#1
G#m F# E C# (2nd triad inversion)

e|---4---------2--------0---------------|
B|--4----------2--------0---------------|
G|--4----------3--------1---------------|
D|--6----------4--------2-------3------|
A|--6----------4--------2-------4------|
E|--4----------2--------0-------4------|

I wrote a chord progression and trying to solo behind it is a weird experience.
It seems that the 1st and the 4th chord can be played in dorian and 2nd and 3rd
chord in aeolian. Why? And can anyone explain me this chord progression in some way?
#2
This chord progression is not based on a theory. Basicly, you have a key of G# minor, you then travel through the chords until you end up with G# dorian chord. People tend to overthink stuff, this is in no way a Dorian Mode, the presence of the Dorian signature note (F) is very small at the end. My point being, this is a G# minor progression, with the creative use of the F note. To solo over this I recommend using G# pentatonic, (always works), and G# minor scale(aeolian), BUT when the last chord is comming in DON'T use the F# note! It will create dissonance in your playing, use F instead. Please, don't overthink with modes, they are a sequence of notes.
#3
Quote by Not_my_username
This chord progression is not based on a theory. Basicly, you have a key of G# minor, you then travel through the chords until you end up with G# dorian chord. People tend to overthink stuff, this is in no way a Dorian Mode, the presence of the Dorian signature note (F) is very small at the end. My point being, this is a G# minor progression, with the creative use of the F note. To solo over this I recommend using G# pentatonic, (always works), and G# minor scale(aeolian), BUT when the last chord is comming in DON'T use the F# note! It will create dissonance in your playing, use F instead. Please, don't overthink with modes, they are a sequence of notes.


Thanks, man, you made it a bit easier to understand
#4
The C# major chord is a non-diatonic chord. It's a i-VII-VI-IV progression in G# minor. The natural minor scale doesn't work over the IV chord because the chord has an E# in it and the G# minor scale has an E in it.

Not_my_username is right but I wouldn't avoid playing an F# over the C# major chord. I would avoid playing an E over it. There is no F in C# major chord - it's an E#. Playing an E over it makes it a C# minor chord and then you have both major and minor thirds. IMO that doesn't work over IV chord that well. Playing an F# over it will just be the sus4. Landing on it doesn't sound that great but you could use it as a passing note and it will sound good. If you want to think in scales, F# is part of G# dorian scale, E is not.

You could play either G# minor or G# dorian over the G#m chord. It doesn't matter because the chord doesn't have a sixth in it (and the only note that makes G# minor and dorian scales different is the sixth). It's up to you which sound you prefer. Both of them will work. Over the F# major chord you could also play both G# natural minor or dorian. Which of them you choose to play makes the F# major chord either a dominant 7th or a major 7th chord (F# A# C# E or F# A# C# E#). It again depends on the sound you are after. Over E major G# dorian doesn't work because the E# note in G# dorian will clash with the root note of the E major chord. And as I said, G# natural minor will not work over the C# major chord. It's the same reason as why G# dorian doesn't work over E major chord. C# major chord has an E# in it, G# minor scale has an E in it.

Just look at the chord tones and you'll figure out what notes will work over the chords. G#m, F# and E are all part of G# minor. C# major is not. It is a borrowed chord.

G# minor pentatonic will work over all chords pretty well.

@Not_my_username:

Why do you think this chord progression is not based on theory? What kind of chord progressions are based on theory?

This is just using a non-diatonic chord. Major 6th is one of the most common accidentals in a minor key.
Quote by AlanHB
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Last edited by MaggaraMarine at Nov 29, 2014,
#5
I meant the theory he presented,(about modes). I don't know a lot of theory, I trust my ear. I mostly believe in target notes: Those are the only thing that matters when wanting to create a specific feel in your playing. Playing something outside of the scale WONT change the key in my opinion. When I do use theory, I like to 'travel' through my chords from scale to scale, or easier mode to mode. For example I could create a chord prog that would start as specific mode, then through the common notes of the modes(Like dorian and aeolian share 6 notes), i go to another then to the starting one again. I am in no way an expert, I collect info from here and there. I just mentioned my approach to soloing (basicly songwriting but it is pretty much the same to me).
#6
^ Yeah. I agree with you. I just wanted to know what you meant with it.
Quote by AlanHB
Just remember that there are no boring scales, just boring players.

Gear

Bach Stradivarius 37G
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Fender Dimension Bass
Hartke HyDrive 210c
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#7
Hey Maggara, just wondering: You seemed to make it a point that the E# in the C# major chord was not an F at all. Why can't we call the E# in the C# major chord an F?

Is that just because we already have an F# in the key of BMaj/G#min and we're trying to avoid repeated notes? It seems like since it's a non-diatonic note, and we already also have an E in that key as well, F or E# would work. Or is it because to get the major triad we're sharping the b3 (E) in the chord, and so we would just tack a # onto it?

Sorry, I'm still getting a grasp on formal theory (I would have certainly called it an 'F'). I come from a more 'self-taught' background on all of this and I'm still getting used to all the semantics involved.
#8
You would call it an E# rather than an F because there's already an F(#) in the scale. You want every scale (if it's using 8 notes) to look like A B C D E F G with various sharps or flats thrown in. If you already have an E in the scale you'd call it an F rather than an E# for the same reason. A lot of theory rules are based simply in making the notes easier to read once you have an understanding.
#10
Quote by Not_my_username
I meant the theory he presented,(about modes).

Honestly, for something like this, it isn't about modes. It's about keys and non-diatonic chords. This isn't modal.

You can, of course, play as Maggara suggested. But using a scale that is named after a mode doesn't make this modal.
#11
I see it as this: The first 3 chords follow a natural G# minor progression downwards. That C# major thrown in at the end adds a bit of flair. This is because if you were to follow the G# minor (or B major) progression with no accidentals, that C# major would be a C# minor.

The triad makeup of the C# major chord is C#, F, and G#. The F is right between the F# and the E of the B major scale, the 5th and 4th intervals, respectively. Adding in such a chord in between the two natural 5th and 4th chords can give a sense of descending or ascending (4th to 5th) that can't be achieved by staying inside the natural scale. The chord involving the note has to be built upon the 2nd note in a major scale, the chord itself being major instead of the natural minor tonality.

Staying in major tonality for this case, the major 2nd chord is in between the 4th and the 6th. The C# major connects to the E major chord through the G# note, and could be connected even more by using C#7. It doesn't connect very well to the G# minor chord after, but that's for you playing to connect. G# blues (minor, pentatonic, etc) works up until you get to the C# major chord, then you should switch to G# dorian (or at least emphasize the accidental F note for coloration).
Last edited by Will Lane at Nov 29, 2014,
#12
Quote by billytalent77
You would call it an E# rather than an F because there's already an F(#) in the scale. You want every scale (if it's using 8 notes) to look like A B C D E F G with various sharps or flats thrown in. If you already have an E in the scale you'd call it an F rather than an E# for the same reason. A lot of theory rules are based simply in making the notes easier to read once you have an understanding.


That's where I see the discrepancy, and why I'm confused.

The song is in the Key of G#min

The diatonic notes of G#min are [G#, A#, B, C#, D#, E, F#]. In the example, the chord C#m (C#,E,G#) is changed to C# (C#,E#,G#).

So my question is why couldn't we call it F? We have an E and an F# in the original scale, so adding in the new note screws it up either way:
[G#, A#, B, C#, D#, E, E#, F#] or [G#, A#, B, C#, D#, E, F, F#].

I guess it makes more sense to not use a flattened 7th but rather a sharpened 6th in terms of how we construct the chord from the scale, but in terms of keeping only sharps within the scale, it doesn't seem to matter.

I guess I kinda answered my own question, but it confused the hell out of me at first
#14
Quote by jazz_rock_feel
Which you use depends on the chord. A C# major chord is spelt with an E#.

technically, spelt is a type of wheat and spelled is spelled as spelled
it's all just coming back
it's all coming back

it's all coming back to me
#17
Quote by mjones1992
That's where I see the discrepancy, and why I'm confused.

The song is in the Key of G#min

The diatonic notes of G#min are [G#, A#, B, C#, D#, E, F#]. In the example, the chord C#m (C#,E,G#) is changed to C# (C#,E#,G#).

So my question is why couldn't we call it F? We have an E and an F# in the original scale, so adding in the new note screws it up either way:
[G#, A#, B, C#, D#, E, E#, F#] or [G#, A#, B, C#, D#, E, F, F#].

I guess it makes more sense to not use a flattened 7th but rather a sharpened 6th in terms of how we construct the chord from the scale, but in terms of keeping only sharps within the scale, it doesn't seem to matter.

I guess I kinda answered my own question, but it confused the hell out of me at first

It's because of the C# major chord. It doesn't have an F note. And if you play over C# major chord, the note you play over it is an E#. That's because of the note's function. It is the third of the C# major chord. It is also the major 6th of the scale. It sounds like a major 6th, not a diminished 7th, and that's why it's called an E#, not an F. F note in the key of G# minor would be a diminished 7th.

Let's transpose the same chord progression to another key. Let's take the key of A minor. The chord progression would be Am-G-F-D. If you played the same notes over that progression, I bet you wouldn't call it a Gb, you would call it a F#. Or let's take E minor. In that case the progression would be Em-D-C-A. You wouldn't call the C# a Db.

But yeah, it's all about the function of the note. There's a third between C# and E#. There's a fourth between C# and F. Yes, they are enharmonic but their function is different. As I said, in the key of G# minor E# is the major 6th (that also appears in the G# dorian scale), F is the diminished 7th.

It would also be stupid to call the note an F because of the chord it is played over. The chord already has an E# in it. So calling it an F would make no sense. F is not a chord tone. It would also be confusing for sheet music readers.

And yeah, in a diatonic scale there can't be two F's (F and F#). A diatonic scale always has A, B, C, D, E, F and G notes in it (natural, sharpened or flattened).
Quote by AlanHB
Just remember that there are no boring scales, just boring players.

Gear

Bach Stradivarius 37G
Charvel So Cal
Fender Dimension Bass
Hartke HyDrive 210c
Ibanez BL70
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Yamaha FG720S-12
Yamaha P115
#18
Quote by MaggaraMarine
It's because of the C# major chord. It doesn't have an F note. And if you play over C# major chord, the note you play over it is an E#. That's because of the note's function. It is the third of the C# major chord. It is also the major 6th of the scale. It sounds like a major 6th, not a diminished 7th, and that's why it's called an E#, not an F. F note in the key of G# minor would be a diminished 7th.

Let's transpose the same chord progression to another key. Let's take the key of A minor. The chord progression would be Am-G-F-D. If you played the same notes over that progression, I bet you wouldn't call it a Gb, you would call it a F#. Or let's take E minor. In that case the progression would be Em-D-C-A. You wouldn't call the C# a Db.

But yeah, it's all about the function of the note. There's a third between C# and E#. There's a fourth between C# and F. Yes, they are enharmonic but their function is different. As I said, in the key of G# minor E# is the major 6th (that also appears in the G# dorian scale), F is the diminished 7th.

It would also be stupid to call the note an F because of the chord it is played over. The chord already has an E# in it. So calling it an F would make no sense. F is not a chord tone. It would also be confusing for sheet music readers.

And yeah, in a diatonic scale there can't be two F's (F and F#). A diatonic scale always has A, B, C, D, E, F and G notes in it (natural, sharpened or flattened).


Ah. Makes sense now. Thanks
#19
the way i think about it is the progression is in B major basically but with tonal centerin G#minor of course. So the progression to me is a vi - v - iv - ii7. Pretty simple, so the only thing i really have to pay attention to thats out of the ordinary, is to play the F over the ii7 chord, since its the third of it which defines this chord. all very simple
#20
^^^ So the way you think about this progression is that it's in two different keys and when explaining this using Roman numerals it lacks a tonic.

That's not simple.

It's an i - VII - VI - IV progression in in G# minor.
And no, Guitar Hero will not help. Even on expert. Really.
Soundcloud
#21
G#minor and Bmajor for me are the same key just different Tonal centers within that key.
Like if the progression resolves to Bmajor then the Tonal center is the I and vice versa.
The tonic in this progression to me is the Vi which it starts on.
Im not advertising this method or point of view to anyone or saying its useful in notation.
its just a way of looking at it that ive learned to appreciate.
#22
But it's incorrect, if you wish to use those specific terms. Why use the words "key" and "tonal center" and subscribe to Roman numeral notation if you aren't going to use the same definitions and approach as everyone else who uses those terms?

The tonal center is ALWAYS the I or i. The key is named after the tonal center.
And no, Guitar Hero will not help. Even on expert. Really.
Soundcloud
#23
Quote by Ignore
the way i think about it is the progression is in B major basically but with tonal centerin G#minor of course. So the progression to me is a vi - v - iv - ii7. Pretty simple, so the only thing i really have to pay attention to thats out of the ordinary, is to play the F over the ii7 chord, since its the third of it which defines this chord. all very simple

That makes absolutely no sense. And it's not in Bmajor, since that's not the tonic. The key (aka "tonal center") is G#minor, because that's what the tonic is. It resolves to G#minor.

Also, this isn't a "it works for me" situation, rather it's a "you're gonna confuse the shit out of everyone else because you're using common terms incorrectly" situation.