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#1
Quote by Owen Grieve
When people say they have a 'neutral' political stance, what that usually means is that they've adopted a centrist position within their particular political environment. It's a kind of local neutrality, perhaps, but not a true global neutrality; a position between two, more extreme camps, not an absense of position. People who believe they have no political ideology are in fact so fully immersed in their ideological environment that they don't even realise it's there - the defining features of their political views seem so obvious to them that they assume they are some kind of natural standard. To reiterate: There are no natural standards.

http://midnightresistance.co.uk/articles/game-design-always-political-im-not-even-exaggerating-here

that article is about video games if you're into reading about video games.

thoughts? especially on bolded
#2
I think the current topic and ensuing discussion over this topic contains some valid points
#5
I don't have an opinion on the bolded cause I don't really follow any ideology that would give me opinions on it.
#6
Sure, I have a thought. When voting locally or nationally, why should I care about the global placement of my more-or-less neutral standpoint?

Why should my political standings be applied globally, where they are surely to be muddled, misunderstood, and irrelevant?
#7
Quote by Dreadnought
Sure, I have a thought. When voting locally or nationally, why should I care about the global placement of my more-or-less neutral standpoint?

Why should my political standings be applied globally, where they are surely to be muddled, misunderstood, and irrelevant?


the article does not argue that a more-or-less neutral standpoint is somehow inferior to any other, but that it is a standpoint nonetheless. this is important when discussing politics in art. probably not important when you're out voting.
#8
Words, words words words words. Words words words words words words words words words words words-words-words words words?


Words words words words words words words words, words words words words words words words, words, words words?
Last edited by eGraham at Nov 15, 2014,
#10
so basically people are more inclined to be aligned with Lawful Neutral or Chaotic Neutral as opposed to Pure Neutral
#11
Quote by behind_you
Can I just play games without thinking about anything more than just playing games


yes totally
#12
Quote by behind_you
Can I just play games without thinking about anything more than just playing games

word
#13
Quote by Eastwinn
the article does not argue that a more-or-less neutral standpoint is somehow inferior to any other, but that it is a standpoint nonetheless. this is important when discussing politics in art. probably not important when you're out voting.


I agree with the importance of a "neutral" standpoint in regards to specific topics and circumstances, but as far as major/party alignments are concerned, there is no such thing as "neutral."

#14
In art terms, you cannot separate politics from it. People have tried (formalism) and failed hilariously badly. Like so badly the entire movement was utterly illogical and scattered like dust in a hurricane.

It also depends on what sort of neutrality we are discussing and what context. If one is neutral in the context of discussion of oppression of marginalised groups, they enable the oppressor. In simpler terms (though this still applies strongly to things as reductionist as "left vs right"), neutrality can be either apathy or a centrist approach as discussed above.

Quote by behind_you
Can I just play games without thinking about anything more than just playing games
Of course. The issue is that many people refuse to acknowledge the status of games as an art form and a potentially serious one at that, especially socioculturally. The problem that has arisen is the apologism and denial of the social issues and philosophical perspectives that go into it. Game designers are a lot more worldly knowledgeable than just COOL GAME FUN A A B A UP A B yet so many sadly discredit them despite their drawing on many different art movements to form what is produced today

That said sometimes you have to stop reading killscreen and mindlessly kill zombies so
Last edited by Banjocal at Nov 15, 2014,
#15
yeah see my problem with that is people did engage with that silly person Anita Sarkesian (or whoever you spell it) and people jut wrote them off as misogynists and sexist shitlord human trash. when its clear she's an idiot and has never played any of the fvcking games she reviews

that's all I'm going to add, the article is trying to be way too clever and I don't really see its point, other than games publishers are trying to sell games?
#16
no kidding

do fish realize theyre swimming in water? nah

the sheeple dont know theyre grazing on the pasture either or some similar analogy you get the point
#17
Quote by Bladez22
yeah see my problem with that is people did engage with that silly person Anita Sarkesian (or whoever you spell it) and people jut wrote them off as misogynists and sexist shitlord human trash. when its clear she's an idiot and has never played any of the fvcking games she reviews

that's all I'm going to add, the article is trying to be way too clever and I don't really see its point, other than games publishers are trying to sell games?


the article is a response to the ubiquitous assertion that games are not political or are rarely political. this comes up just about anytime someone tries to analyze a game in a political context. in fact it's a frequent counter argument to literally anything sarkeesian says. meanwhile the same people bang on about how games should be taken seriously as an art form. further proof that the gaming community is infected with crybaby men? yes i think so.

also seriously with the 'human trash' come on
#18
Quote by Eastwinn
the article is a response to the ubiquitous assertion that games are not political or are rarely political. this comes up just about anytime someone tries to analyze a game in a political context. in fact it's a frequent counter argument to literally anything sarkeesian says. meanwhile the same people bang on about how games should be taken seriously as an art form. further proof that the gaming community is infected with crybaby men? yes i think so.

also seriously with the 'human trash' come on


I got called human trash on tumblr for calling people out on being stupid about games lol, i then deleted my blog because it just wasn't worth the hassle for me

but I dunno, there's so many buzzwords and mud slinging from both sides. I'm not going to defend the FPS or similar gaming community because there's a lot of 14 year old kids who are complete assclowns. But I've heard similar arguments for years so its just kind of funny at this point. My only real beef is with Anita, because after watching 5 of her videos I can tell you now that she has no idea what she's on about

but the whole "crybaby men" thing is basically raging psychopath losers that was going around a few years back, so meh I've heard it all before and I really don't care. In the same way some feminists are stupid, some gamers are

and I couldn't really get the whole point of the article because it seems to use a lot of words to say nothing maybe I'm just not paying enough attention... its probably that actually
Last edited by Bladez22 at Nov 15, 2014,
#19
Quote by Bladez22
I got called human trash on tumblr for calling people out on being stupid about games lol, i then deleted my blog because it just wasn't worth the hassle for me


coward
#20
Quote by Dreadnought
coward


all i wanted was pictures of cats and pokemon. I didn't sign up for having to defend myself for being a "gamer", it really just wasn't worth the shit. especially since I knew who it was sending it under annon, and I thought they were cool

I've never really seen any serious games reviewer try to talk about it in a political sense? It sounds kind of silly though, I mean I stopped paying attention to games review sites years ago for being stupid so I'd have no idea
Last edited by Bladez22 at Nov 15, 2014,
#21
Quote by Bladez22
I got called human trash on tumblr for calling people out on being stupid about games lol, i then deleted my blog because it just wasn't worth the hassle for me


wow really? i need a new thing then. can't be calling people human trash if they're doing it.

Quote by Bladez22
but I dunno, there's so many buzzwords and mud slinging from both sides. I'm not going to defend the FPS or similar gaming community because there's a lot of 14 year old kids who are complete assclowns. But I've heard similar arguments for years so its just kind of funny at this point. My only real beef is with Anita, because after watching 5 of her videos I can tell you now that she has no idea what she's on about

but the whole "crybaby men" thing is basically raging psychopath losers that was going around a few years back, so meh I've heard it all before and I really don't care. In the same way some feminists are stupid, some gamers are

and I couldn't really get the whole point of the article because it seems to use a lot of words to say nothing maybe I'm just not paying enough attention... its probably that actually


i have never actually watched any of sarkeesian's videos. i was aware of her existence for a while and then i started seeing stuff about death and rape threats recently. after that i began to read (skim) some of the stuff people wrote in opposition to her. that's all i know.

crybaby men are hardly representative on the gaming community since men aren't even representative of the gaming community anymore but even as just a noisy minority their impact is massive. i think weird 14 year old feminists* can be generally ignored and occasionally parred but when crybaby video gamers start throwing around rape threats i think it's time to start talking.

*i still have not written my exposé here on weird 14 year old feminists. stay tuned.
#22
words words? words words words words words words. words words words words words words words words words words.

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*words words words words words words wórds words words words 14 words words words. words words.
#23
Quote by RylanThePotato
so basically people are more inclined to be aligned with Lawful Neutral or Chaotic Neutral as opposed to Pure Neutral


This basically sums up the entire article ok
#24
Quote by Eastwinn
wow really? i need a new thing then. can't be calling people human trash if they're doing it.


i have never actually watched any of sarkeesian's videos. i was aware of her existence for a while and then i started seeing stuff about death and rape threats recently. after that i began to read (skim) some of the stuff people wrote in opposition to her. that's all i know.

crybaby men are hardly representative on the gaming community since men aren't even representative of the gaming community anymore but even as just a noisy minority their impact is massive. i think weird 14 year old feminists* can be generally ignored and occasionally parred but when crybaby video gamers start throwing around rape threats i think it's time to start talking.

*i still have not written my exposé here on weird 14 year old feminists. stay tuned.


Yeah rape/death threats are horrid and are totally unacceptable. But people defending her always bring them up, not the countless other videos/responses that call her out on all of her bullshit. they just dismiss them all as sending the threats and therefore no worth listening to. which is as ridiculous as me not listening to you now because of those people on tumblr

but threats are a funny thing, they were sent anonymously, so without being a dick, I want to point out that it could've been literally anyone sending those, even herself. I mean she never provided any real evidence, and youtube comments don't count because they've just become a parody of themselves at this point. There's no way of proving it was male gamers, and saying that there's a large portion of them sending threats is silly

I dunno, you're generally really chill about things, which is why I really do want to ask you to go and read up on this. that's if you care, I mean I do understand if you dont, but just know that the whole #gamergate thing isn't about feminism, its about the gaming media siding with bullies and telling people that they deserve to be bullied

i have no idea what the fvck is going on anymore. eastwinn, you're a cool guy. Feminists are also cool and I support what they're doing, just with one or two very minor exceptions that are not a representative of the movement as a whole. please dont yell at me
Last edited by Bladez22 at Nov 15, 2014,
#25
This kind of described me at one point, because up until I was 17 and started taking government classes and stuff, I couldn't care less about politics and considered myself neutral. I mean I still hate politics and would still identify as a centrist in the grand scheme of things but at least I've formed somewhat solid opinions.

Though whilst reading the article, I couldn't help but think, "Duh." I was a bit shocked to learn there are people that believe that politics could be left out of any kind of medium, whether it's a game or otherwise, because anyone who has had any social interaction ever is bound to have biases and every piece of media becomes affected by those biases. Forget all of that and it's still something that would be qualified on a spectrum, so there's no option for "N/A."
#26
from a fundamental perspective every expression conveys some sort of political stance: some degree of disposition towards grouping up/isolating, patronage/boycott, enablement/sabotage, pacifism/violence.

even a simple hello carries connotations about either a disposition towards grouping up vs isolating depending on how it's said.

not saying hello is expressive in of itself. depending on the context, it may mean that one has no interest in grouping up or that the group is so tightly knit that a 'hello' would sound too formal/canned.

this is really just an example of trivial politics you might encounter day to day at the office or something but the same idea applies to what you would more normally think of as politics too.

thus even expressions of political apathy such as "i have no strong feelings one way or another" convey a degree of disposition in grouping up vs isolating oneself from a political party - of enabling or sabotaging efforts in addressing any given issue.

so yeah, there's nothing that you can do, say, or not say or do which would distance yourself from the political spectra because in the end it all means something.
#28
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#29
All I need to see is the title of the article to know it's bullshit.

Explain to me how the hell Tetris is political.
#30
Quote by eGraham
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*words* word word word word

word word
#31
Quote by eGraham
words words words words words words words words words words words words: words words words words words words words/words, words/words, words/words, words/words.

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You're contradicting yourself
#32
Everything is political and requires diplomacy. If you don't believe so, get out of your basement and start jerking off in front of a stranger.
#33
Quote by Bladez22
yeah see my problem with that is people did engage with that silly person Anita Sarkesian (or whoever you spell it) and people jut wrote them off as misogynists and sexist shitlord human trash. when its clear she's an idiot and has never played any of the fvcking games she reviews

that's all I'm going to add, the article is trying to be way too clever and I don't really see its point, other than games publishers are trying to sell games?

I write about feminism in film, it's kinda my specialization. Anita Sarkeesian talks about video games and feminism in the same way, using the same terms and parameters and level of analysis, that I and everyone else that writes about feminism in media does. So she's not an idiot, she's way, way too smart to be talking about video games when the community as a whole is so resistant to the idea of academic criticism and being taken seriously. If she was applying her intellect to a media that had grown the fuck up she'd be being universally hailed as a great mind, not being subjected to the kind of attacks that force a person out of their home.
#35
Quote by necrosis1193
All I need to see is the title of the article to know it's bullshit.

Explain to me how the hell Tetris is political.


Well, you see Tetris was developed in Russia during the Cold War. The falling bricks symbolize Capitalism and as they stack up they keep consuming space until there's nothing left, and the objective is to keep the bricks in a neat orderly fashion to keep the bricks from taking up too much space representing the struggle of the working class under the bourgeoisie. Then the blue curtain symbolizes the author's deep depression and lack of will to carry on.
#36
Quote by Eastwinn
http://midnightresistance.co.uk/articles/game-design-always-political-im-not-even-exaggerating-here

that article is about video games if you're into reading about video games.

thoughts? especially on bolded


I disagree, I think some people can be entirely without a political stance, via means of ignorance.

My girlfriend for example, is studying an art degree at university right now. The only vaguely political thing she cares about is stuff like not mistreating animals. In like...2 years of going out with her she has never opted to speak about politics with me and has said she doesn't really understand or care about it, and isn't going to vote.

Maybe it's blissful ignorance right now, but her art is motivated by creating things that are nice to look at, and she is entirely ignorant of political ideologies completely.
#37
Quote by Nelshizzle
Everything is political and requires diplomacy. If you don't believe so, get out of your basement and start jerking off in front of a stranger.

Thanks to the internet, I can jerk off in front of strangers from the comfort of my own basement.
#38
On a similar point it annoys me when people say they have no interest/don't bother with ethics/morality when everyone does literally all the time.
I haven't read that article yet, but the bolded line seems pretty true.


Oh and I should probably say that I generally agree with Anita Sarkeesian. I disagree with some of her points, but that's the whole point of having a debate. She is clearly a very intelligent well researched person though.
#39


Quote by EndTheRapture51
I disagree, I think some people can be entirely without a political stance, via means of ignorance.
ya but if you asked her questions about different ideals she'd probably have a vague onion on such things which could be shoehorned into a political position

the names re just assigned to the policies which make them rly
#40
Quote by eGraham
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What a load of shit.

I'm probably done with this thread too cuz most of your attitudes have been ****ing disgusting and I don't associate myself with shit like that. Like I have zero respect for a lot of you.
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