. it makes you sound better than you are if you have a decent vibrato. so to me it makes sense to try to get there as quickly as possible.

if i see someone who can play all the scale shapes or who knows all the chords, if his/her vibrato is poor I still write them off as an amateur. Maybe I'm biased because my vibrato is (I think ) alrightish and I'm too lazy to learn all the other stuff.


So, what you're saying is that it makes sense to practice the little details that come naturally to highly skilled musicians, in order to create the appearance that you are more highly skilled than you actually are.

What I'm saying is that I find it more sensible to just focus on becoming good, and then you will necessarily possess a good vibrsto in the process.

I personally judge the skill of a musician on the music they play. Vibrato no doubt is a nice polish. And sure it makes one appear less of an amateur, because it comes automatically to skilled musicians. But if the rest isnt there, what differnece does vibrato make? Why would you judge someone based on vibrato?

I think I know what you're saying, but honestly? Are you really gonna listen to great music, and then brush it off because it lacks vibrato? Or listen to bad music, and think its good because there is vibrato?

Obviously vibrato is a trait of an advanced musician, but then let yourself become adcanced and it will indicate that.

Don't show up with a 10,000$ guitar and you only know 3 chords. Its much better to show up with a cheaper gyitar and kill it, imo.

You know what i mean? You are saying to focus on smoke and mirrors and the illusion of being good. I'm saying focus on being good and you won't have to worry about forcing details to give people that impression.
#25
For the guys wondering, how do you find your way to a specific fret without being able to see? Try practicing in total darkness for a year. I did it many years ago for two reasons, to improve accuracy, and I was wondering the same thing. How do guys like Stevie Wonder, Jose Feliciano, Roy Orbison and Ray Charles play at all without being able to see? Jose Feliciano could do some amazing things with a guitar totally blind. So I set up my room to be absolutely totally dark and I practiced exclusively that way for over a year. Can't see your hand 6 inches away dark...it helped a lot, I learned several songs, some from scratch, in total darkness. I also wanted to be able to play onstage without watching the guitar neck constantly. Once you do it for a while, you develop a type of muscle memory for where the frets are. I play a lot of leads these days while watching the audience. I have always recommended practicing in darkness for 30 years. It helps a lot with accuracy, and you don't have to watch your fretting hand constantly.

Anyway to respond to the vibrato question, I use different methods depending on what I want. Sometimes I just wiggle the finger fretting the note up and down, sometimes I rotate the wrist while fretting, and if I want a slow vibrato I move the entire hand up and down stretching the string a bit both directions in the process. With practice you can do a vibrato on entire chords. Which one I use depends on the effect I want.

hadi - If your software has problems with my post I apologize, I tried to proofread this post closer than usual but I sometimes miss things...
#26
Quote by fingrpikingood
So, what you're saying is that it makes sense to practice the little details that come naturally to highly skilled musicians, in order to create the appearance that you are more highly skilled than you actually are.

What I'm saying is that I find it more sensible to just focus on becoming good, and then you will necessarily possess a good vibrsto in the process.

I personally judge the skill of a musician on the music they play. Vibrato no doubt is a nice polish. And sure it makes one appear less of an amateur, because it comes automatically to skilled musicians. But if the rest isnt there, what differnece does vibrato make? Why would you judge someone based on vibrato?

I think I know what you're saying, but honestly? Are you really gonna listen to great music, and then brush it off because it lacks vibrato? Or listen to bad music, and think its good because there is vibrato?

Obviously vibrato is a trait of an advanced musician, but then let yourself become adcanced and it will indicate that.

Don't show up with a 10,000$ guitar and you only know 3 chords. Its much better to show up with a cheaper gyitar and kill it, imo.

You know what i mean? You are saying to focus on smoke and mirrors and the illusion of being good. I'm saying focus on being good and you won't have to worry about forcing details to give people that impression.


I sort of know what you mean, but I kind of disagree. I've seen way too many people who had the technique you talk about who still had bad vibrato to make me really be completely convinced that it'll definitely come naturally if you don't practise it.

I judge it on whether it sounds good. To me, if the vibrato is bad, it pretty much sounds bad by definition.

I also wouldn't necessarily agree that having good vibrato is "smoke and mirrors". There are plenty of great players who didn't have too many chops but who people (whether musicians or not) like to listen to because they have (or had) good vibrato. The same is rarely true for people who have the chops but bad vibrato (I'm a shred fan and even I recognise that).
#27
Quote by Dave_Mc
I sort of know what you mean, but I kind of disagree. I've seen way too many people who had the technique you talk about who still had bad vibrato to make me really be completely convinced that it'll definitely come naturally if you don't practise it.

I judge it on whether it sounds good. To me, if the vibrato is bad, it pretty much sounds bad by definition.

I also wouldn't necessarily agree that having good vibrato is "smoke and mirrors". There are plenty of great players who didn't have too many chops but who people (whether musicians or not) like to listen to because they have (or had) good vibrato. The same is rarely true for people who have the chops but bad vibrato (I'm a shred fan and even I recognise that).


I'm saying, be good, and you will appear good. If you are good, you will have good vibrato without practising it.

You are saying to practise vibrato in order to appear good.

If you are good, you don't have to spend any time putting effort in appearing to be good.

That's why to me, it is kind of a waste of time practising something like vibrato. Who cares what you appear? That's just the surface. Just be good.

If you put all your effort into learning what you need to learn to be good, you will have your vibrato. From this thread I went and looked at how I did vibrato, and easily came across like, 6 different ways before I gave up. I never put 5 minutes into practising it.

It makes no sense to practise that technique until fretting what you're playing is easy for you.When it becomes easy you can do all of that no problem, and slides and tons of techniques like that. Then you can make some 50$ piece of shit guitar sound to people like it cost north of a grand. Then you sound like a pro and people are impressed, because you are.

You are saying to practise like sounding like a pro, instead of practising to become one, how I see it.

I'm just saying to OP, don't worry about vibrato, that will come on its own. Focus your efforts on other things instead.

You think it is worth it to practise those techniques, I don't, and that's why. That's all there is to it. Everybody is different, learns differently, has their own philosophies, and that's all good.

There is no right or wrong. There is how you do it, and how I do it. All we can do is share our philosophies with OP, and they will decide whatever path they feel is more suitable for them.
#28
@Dave_MC and @fingrpikingood
You guys did bring a lot of helpful points here.
My original question was (how to do the vibrato properly), so that when I'm doing it while practicing/playing guitar in general, I perform the technique in the right way, so I could get a great sound of my vibratos, and also, I wouldn't learn the bad way of doing it and get the habit of that.

As for "Practicing" it, I am going to put a small time for doing Vibrato with a metronom, Because i feel that my left hand's wrist is a bit weak and it needs to be trained a bit. But as also fingrpikingood mentioned, You could practice a lot of things, and alongside of those you can do vibratos, and slowly you'll find yourself improved at that field.
I need to experiment with the thumb position more. or perhaps I need to be more advanced to try that. but yeah, all i wanted to know is the proper way of doing it, which i got lots and lots of helpful replies to that, thanks everyone for posting! you're awsome.

@Paleo Pete
Don't worry, The Screen Reader pretty much reads everything, including my own mis spells!
I'm not sure whether I should agree/disagree with you there, Because there are many expert players or just many guitarists who can play guitar without looking at their hands; but As a starter, i find it quite hard to play without seeing!
But I have a feeling that everything is possible with the right amount of practice and patience
#29
Quote by fingrpikingood
I'm saying, be good, and you will appear good. If you are good, you will have good vibrato without practising it.

You are saying to practise vibrato in order to appear good.

If you are good, you don't have to spend any time putting effort in appearing to be good.

That's why to me, it is kind of a waste of time practising something like vibrato. Who cares what you appear? That's just the surface. Just be good.

If you put all your effort into learning what you need to learn to be good, you will have your vibrato. From this thread I went and looked at how I did vibrato, and easily came across like, 6 different ways before I gave up. I never put 5 minutes into practising it.

It makes no sense to practise that technique until fretting what you're playing is easy for you.When it becomes easy you can do all of that no problem, and slides and tons of techniques like that. Then you can make some 50$ piece of shit guitar sound to people like it cost north of a grand. Then you sound like a pro and people are impressed, because you are.

You are saying to practise like sounding like a pro, instead of practising to become one, how I see it.

I'm just saying to OP, don't worry about vibrato, that will come on its own. Focus your efforts on other things instead.

You think it is worth it to practise those techniques, I don't, and that's why. That's all there is to it. Everybody is different, learns differently, has their own philosophies, and that's all good.

There is no right or wrong. There is how you do it, and how I do it. All we can do is share our philosophies with OP, and they will decide whatever path they feel is more suitable for them.


Here is exactly what you are saying:

"This thing will make you sound better. Do not practice this thing. Trust that it will come in time."

People like you have said this about literally every single aspect of playing guitar at various points and it's never been good advice, frankly the evidence is all over youtube: there are hundreds of otherwise good musicians who sound terrible because any time they hold a note it sounds awful. You should focus on appearing to be good because there is nothing else. There is only the appearance. If you sound good then you are good, if you sound like a pro then you are a pro, because what else is there?

Of course practising it to the exclusion of playing cleanly and in time is dumb but really there is nothing at all to be lost by spending, say, 10 minutes in your practice session listening to your own vibrato and making sure it sounds the way you want it to sound.
#30
Quote by hadi_gsf
@Dave_MC and @fingrpikingood
You guys did bring a lot of helpful points here.
My original question was (how to do the vibrato properly), so that when I'm doing it while practicing/playing guitar in general, I perform the technique in the right way, so I could get a great sound of my vibratos, and also, I wouldn't learn the bad way of doing it and get the habit of that.

As for "Practicing" it, I am going to put a small time for doing Vibrato with a metronom, Because i feel that my left hand's wrist is a bit weak and it needs to be trained a bit. But as also fingrpikingood mentioned, You could practice a lot of things, and alongside of those you can do vibratos, and slowly you'll find yourself improved at that field.
I need to experiment with the thumb position more. or perhaps I need to be more advanced to try that. but yeah, all i wanted to know is the proper way of doing it, which i got lots and lots of helpful replies to that, thanks everyone for posting! you're awsome.

@Paleo Pete
Don't worry, The Screen Reader pretty much reads everything, including my own mis spells!
I'm not sure whether I should agree/disagree with you there, Because there are many expert players or just many guitarists who can play guitar without looking at their hands; but As a starter, i find it quite hard to play without seeing!
But I have a feeling that everything is possible with the right amount of practice and patience



Yes go on to practice your vibrato! Anything can be practiced in my honest opinion I think your vibrato will naturally emerge once you get to experimenting with it, but still in order for this to happen you must practice it! Nothing relating to the guitar just doesn't "happen" you have to practice, and practice then practice some more. Don't believe in all this natural crap people get on the level they're playing at because they put in tons of hours studying music. Funny thing is pushing down strings on a piece of wood isn't so natural lol....
#31
Quote by Zaphod_Beeblebr
Here is exactly what you are saying:

"This thing will make you sound better. Do not practice this thing. Trust that it will come in time."

People like you have said this about literally every single aspect of playing guitar at various points and it's never been good advice, frankly the evidence is all over youtube: there are hundreds of otherwise good musicians who sound terrible because any time they hold a note it sounds awful. You should focus on appearing to be good because there is nothing else. There is only the appearance. If you sound good then you are good, if you sound like a pro then you are a pro, because what else is there?

Of course practising it to the exclusion of playing cleanly and in time is dumb but really there is nothing at all to be lost by spending, say, 10 minutes in your practice session listening to your own vibrato and making sure it sounds the way you want it to sound.



You misunderstood me. I am not saying that at all. But you are free to your opinion.

Playing with feel is honesty. It's like an orgasm. You could fake an orgasm, and you could break it down in parts, and learn all these things you need to fake, and you could practice those. But it is not genuine. You won't be able to capture the essence by faking it. It will appear a cheap knockoff. It will look like you are a poser, to me. Like you buy an expensive guitar to look like a pro, but you're not. Same thing.

If the physical things you had to learn in order to appear you had an orgasm were difficult, then you'd need to becomes strong and flexible in the required muscles, but that's it. You wouldn't have to fake the individual moves. You could just be honest, and it would be correct.

A true professional performance is not just practicing moves. That's how you get that whole shredding through exercises stuff. It's not art to me.

That's why to me ok, to me, it makes more sense to spend effort working on other stuff. The details of expression should come naturally. That's why it sounds professional, to me. It's not because they practiced some skill that appears professional. Art is not that way to me. Vibrato does not equal professional sounding to me. Expression sounds professional to me. Vibrato is a natural by product of expression. Faking vibrato is not expression. The two are not the same, and I find them distinguishable.

You are free to hold your own opinion. That's just my opinion. I'm not gonna make contradictions in my own opinion, so, obviously, the illusion of professional, and truly professional is different to me. Apparently it is not to you. So you have your philosophy and I have mine.

What you can't say though, is that vibrato doesn't come naturally, because here I am. Maybe it comes naturally to some people and not to others though, but my philosophy takes that into account.
Last edited by fingrpikingood at Nov 18, 2014,
#32
^ I never said vibrato absoutely couldn't come naturally. It may well do, for some people. But it's not guaranteed to.

I agree with you (on that point at least), I don't have much time for people who say crap like "It's impossible to do X unless you practise Y for hours." Because as you said, your own personal experience may trump that. For example, some people say you *will* have bad timing if you don't use a metronome. Bullshit. Some people just have good timing. I've never used a metronome in my life, I'm just lucky that my timing seems (I think ) to be pretty good.

But that's not the same (at all) as saying that you can't practise it, or that you shouldn't practise it. If someone comes in and says they're struggling with timing, I don't say, "Uh, timing should come naturally!". I say, "Go and get a metronome (or at least play along to backing tracks etc.) and practise your timing."

Quote by Zaphod_Beeblebr
Here is exactly what you are saying:

"This thing will make you sound better. Do not practice this thing. Trust that it will come in time."

People like you have said this about literally every single aspect of playing guitar at various points and it's never been good advice, frankly the evidence is all over youtube: there are hundreds of otherwise good musicians who sound terrible because any time they hold a note it sounds awful. You should focus on appearing to be good because there is nothing else. There is only the appearance. If you sound good then you are good, if you sound like a pro then you are a pro, because what else is there?

Of course practising it to the exclusion of playing cleanly and in time is dumb but really there is nothing at all to be lost by spending, say, 10 minutes in your practice session listening to your own vibrato and making sure it sounds the way you want it to sound.


+1

If it sounds good, it is good.

If it doesn't, it's not.

I don't see how that's smoke and mirrors.
Last edited by Dave_Mc at Nov 18, 2014,
#33
Quote by fingrpikingood
You misunderstood me. I am not saying that at all. But you are free to your opinion.

Playing with feel is honesty. It's like an orgasm. You could fake an orgasm, and you could break it down in parts, and learn all these things you need to fake, and you could practice those. But it is not genuine. You won't be able to capture the essence by faking it. It will appear a cheap knockoff. It will look like you are a poser, to me. Like you buy an expensive guitar to look like a pro, but you're not. Same thing.

If the physical things you had to learn in order to appear you had an orgasm were difficult, then you'd need to becomes strong and flexible in the required muscles, but that's it. You wouldn't have to fake the individual moves. You could just be honest, and it would be correct.

A true professional performance is not just practicing moves. That's how you get that whole shredding through exercises stuff. It's not art to me.

That's why to me ok, to me, it makes more sense to spend effort working on other stuff. The details of expression should come naturally. That's why it sounds professional, to me. It's not because they practiced some skill that appears professional. Art is not that way to me. Vibrato does not equal professional sounding to me. Expression sounds professional to me. Vibrato is a natural by product of expression. Faking vibrato is not expression. The two are not the same, and I find them distinguishable.

You are free to hold your own opinion. That's just my opinion. I'm not gonna make contradictions in my own opinion, so, obviously, the illusion of professional, and truly professional is different to me. Apparently it is not to you. So you have your philosophy and I have mine.

What you can't say though, is that vibrato doesn't come naturally, because here I am. Maybe it comes naturally to some people and not to others though, but my philosophy takes that into account.


... You are equating a response to physical and psychological stimulus and a learned skill. I hope you see where you're going wrong here.

I also seriously disagree with this bizarre notion you seem to be implying that somehow control is equal to fakery in this context. What I am advocating isn't faking anything at all, it's simply practising such that you gain control over what you're doing, this isn't faking it at all, not that I believe for a second you can tell the difference anyway, based on sound.

Maybe it comes naturally to some people and not to others though, but my philosophy takes that into account.


Wait, what? Your philosophy of "don't practice it and rest assured it will come in time"? How does that account for people to whom it doesn't come naturally? It seems to me that what you're saying will leave these people completely without a hope just because they don't develop a completely unnatural skill just by playing the guitar.
#34
Quote by Dave_Mc
^ I never said vibrato absoutely couldn't come naturally. It may well do, for some people. But it's not guaranteed to.

I agree with you (on that point at least), I don't have much time for people who say crap like "It's impossible to do X unless you practise Y for hours." Because as you said, your own personal experience may trump that. For example, some people say you *will* have bad timing if you don't use a metronome. Bullshit. Some people just have good timing. I've never used a metronome in my life, I'm just lucky that my timing seems (I think ) to be pretty good.

But that's not the same (at all) as saying that you can't practise it, or that you shouldn't practise it. If someone comes in and says they're struggling with timing, I don't say, "Uh, timing should come naturally!". I say, "Go and get a metronome (or at least play along to backing tracks etc.) and practise your timing."



I didn't say you did. You are replying to a post I made to someone else as though I was commenting on what you said.

Of course, if you have trouble with vibrato, and you want some, go practise that. I'm just saying, first get actually good at guitar. Don't practise some detail first. He has trouble even playing with his thumb behind the neck.

My advice to him, was not to worry about vibrato. To prioritize other stuff first. Then, later, if everything is easy and he still doesn't have vibrato, then practise some vibrato.

It doesn't make sense to me to practice a detail, a frill which is associated with high calibre guitarists, if you don't even have the other simple basics down well.

It's the order that you do things that matters. He may never need to practice vibrato. It is impossible for me to tell at his skill level. He's very much a beginner.

Learn barre chords, chord shapes, the major scale, I-ii-iii-IV-V-vi-viio and some of that first. Once you get good at that, once it becomes easy, if you can't do vibrato and you want vibrato then practice it.

"If it sounds good, then it is good" is relative. If you don't have a good ear, you might be way off key and it sounds good to you, that doesn't mean it is good. Same for rhythm and feel. There are all kinds of levels. What's important is that you have fun at the end of the day, so who cares, but just because you practice vibrato, and you are happy with that, that doesn't mean you sound professional, to me. You might convince some number of people that way though.

It's just my advice, and my view. He can do whatever he wants. I don't care. I care about me being good at guitar. He might not be like me anyway. But either way, it makes sense to me, to practice this technique later on, and you have some odds that you will never have to. It's a logically stronger philosophy for efficiency. But you don't always have to be as efficient as possible. Do what you want, I don't care.
#35
Quote by Zaphod_Beeblebr


Wait, what? Your philosophy of "don't practice it and rest assured it will come in time"? How does that account for people to whom it doesn't come naturally? It seems to me that what you're saying will leave these people completely without a hope just because they don't develop a completely unnatural skill just by playing the guitar.


you keep missing the point. You're arguing with yourself. I never said that. I said leave it. It will come in time. If you get skilled and it hasn't come, then practice it. It's a natural skill for me.

I have no intention on arguing with you. We don't have to think the same way. You have your philosophy, and I have mine. I don't think you're in much of a position to say what I can or can't tell. If you think so differently, maybe your experience/perception of music differs from mine.
Last edited by fingrpikingood at Nov 18, 2014,
#36
I don't agree that vibrato is just a detail. It's pretty important (at least it is to me).

Fair enough, maybe you didn't say that exact thing to me, but if you make a point I assume that's what you think, not that you're saying different things to different people.
#37
Quote by Dave_Mc
I don't agree that vibrato is just a detail. It's pretty important (at least it is to me).



I wasn't saying it's not important, I said that it is a detail. Details are important. Like I said earlier. It's a prioritization thing. The logical order of operations in the study of music and in muscle/dexterity development. Everything you do on your guitar is important.

Fair enough, maybe you didn't say that exact thing to me, but if you make a point I assume that's what you think, not that you're saying different things to different people.
I was referring to this:

Quote by Dave_Mc
^ I never said vibrato absoutely couldn't come naturally. It may well do, for some people. But it's not guaranteed to.



Which was a response to something I wrote to someone else entirely. Idk why you think I was implying something you said when I was talking to someone else.

But whatever, I'm done with this thread.
#38
I just figured that when you were arguing with someone else who was making similar points to me (and who seemed to be in agreement with me) that if you said that to them that it was aimed at my argument too. Fair enough if you didn't mean it to me.

Saying, "it's a detail" very strongly implies, at least to me, that it's a pretty minor thing.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/detail?s=t

" noun
1.
an individual or minute part; an item or particular.
2.
particulars collectively; minutiae.
3.
attention to or treatment of a subject in individual or minute parts:
to postpone detail and concentrate on a subject as a whole.
4.
intricate, finely wrought decoration.
5.
Engineering, detail drawing.
6.
any small section of a larger structure or whole, considered as a unit."

(My bolding)

Fair enough if you didn't mean it like that, but you can hardly blame me for going by the dictionary definition of a word.
#39
Wow, look what i've done, there's too many arguments in here, some which i do not even understand; I should let go of guitar practice and gain some english skills!

Anyway, once again thanks for all the help guys, I've improved since last time i posted on my topic.
the proper way(s) of vibrato on electric guitar was All i was looking for, which i couldn't figure out by watching youtube vids, hence creating this topic.

Thanks!
Cheers
Hadi