#1
Hi, I know that watts can be very deceiving in terms of loudness, but I would like to know if in my situation a Hughes and Kettner Tubemeister 18 watt would be enough for me? I play in a Hardcore Punk band with aggressive vocals, distorted guitars (no clean channel) and loud drumming. A lot of the venues I play in may not have the guitar amps mic'ed, may be outdoor with capacities up to 300 people due to being DIY. Would my H&K be able to sound loud enough/cut through/not get lost/keep up with a Mesa Dual 100 watt, 8x10 bass rig, drums, and vocals? Would the H&K 36 watt be better? I am also looking into the EVH 5150 50 watt head, but I found a great deal on the H&K 18. Thanks in advance!
#2
5150 would be better if stuff is unmic'd.
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#4
I found with my H&K and others that the sound is very brittle. The 36 would probably be alright though.

Look for the 6505 combo, they should be like $500/600ish new.
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#5
No it wouldn't work and they (TM series) sound pretty bad anyway

Here is a Krank 1980 (which does hardcore just fine) for $399 I have the 20 watt version I use for practice and it is a very nice amp. And it has 80watts which is plenty
www.guitarcenter.com/Krank-Used-Krank-Nineteen-80-Tube-Guitar-Amp-Head-110624977-i4015675.gc
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#6
18w tube is enough to run with a drummer so just mic it. You will certainly have a PA for vocals so bring a SM57 and spread your guitar around. No crowd will be too large then.
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#7
Quote by Cajundaddy
18w tube is enough to run with a drummer so just mic it. You will certainly have a PA for vocals so bring a SM57 and spread your guitar around. No crowd will be too large then.

18 watts is not enough headroom for Hardcore in a band situation
He has already said he will not always be mic'd
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#8
If you're not gonna be mic'd up and there's gonna be more than 15 people you're not gonna sound good with an 100w half stack even though you'll sound loud enough.

Get the krank + a cheap cab and spend the rest in a half decent pa system, or borrow it for the nights you'll have to play where there's not a house pa until you can afford a decent one.
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#9
How many people is irrelevant, it won't keep up with the drummer.

The Laney Ironheart is a good hardcore punk amp. I wouldn't use one for real punk but for hardcore they work very well.
That Krank is a good choice too.
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#10
I'm not sure the 18 water is all tube as on few if their latest designs there are fewer tubes than usually found in classic deigns, which means that you're getting some kinda hybrid and it might not be loud enough.

I'd say look for 50 watt tube heads and up. Look at the Valveking new, some Peavey heads like 6505, 5150, XXX, JSX, Laney single channel amps (the Iommi version), maybe Carvin.
#11
It's not all tube. It has an op-amp front end. I think that the power amp is all tube though. They're a hybrid but not much as a Blackstar HT. The TM gets a lot of its gain from SS circuitry, the BS gets both gain and volume from SS trickery.
Still, they aren't that loud. I'd use one as a DI box because they're so damn small but that's it. Can't say I was very impressed by them at all. As you know, I build 18W Marshalls and so I was expecting big things from it, but a 1974X it aint.
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#12
i disagree. not much clean? so you dont need clean headroom? if the amp tone will do it, then 18 watts through teh right cab will do fine. for example, an 18 watt amp in a cab playing with eminence wizards (103 SPL) will most likely be as loud or louder than a 50 watt with other normal speakers (probably about 98 SPL).

so what cab are you using? and do you like the tone of the H&K? tone is the biggest factor along with clean headroom. are you okay with the power amp breaking up? a lot of people dont want that. response. dynamics. compression.

these are reasons to consider watts. not volume.

really, my amp scales from 7 to 50 watts and there is very very little sound differences on each setting. 7 to 50 makes a difference but its the other tonal variations that are affected more.

example:

98 SPL speaker, 50 watts
1 watt = 98
2 = 101
4= 104
8= 107
16= 110
32 = 113
up to 50 watts = somewhere around 116 decibels of volume

103 SPL speaker, 7 watts

1 watt = 103
2 = 106
4 = 109
8 = 112 decibels

so with the right speaker, a 7 watter can almost hang with a 50 watter. 4 decibels is noticable. but still. it closes the gap.

now, if the 50 watter was 1 speaker and the 7 watter has 2 or 4 of those speakers, my guess is the 7 watter appears louder.

that being said, teh 18 watter can be fine in terms of overall loudness. it really depends in the whole rig.
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Last edited by ikey_ at Dec 7, 2014,
#13
Yeah, but they don't sound good. What good is your maths now?
If it was a proper 18W'er with a boost in front of it (which is what I thought they might be initially) my opinion would be completely different. The TM18 just isn't very good. But tbh, I'm yet to hear a H&K of any size that I did like.
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Last edited by Cathbard at Dec 7, 2014,
#14
well again, if you like the tone of the amp.... thats number 1 priority.
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#15
^Trust me, I have been in Hardcore/punk bands for the last 12 years, the 18 watt TM18 will not cut it at all. You don't want power amp distortion in hardcore, you want all preamp distortion
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#16
Agreed.
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#17
Quote by Robbgnarly
You don't want power amp distortion in hardcore, you want all preamp distortion


You can't live with a little power amp distortion?
Why is it so bad?

I recorded one new punk/emo/hardcore band and the rhythm guitarist came in with an original Valvestate 30 watter which surprisingly cut above the drummer and even sounded good.

I am with Cathbard on this - if it was a proper class A design the 18 watts would be enough, hell my 15 watter (Orange Tiny Terror) cuts decently above a drummer at about 7 on the master volume, if put through 2x12s it isn't even an issue...but the H&L with its "tube" gimmick? I sincerely doubt it.

I think the TS should probably just call it a day and look for some kind of 50 watt tube combo, or head+2x12.
Last edited by diabolical at Dec 7, 2014,
#18
With a TM18 it's more than a little power amp distortion to keep up with a hardcore drummer, you'd have to dime it.
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#19
Sorry Cath, I went ot edit to add little more info.

Yeah, you're right. If it is all tube it might sound good, kinda like Slayer's "Undisputed Attittude" hardcore album, if you've heard it. I guess you can call it "retro" but he'd have his own tone. I just don't think that the H&K will survive that kind of punishment, if it was a Marshall Class A 18 watter, then it's another thing.

How about a Valveking? That's about $600, right? With 2x12 and 100 watt tube tone you'd be set man.
Last edited by diabolical at Dec 7, 2014,
#20
^ a VK combo over a 1980? Your ****in nuts

Slayer isn't hardcore, they are metal, it's not huge, but there is a difference
This is the band that invented Hardcore, and IMO are much better than Slayer

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Morley Bad Horsie 2
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#21
honestly dude, go buy a used Marshall JCM 2000, DSL 50 head. or the DSL40 combo. they are about 500-700 used and they are perfect for what you do. absolutely ideal. i think.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pZnmSBWowsY

i think the marshall i definitely "classic" marshall. i think the EVH has a more hi-def and modern sounding. if i was doing modern nu-metal or something i would probably be more towards the EVH. however, as a whole i think they could both hang in any genre of music.
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Last edited by ikey_ at Dec 8, 2014,
#23
Quote by herecomestreble
Would my H&K be able to sound loud enough/cut through/not get lost/keep up with a Mesa Dual 100 watt, 8x10 bass rig, drums, and vocals?


I'd generally go with 50W+ in this situation.

For starters, "outdoor" just eats sound unless you're playing under some kind of inversion layer. If you're lucky there's a hard wall behind you, but the sound goes out and it never comes back.

If you were the only instrument, an 18W would probably be just fine. But that amp isn't going to keep up with the rest of what you've described.

And honestly, you're best off running into the PA system. I would rather have both guitars and the bass running directly into a really good PA system than to try balancing all of this stuff. I've done both, and "great PA system" always wins.
#24
Quote by diabolical
Quite well aware of it, but this IS a hardcore album by them:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dj6PwljjIbA

What a horrible excuse for hardcore

That is called Thrash
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Last edited by Robbgnarly at Dec 8, 2014,
#25
my concern is sound disbursement. its coming off a single speaker. only people in that range could hear you.

i have gigged my 18watt clone over a drumset un-amped (but i had a cabinet on each sides and it worked great. but then again its a blues/blues rock thing, so i liked the powertube distortion. that amp are really fajuckin loud.

but other than a second cab, i don't think it was going to work. we also didn't have a gorilla pounding on the drums. he is a blues drummer, so not as intense as punk or metal.
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