#1
Okay, so guitarists have pushed the speed envelope, the low tuning envelope, the techniques envelope, the complicated arrangement envelope, the dissonance envelope....

Whats next, or do you think these could be pushed even further?
shred is gaudy music
Last edited by GuitarMunky at Nov 20, 2014,
#2
transcending wood and strings to achieve teflon and strings.

i swear if i had the cash i would build at least 12 guitars out of teflon
i don't know why i feel so dry
#4
I believe it is the instrument that will change somewhat in the coming future. We have already seen change in things that have to do with tuning stability and intonation of the instrument (such as the evertune bridge and true temperament frets), the sound processing with units just as the axe-fx 2 which has allowed us to be more versatile with our tones and imitate other instruments (like synth pads). I believe the next step is adding things to the guitar similar to what the synthaxe did when it was released in the 80's, different ways to produce sound from the guitar.

Off-topic, i hardly think guitarists pushed the envelope on any of those things.
Fusion and jazz musician, a fan of most music.

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#6
Quote by Eastwinn
transcending wood and strings to achieve teflon and strings.

i swear if i had the cash i would build at least 12 guitars out of teflon

aluminum tho
banned
#7
Quote by Duaneclapdrix
Hi tech integration.



Quote by Sickz
I believe it is the instrument that will change somewhat in the coming future. We have already seen change in things that have to do with tuning stability and intonation of the instrument (such as the evertune bridge and true temperament frets), the sound processing with units just as the axe-fx 2 which has allowed us to be more versatile with our tones and imitate other instruments (like synth pads). I believe the next step is adding things to the guitar similar to what the synthaxe did when it was released in the 80's, different ways to produce sound from the guitar.

Off-topic, i hardly think guitarists pushed the envelope on any of those things.

I appreciate the responses, and tend to agree about the integration of technology becoming more prevalent.

What I was getting at is though is that it's become common for guitarists to be envelope pushers as a way to draw attention to themselves. Whether it's being flashier, faster, or tuning lower, there is a competition going on.

What I'm asking is do you think we can…..


Tune any lower (what are we at now like Drop Bb or A)?

Play any faster (then say Rusty Cooley or Yngwie, or whoever you think the fastest is) ?

Play any flashier (then say MAB shredding on 2 necks at once…. or whatever you think the flashiest playing is)


If your answer is yes…. how much further can those be pushed?

and when it is impossible to play faster, flashier or lower, or whatever other aspect a person decides to push….

what then for guitar?
shred is gaudy music
#8
You forgot more strings.

Fortunately the guitar is an instrument that will be around for a long time to come. Because of it's portability, relative versatility, acoustic ability (no batteries or power source needed), affordability, and because it's easy to learn but tough to master it will remain a popular instrument for the foreseeable future.

It will evolve and new music will continue to change. But regardless of the production techniques of the future there is still (usually) a song underneath it all that can be stripped down to a singer and piano, or singer and guitar arrangement. And you can't carry your piano around with you.

As far as the guitarists need to be the centre of attention. As long as they can make good music that people love they will be there -with their guitars.

Most of that stuff you mentioned is just guitarists trying to impress, or being impressed by each other rather than just making good music.

At least that's just my opinion.

So I guess my answer is I never cared for that stuff. Maybe we will have 10 string guitars in drop F diminished being played at 342 bpm. It just makes me cringe though. I hope guitarists get over all that and it doesn't go much further.
Si
#9
In 50 years everyone will play the mac book
"The mind is everything. What you think, you become."
#10
You forgot the cost envelope. Modelling rigs, like Line6 and AxeFX are pushing to provide the tone of many classic expensive rigs but at a reduced cost (and in a neatly integrated package).

They are also pushing the volume envelope. The low end of it, that is. The time of walls of 4x12 is gone, and now the modelling gear is trying to give the tone of loud, overdriven tubes but at headphones volume.

So there are volume, size and practicality envelopes being pushed, and pushed hard.
Last edited by innovine at Nov 21, 2014,
#12
Quote by 20Tigers
You forgot more strings.


oh, I didn't forget. I just singled out a couple of things to make the point, but yeah more strings is part of it.


Quote by 20Tigers



Most of that stuff you mentioned is just guitarists trying to impress, or being impressed by each other rather than just making good music.

At least that's just my opinion.


I agree, and this was an answer I was hoping to see….


Quote by 20Tigers

So I guess my answer is I never cared for that stuff. Maybe we will have 10 string guitars in drop F diminished being played at 342 bpm. It just makes me cringe though. I hope guitarists get over all that and it doesn't go much further.


Me too, and my point is that eventually they would have to.


Quote by MapOfYourHead
microtonality is the future


Oh it could be I guess, though it isn't really an envelope to be pushed. Though I'm sure some pretentious posers could compete over how microtonal they are.


Quote by innovine
You forgot the cost envelope. Modelling rigs, like Line6 and AxeFX are pushing to provide the tone of many classic expensive rigs but at a reduced cost (and in a neatly integrated package).

They are also pushing the volume envelope. The low end of it, that is. The time of walls of 4x12 is gone, and now the modelling gear is trying to give the tone of loud, overdriven tubes but at headphones volume.

So there are volume, size and practicality envelopes being pushed, and pushed hard.



Na, I didn't forget it…. it's just not at all what I'm talking about, but it is a good topic for another thread.

I will say though, that modeling has come along way, but as a person that uses it regularly, I have to say that I still prefer the real thing. It still sounds noticeably and considerably better to me in most cases. Eventually that may change (maybe not though). I do feel like things will go more and more that direction whether I like it or not, so plan to hang on to all of my tube amps and analog pedals
shred is gaudy music
Last edited by GuitarMunky at Nov 21, 2014,
#13
Quote by GuitarMunky
Oh it could be I guess, though it isn't really an envelope to be pushed. Though I'm sure some pretentious posers could compete over how microtonal they are.


There's using it effectively, and abusing it effectively. Saying that composers can only compete over how microtonal they are is like saying guitarists can only compete by showing how fast they can play.

Microtonality is one of the last great forefronts yet to be merged with popular music in any consistent way. Bridging that gap is one of the hardest and most important envelopes you can push.
#14
So if I understand, by envelope you mean an aspect of guitar or guitar playing that can be quantified as a form of competition? Because when I think of envelope I think of things like map and Duane said in microtonality or technology integration (or like adsr lol). But those really apply to all of popular music not just guitar playing I guess. I don't really get what you're talking about I guess. Like why it matters what the next method of measuring guitar dicks is.
#15
Quote by MapOfYourHead
There's using it effectively, and abusing it effectively. Saying that composers can only compete over how microtonal they are is like saying guitarists can only compete by showing how fast they can play..


Where did I say "can only compete over how microtonal they are"?


Quote by MapOfYourHead

Microtonality is one of the last great forefronts yet to be merged with popular music in any consistent way. Bridging that gap is one of the hardest and most important envelopes you can push.


I appreciate your opinion.


Quote by jazz_rock_feel
So if I understand, by envelope you mean an aspect of guitar or guitar playing that can be quantified as a form of competition?

yep


Quote by jazz_rock_feel

Because when I think of envelope I think of things like map and Duane said in microtonality or technology integration (or like adsr lol).


that's great, but you know it's not what I was talking about.


Quote by jazz_rock_feel

don't really get what you're talking about I guess. Like why it matters what the next method of measuring guitar dicks is.


It matters, because once people get over measuring themselves maybe they could do something else with music.
shred is gaudy music
Last edited by GuitarMunky at Nov 21, 2014,
#16
Quote by GuitarMunky
Where did I say "can only compete over how microtonal they are"?


You implied it by saying there is no envelope for microtonaity to push, and then saying that "Though I'm sure some pretentious posers could compete over how microtonal they are."

If you don't want people to take it like that, then say what you actually mean.


that's great, but you know it's not what I was talking about.


So this thread is pointless then?

k



It matters, because once people get over measuring themselves maybe they could do something else with music.


Maybe making threads based solely on guitarist's measuring themselves, under the guise of "pushing-envelopes", is counter-productive that, no....or?

lol
#17
Quote by MapOfYourHead
You implied it by saying there is no envelope for microtonaity to push, and then saying that "Though I'm sure some pretentious posers could compete over how microtonal they are."


I did not say that.

Quote by MapOfYourHead

If you don't want people to take it like that, then say what you actually mean.



I did, just learn to read and comprehend.


Quote by MapOfYourHead


Maybe making threads based solely on guitarist's measuring themselves, under the guise of "pushing-envelopes", is counter-productive that, no....or?

lol


You have the choice to not post in threads that you think are pointless.
shred is gaudy music
Last edited by GuitarMunky at Nov 21, 2014,
#18
Quote by GuitarMunky
I did not say that.


k...

Oh it could be I guess, though it isn't really an envelope to be pushed. Though I'm sure some pretentious posers could compete over how microtonal they are.



You have the choice to not post in threads that you think are pointless.


But then who will point out its pointlessness?
#19
Quote by MapOfYourHead
k...



In your quote you'll notice that I did not say that there is "no envelope for microtonality to push" (your wording), but rather that microtonality is not an envelope to push. I say this because I'm talking about guitar playing, and while there are "microtonal guitars", I consider that a different instrument.

Certainly microtonal guitars, and microtonal music could become more popular, but it's not what I'm talking about. Could be another thread though.


Quote by MapOfYourHead


But then who will point out its pointlessness?


Oh there was a point. 20 tigers got it.

do you think your the only troll on the internet?
shred is gaudy music
Last edited by GuitarMunky at Nov 21, 2014,
#21
Quote by MapOfYourHead
I don't think you know what a troll is


actually I do

Quote by MapOfYourHead

Microtonailty can be achieved with a standard guitar.


Is that what you do? play microtonally on your standard guitar? I'm not saying you can't, but I would like to hear a sample of you doing that.
shred is gaudy music
#22
The next envelope/breakthrough would be if GuitarMunky developed a sense of humor.

...modes and scales are still useless.


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#23
Quote by Xiaoxi
The next envelope/breakthrough would be if GuitarMunky developed a sense of humor.


shred is gaudy music
#24
I'm trying to think of a way to make this thread have a purpose but it's impossible. You don't like the way a subset of guitarists approach music and hope that they start approaching it the way you do.

I think your sig pretty much sums up what you were looking for in this thread.
#25
Moving farther away from dad rock influence.

Quote by 20Tigers
Fortunately the guitar is an instrument that will be around for a long time to come. Because of it's portability, relative versatility, acoustic ability (no batteries or power source needed), affordability, and because it's easy to learn but tough to master it will remain a popular instrument for the foreseeable future.


That's what they said about the lute. And the viol. And the cittern. And the English guitar. And the mandolin. And the tenor banjo. And a ton of other string instruments that have been popular over the years.
There's no such thing; there never was. Where I am going you cannot follow me now.
#26
Personally, I hope that there's none to be pushed. Furthermore, you're begging the question that the envelope should be pushed. In my opinion (as the evolution of music is a result of what came before it), we are well overdo for a return to the basic, three-chords-and-the-truth rock, in contrast to this flood of "blackened technical drone doom progressive sludge extreme death djentcore" (exaggeration, but you get my point) that we've been facing for the last few years. Rock needs to be accessible if it is to survive. Too much of the material today is either too light to be considered rock, or too heavy to have considerable appeal. I honestly don't mean to bash heavy metal (and actually I've recently gotten into Black Sabbath a bit), but low tunings, technicality, arrangement complexity, speed, and even song length- these should all be a means to an end (musicianship), and not ends in themselves.

Music should be music, not a ****ing contest.
Last edited by Jake P at Nov 21, 2014,
#27
Three and four chord songwriters already far outsell shreddy metal - what kind of return are you hoping for?
#28
but low tunings, technicality, arrangement complexity, speed, and even song length- these should all be a means to an end (musicianship), and not ends in themselves.

Music should be music, not a ****ing contest.

A) Who are you to decide that those things are only being used for their own sake?
B) Even if they are, what is wrong with that? Just because you don't like it?
There's no such thing; there never was. Where I am going you cannot follow me now.
#30
Quote by jazz_rock_feel
I'm trying to think of a way to make this thread have a purpose but it's impossible.



Well the purpose was to get peoples opinions on whether or not guitarists can continue to competetively push the boundaries on things like how fast they play, or how low they tune. I single those out because they are prevalent, but there are plenty of other things that this could apply to.

Quote by jazz_rock_feel

You don't like the way a subset of guitarists approach music and hope that they start approaching it the way you do.


Not exactly. I'm not asking for anyone to change their approach. There is lots of music out there to choose from, plenty of which I can enjoy.

I am questioning though, whether they will hit a brick wall at some point, and how will that effect their approach? Like will they find another aspect to push and if so what? Will they quit guitar altogether and find a new challenge? Or will they just keep getting faster, and keep tuning lower and lower?


Quote by jazz_rock_feel

I think your sig pretty much sums up what you were looking for in this thread.


That's presumptuous of you and incorrect. I was looking for what I asked for….. opinions.

And yes I do find shred to be gaudy music. Don't make the mistake of thinking that I meant " I find all fast or technically difficult music to be gaudy"….. because I don't mean that.
shred is gaudy music
#32
Igor Stravinsky said that pitch was the next frontier in music.
It's not about how 'microtonal' you are, it's about learning that a standard guitar only has a single interval that is in-tune, and that is the octave. All other intervals have been mistuned, or 'tempered', to be out of tune.
I think that having 36 or more pitches per octave available is pushing the envelope. Certainly if adding an extra low-tuned string is pushing it, then adding new pitches that greatly increase the options for consonance and dissonance is too.
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#34
Apple iGuitars, they're just like every other guitar ever, but the push the envelope cause of the logo.