#1
You guys know I'm interested in the Xavian Scale but could someone please analyze the birth sequence of Steve Vai's "Deep Down into the Pain" (I'm not that great at analyzing songs but especially ones this weird). Is there a way to get a somewhat similar sound with a normal guitar and 12-tone harmony? I know three of the equivalent notes are "E F A#/Bb". Also I'm mostly asking about the first question. I should've made a topic like this a long time ago.

Here's Steve Vai's "Deep Down Into the Pain" and I believe the sequence starts at either 5:58.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3EcqBpNQNg0
"I don't know what you're trying to suggest. There's no shame in taking what you need to hold your position!"

Super Buu (DBZ) on assimilation (it could also apply to blues guitar and guitar soloing in general).
#2
I vote that RonaldPoe makes no more threads about weird scales/odd chord progressions or other nonsense.

Who is with me?

OT: If you're not good at analyzing songs, then start with something simple and keep analyzing stuff until you're able to analyze complex stuff like this.
Last edited by crazysam23_Atax at Dec 2, 2014,
#4
This is actually going to be my last thread about this sort of thing. If I ever do another thread of this type, it's going to be different. I'm just trying to tie up some loose ends and discover the secret to the Xavian scale once and for all. This really is my last thread about this.
"I don't know what you're trying to suggest. There's no shame in taking what you need to hold your position!"

Super Buu (DBZ) on assimilation (it could also apply to blues guitar and guitar soloing in general).
#5
Your obsession with 'exotic' sounds has much more to do with timbre, rhythm, and articulation than with pitch and scale per-se.


As for actually achieving the 'sound' you are after on a guitar: you will not likely get the timbre, but the rhythms, articulations, and even the pitches can be done with a bit of meddling. There is no such thing as musical analysis beyond recording and transcription.


Edit: after just reading a few web pages, the Xavian scale itself is just a subset of 16-tone equal temperament. If you understand tuning then you will understand that this in fact can be done on a regular 12-tone guitar, albeit with considerable effort and toil.
You might could use some double modals.
Last edited by AETHERA at Dec 2, 2014,
#6
Aethera, thank you. I have a question for you, how would I begin to get this tonality and figure out the notes and articulation? I just would like some pointers.
"I don't know what you're trying to suggest. There's no shame in taking what you need to hold your position!"

Super Buu (DBZ) on assimilation (it could also apply to blues guitar and guitar soloing in general).
#7
With a 12 tone guitar it will be really hard to play 16 tone music. You would need to have a really good ear - you would have to get your ears used to the 16 TET. With a fretless guitar it could be possible. But as I said, it would require a really good ear and getting used to the sound of the Xavian scale. You could of course build a 16 tone guitar and experiment with it.
Quote by AlanHB
Just remember that there are no boring scales, just boring players.

Gear

Bach Stradivarius 37G
Charvel So Cal
Fender Dimension Bass
Hartke HyDrive 210c
Ibanez BL70
Laney VC30
Tokai TB48
Yamaha FG720S-12
Yamaha P115
#8
As best I understand, Vai used a custom 16-fret-per-octave JEM for generating his Xavian scale music. Also, as long as you have a tuner that gives you deviation in cents, you can get away with tuning a guitar in a way that would give you access to all pitches of a 16-tone equal temperament, plus a few to spare.


Ronald: before I can really offer any decent direction, I think it would be best if you listen and respond to two pieces of music: though I encourage you to respond as fully as you can, you may focus on whether these pieces approximate the 'tonality' or 'sound' that you are enamored with:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZWZAN8X2Ct4

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fhiv-Fju_Sk


Looking forward to hearing your thoughts.
You might could use some double modals.
#9
Okay, I am interested in Indian Raga but never figured out the secrets. The first one isn't really the sound I'm looking for but the second one is. It's similar to the Xavian scale while remaining distinct and eastern. The player also has a sweet vibrato (Zakk Wylde would be humbled) and good phrasing. I wonder that kind of scale/Raga he's using and tips on that type of articulation.

The first one though isn't bad and the microtones are nice. It also sounds a little autotuned but maybe that's my imagination. I once had a friend from India (his name was Ryan) but he moved. As he'd say "Namaste."
"I don't know what you're trying to suggest. There's no shame in taking what you need to hold your position!"

Super Buu (DBZ) on assimilation (it could also apply to blues guitar and guitar soloing in general).
#10
Copy.

The second piece is a composition in what is known as Natabhairavi. For starters, the basic pitches employed in Natabhairavi are approximately those of the natural minor scale of Western music. Plenty of folk, heavy metal, dance, and electronic pieces also use the natural minor scale exclusively. Therefore, the notes alone do not make the sound. However, you identified that correctly in pointing out the various embellishments employed by Sri Vallideva over the course of his composition. For brevity's sake, suffice that raga-based music of this type employs certain rules and patterns for the approach and playing of the various main swarams in the raga.

The key point, though, is that these embellishments and rules can be more or less compacted under the title of 'articulation'. What's more, is that these embellishments are 100% accessible on your standard guitar. The trick of it is to use bends. String bends are not bound to discrete pitches, and various blues tropes employ 'out-of-tune', or flat bends which do not reach a note in the prevailing equal temperament. You can, within reason, access any pitch up to, say a minor third from your starting pitch through string bending on a guitar: this also means you have access to microtones. Therefore, it is entirely possible to emulate Sri Vallideva's composition on a normal electric guitar, at least by relative pitches.

There is another reason that bending is a viable technique for emulating raga articulations, and that basically has to do with their melismatic/legato quality. As you heard, the articulations played by Sri Vallideva were primarily legato -- or perhaps it is better said that they were not discrete separate microtones played in sequence via microtonal fretting or something of the sort, but rather continuums whose relative maximums and minimums through time were placed as desired. In other words, raga articulations of the sort heard in my examples tend to be rapid, narrow glissando. A rapid, narrow glissando on the guitar is, as you may surmise, a string bend.
You might could use some double modals.
#11
I get what you're saying completely. I kinda hear the key as being around Em but I'm sure there's an embellishment at the second degree and another one (possibly 5th). You said that the scale is roughly Natural Minor right. Do you have any more tips (on either articulation or improvising Indian style)? Thanks for your advice!

Edit: I've said this before but I love the Natural Minor/Aeolian scale most out of all the modes. It's probably one of the most versatile scales out there. Voltaire, Metallica, Emperor (Norwegian Black Metal group), Megadeth, Creature Feature, Pantera, Pink Floyd, Alestorm, and this Indian musician all use it.
"I don't know what you're trying to suggest. There's no shame in taking what you need to hold your position!"

Super Buu (DBZ) on assimilation (it could also apply to blues guitar and guitar soloing in general).
Last edited by RonaldPoe at Dec 6, 2014,