#1
I'm planning to buy a Z Best cab very soon, but I can't make up my mind about the speakers. (or color, but disregard that...)

My first thought was a Creamback (H75) and a Vintage 30, but I noticed the standard options were G12H30 + Creamback (M65) or G12H30 + Vintage 30. It got me wondering why Doctor Z seems to like that G12H30 so much.

I have a few amp heads, but right now, I'll mostly be using a hard wired Tiny Terror with this cabinet. Strongly considering a Doctor Z Maz 18 NR in the future, though.

This is mainly for studio use in the context of pop, ranging from ordinary singer/songwriter music, to what we just call "white girl pop" (think Vanessa Carlton, Sara Bareilles, etc.), to the rockier side of Taylor Swift, to maybe a Disney rock sort of tone like Jonas Brothers. Just way pop studio tone. Also will be used for contemporary praise.

What are your opinions on the speakers mentioned?

Also, blonde or black with tan grill cloth?
#2
I really am not sure a MAZ 18 would be the right amp for that kind of tones.

If you think it is then...
I'd get the G12H30 + V30, which if ya ask me is the combo in which the speakers are most different, so you have yourself more options when recording.

Also def blonde with tan grille.
Name's Luca.

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#3
i haven't tried the creamback, but the problem with the g12h30 and v30 mix is that the power handling is all over the place. a v30 alone is good for 60 watts. combine a g12h30 and a v30 together and it's good for... 60 watts. That might not matter if you're using a pretty low wattage amp, but using a creamback in place of the g12h30 will up the overall power handling to 120 watts, i.e. it should be safe with a 100 watt amp (if you ever use one), whereas the v30/g12h30 combo won't be.

whether the creamback version sounds close to the g12h30, though, I dunno, as i said, i haven't tried it.
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Quote by K33nbl4d3
I'll have to put the Classic T models on my to-try list. Shame the finish options there are Anachronism Gold, Nuclear Waste and Aged Clown, because in principle the plaintop is right up my alley.

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#4
Quote by Spambot_2
I really am not sure a MAZ 18 would be the right amp for that kind of tones.

If you think it is then...
I'd get the G12H30 + V30, which if ya ask me is the combo in which the speakers are most different, so you have yourself more options when recording.

Also def blonde with tan grille.

I think I'm grouping too many sounds into one category. The main tone I'm thinking is the Taylor Swift part. Like this. I have Marshalls and such that can do the significantly rockier things fine.

A lot of people I have in for sessions play AC30's, BadCats, etc. I was thinking the Maz 18 NR was up that alley but different enough that it's not redundant with the usual session players. Heard the amp described as like 80% vox 20% plexi, which sounded really great to me.

I'm open to suggestions though, if you think another head would be a better choice.


The G12H30 with the vintage 30 would definitely be a lot easier. They have them in stock nearby. I could have it like tomorrow. I just hadn't really heard very much about the G12H30 before now. I do like different, though. In fact, if those are the most different, that almost does it for me already.
#5
Quote by Dave_Mc
i haven't tried the creamback, but the problem with the g12h30 and v30 mix is that the power handling is all over the place. a v30 alone is good for 60 watts. combine a g12h30 and a v30 together and it's good for... 60 watts. That might not matter if you're using a pretty low wattage amp, but using a creamback in place of the g12h30 will up the overall power handling to 120 watts, i.e. it should be safe with a 100 watt amp (if you ever use one), whereas the v30/g12h30 combo won't be.

whether the creamback version sounds close to the g12h30, though, I dunno, as i said, i haven't tried it.

I did think about this, actually. I normally gravitate to low wattage amps, but I do have one 100 watt Marshall. If I went with the g12h30 instead of the creamback, I would just have to accept that I wouldn't be pairing it with that head.

EDIT:
What if I bought an attenuator? Good idea/bad idea?
Last edited by Jordan N at Dec 20, 2014,
#7
Quote by Ippon
Audition both speaker combinations. What may sound glorious or OK to some may be awful to you.

If this is not possible, get both. You may like both or you can replace the speakers and flip what you replaced.

Unfortunately, trying both combinations first isn't an option.

Oh, that's a good way to look at it. I could also just pick something and go with it, then buy the other speaker later and swap them out if I felt like change. So no pressure, really.
#8
I'd go with two Vintage 30's (and NOT combined), but make sure they're well-broken-in before you use them for anything serious. Their sound changes noticeably.

In fact, you might see if Avatar has any of their Hellatone 60's available. These are Vintage 30's that have been put through a "breaking in" process, and then re-stickered as Hellatones.

You might also consider adding a small 4x10 open back cab with Jensens or Webers. The sound you're looking for is there.

One more small trick. Pick up a piezo tweeter, such as a KSN 1165 http://piezosourcestore.bestgrouptechnologies.com/model-ksn-1165a-bullet-tweeter/
They're about $40, and you can audition one by wiring it in and then just setting it down on the top of the cabinet. These are generally lower efficiency than, say, a V30 -- down around 92-93 SPL 1W 1M -- and can be L-padded if you want to reduce their output farther. They add some sparkle and reveal harmonics content that the 12" speakers don't. I had a *pair* of these built into each of a pair of stereo 2x12 ported cabinets that used Eminence Delta ProAs.

They show up as a minor capacitance change rather than an impedance change, and they don't need crossovers (they start coming in at around 1800Hz and go up from there). My cabinets could be used as stereo cabs, so each 12" had its own tweeter, and since the ProA's will handle up to 400W each, it's good that the 1165s have similar power capabilities (though they'll never be asked to use that much power to reproduce highs).

These aren't my cabs (mine were sprayed with Line-X), but are identical in construction. The two center ports in the top tune the ProA's to 52Hz at the bottom end. The two piezo tweeters are at the upper outboard corners.

Last edited by dspellman at Dec 20, 2014,
#9
Quote by Jordan N
I did think about this, actually. I normally gravitate to low wattage amps, but I do have one 100 watt Marshall. If I went with the g12h30 instead of the creamback, I would just have to accept that I wouldn't be pairing it with that head.

EDIT:
What if I bought an attenuator? Good idea/bad idea?


Dunno, I don't really have any experience with attenuators It seems like a bit of a roundabout (not to mention expensive) solution if you just want to be able to use the cab with your marshall as well- if that's the case i'd probably just get the creamback version of the G12H30.

However, for studio use an attenuator might be useful for getting the volume of those high wattage amps down a bit for recording. Then again, attenuators have the rep of not being much use for getting volumes way down, they're meant to be more useful for getting the volume down a little bit e.g. for slightly smaller gigs.
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Quote by K33nbl4d3
I'll have to put the Classic T models on my to-try list. Shame the finish options there are Anachronism Gold, Nuclear Waste and Aged Clown, because in principle the plaintop is right up my alley.

Quote by K33nbl4d3
Presumably because the CCF (Combined Corksniffing Forces) of MLP and Gibson forums would rise up against them, plunging the land into war.

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Et tu, br00tz?
#10
Quote by Dave_Mc
Dunno, I don't really have any experience with attenuators It seems like a bit of a roundabout (not to mention expensive) solution if you just want to be able to use the cab with your marshall as well- if that's the case i'd probably just get the creamback version of the G12H30.

However, for studio use an attenuator might be useful for getting the volume of those high wattage amps down a bit for recording. Then again, attenuators have the rep of not being much use for getting volumes way down, they're meant to be more useful for getting the volume down a little bit e.g. for slightly smaller gigs.

Honestly though, is 120 watts even enough for a 100 watt head? There's a chance the head could put out more than that. Like I don't know how much gain it takes to push out that much wattage, but I do know it's well within the amp's reach.
#11
with celestion it probably is (though don't quote me on that). Celestion rates most of its speakers (at least the well-known, famous good-quality ones) for "real world use", I think, so when they say a speaker is good for 50 watts, they mean a 50 watt tube amp (which might put out more, as you said). Whereas for example Eminence is a bit more optimistic, I'd be wary of running a 100 watt tube amp with a 100 watt-rated Eminence speaker.

But as I said, don't quote me on that. I haven't tried to break any speakers myself by pushing them as hard as I can, that's just hearsay from the net (and also from when I emailed celestion to ask, they said the speaker rating was fine with an amp of the same rating).
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Quote by K33nbl4d3
I'll have to put the Classic T models on my to-try list. Shame the finish options there are Anachronism Gold, Nuclear Waste and Aged Clown, because in principle the plaintop is right up my alley.

Quote by K33nbl4d3
Presumably because the CCF (Combined Corksniffing Forces) of MLP and Gibson forums would rise up against them, plunging the land into war.

Quote by T00DEEPBLUE
Et tu, br00tz?
#12
i run WGS copies of a g12 and a v30, dave MC is right, the cab is rated to 60 watts because the rule is 2x lower than the lowest wattage. so 30 watt speaker and a 60 watt speaker...you get 60 watts handling. it works for me because i never plan to own a amp over 50 watts. so its all good. for a maz 18 you are more than good with 60 watts.

if for any reason you need an amp over 50 watts, the g12 will have to be swapped out.
Carvin CT624
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#13
Quote by Dave_Mc
with celestion it probably is (though don't quote me on that). Celestion rates most of its speakers (at least the well-known, famous good-quality ones) for "real world use", I think, so when they say a speaker is good for 50 watts, they mean a 50 watt tube amp (which might put out more, as you said). Whereas for example Eminence is a bit more optimistic, I'd be wary of running a 100 watt tube amp with a 100 watt-rated Eminence speaker.


I think that's just random hearsay and Internet balderdash. Eminence does a good job with its speakers and its ratings. Wattage ratings are just a measure of heat dissipation, and guitar rarely puts 100W (or more) from a tube amp through a speaker long enough to build up sufficient heat to cook a speaker with the same rating.

I've run one particular 100W (EL-34 based) tube amp with a single 12" 100W-rated speaker since 1989, hauling the silly thing everywhere, and it's still going strong. I did swap it out for an EV for a period of time during that overall stretch, but the bulk of its use (and this amp produces stultifying volume) has been with that one specific speaker.

Closed back cabinets can exacerbate the heat issue, and you always need to guard against mechanical damage, but otherwise you should be good.
#14
Quote by ikey_
i run WGS copies of a g12 and a v30, dave MC is right, the cab is rated to 60 watts because the rule is 2x lower than the lowest wattage. so 30 watt speaker and a 60 watt speaker...you get 60 watts handling. .


Weird rule. So when Jim Marshall put four 25-watt greenbacks in his cabinet to handle a 100W Marshall head, what, exactly would that formula/rule work out to?
#15
Quote by ikey_
the rule is 2x lower than the lowest wattage.
Where did you find that rule?

'cause it kinda is wrong y' know.
Quote by dspellman
Eminence does a good job with its speakers and its ratings.
IIRC eminence itself advises people to be careful with their guitar speakers' ratings.
Quote by dspellman
Wattage ratings are just a measure of heat dissipation, and guitar rarely puts 100W (or more) from a tube amp through a speaker long enough to build up sufficient heat to cook a speaker with the same rating.
Ideally you would never cook a speaker by putting out its max rated power continuously.

If you meant a guitar amp would rarely put out a certain power continuously for enough time to cook a speaker rated a bit below that power, then be aware high gain amps put out a hell of a compressed sound if you turn the gain up.
Quote by dspellman
I've run one particular 100W (EL-34 based) tube amp with a single 12" 100W-rated speaker since 1989, hauling the silly thing everywhere, and it's still going strong.
What amp and speaker are you using exactly?
Name's Luca.

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#16
A good rule of thumb is to simply use a speaker rated at least as high as the amps rated output. This works 99% of the time. If you play really heavy all the time with highly saturated tone and lots of screaming feedback you may want to up your speaker rating a bit as a safety margin but it's not typically necessary.

I have blown a few Jensens with marginal watt ratings but never an Emi, EV, JBL or Celestion in a guitar amp. PA speakers are another matter.
"Your sound is in your hands as much as anything. It's the way you pick, and the way you hold the guitar, more than it is the amp or the guitar you use." -- Stevie Ray Vaughan

"Anybody can play. The note is only 20 percent. The attitude of the motherfucker who plays it is 80 percent." -- Miles Davis

Guthrie on tone: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zmohdG9lLqY
#17
Quote by dspellman
I think that's just random hearsay and Internet balderdash. Eminence does a good job with its speakers and its ratings. Wattage ratings are just a measure of heat dissipation, and guitar rarely puts 100W (or more) from a tube amp through a speaker long enough to build up sufficient heat to cook a speaker with the same rating.

I've run one particular 100W (EL-34 based) tube amp with a single 12" 100W-rated speaker since 1989, hauling the silly thing everywhere, and it's still going strong. I did swap it out for an EV for a period of time during that overall stretch, but the bulk of its use (and this amp produces stultifying volume) has been with that one specific speaker.

Closed back cabinets can exacerbate the heat issue, and you always need to guard against mechanical damage, but otherwise you should be good.


I'm not sure. I know on another forum I'm on, guys who actually make amps (for a living) have been saying that. I've never tested an eminence or celestion to destruction, but certainly the dB ratings of Eminences (that I've tried) have been very much on the optimistic side (and the guys on another forum I'm talking about also agree that those ratings are optimistic, too), so it doesn't seem much of a stretch to think the wattage ratings might be as well.

They know more than me, but one of the reasonings (which made sense to me) is- why are Eminence's Greenback-flavoured speakers, which seem to be made more or less with the same parts/specs as the Celestion versions, rated at 50W while Celestions are rated at 20-25W?
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Quote by K33nbl4d3
I'll have to put the Classic T models on my to-try list. Shame the finish options there are Anachronism Gold, Nuclear Waste and Aged Clown, because in principle the plaintop is right up my alley.

Quote by K33nbl4d3
Presumably because the CCF (Combined Corksniffing Forces) of MLP and Gibson forums would rise up against them, plunging the land into war.

Quote by T00DEEPBLUE
Et tu, br00tz?
#18
Quote by dspellman
Weird rule. So when Jim Marshall put four 25-watt greenbacks in his cabinet to handle a 100W Marshall head, what, exactly would that formula/rule work out to?
Well... it handles 100 watts. 4x25=100. What he is meaning to say is that the cab is rated to handle (the number of speakers)*(the wattage of the lowest rated speaker).


In the end, it shouldn't matter here because the Dr Z is a low wattage amp and should be able to get away with just about any of these speaker combinations. I think that the creambacks are great speakers. My personal favorites are still the orignial g12m 25 watt greenbacks and my cabs are all loaded with 25s. If you want to use your Marshall, then yes, you would likely need an attenuator. I say likely because I don't know how crazy you are about turning that amp to 10, but I've seen even 50 watt Marshalls cook two 30 watt Celestions before. Though if you are using an attenuator and turn it down a few clicks, you're golden.
Last edited by al112987 at Dec 22, 2014,
#19
Quote by Spambot_2

IIRC eminence itself advises people to be careful with their guitar speakers' ratings.


Good policy. They'll also be the first to tell you that speaker wattage ratings aren't necessarily the most useful thing to consider when evaluating a speaker's suitability for a task. Particularly where low frequency drivers are concerned, it's the cone excursion and the cabinet construction specs that will determine what it can handle.

Quote by Spambot_2
What amp and speaker are you using exactly?


That specific amp is an '89 Carvin XV112B (the "B" denoted their 100W "British" voiced speaker. The same amp was sold as an XV112E when equipped with an EV) 100W amp. FWIW, the current version of the amp (it's a reissue) is quite different, with smaller transformers and a digital reverb unit. Tubes are EL34s (12AX7s in the preamp, of course). Specs are available on the www.carvinmuseum.com site.
#20
Quote by al112987

In the end, it shouldn't matter here because the Dr Z is a low wattage amp and should be able to get away with just about any of these speaker combinations. I think that the creambacks are great speakers. My personal favorites are still the orignial g12m 25 watt greenbacks and my cabs are all loaded with 25s. If you want to use your Marshall, then yes, you would likely need an attenuator. I say likely because I don't know how crazy you are about turning that amp to 10, but I've seen even 50 watt Marshalls cook two 30 watt Celestions before. Though if you are using an attenuator and turn it down a few clicks, you're golden.

So if we're just talking about the Dr. Z and other small amps, would you go for the h75 creamback or the g12h30 to pair with a v30?

Greenbacks are definitely next on my speaker cabinet shopping list (dreaming list). A cab with a greenback and a blue or gold would be nifty, or if I get the h30 on this one, a greenback and a creamback on the next, then an open back with 10" golds? I don't know, I have ideas.

I never absolutely dime the Marshall, but it's definitely there for rock or even metal on occasion. To me, the sweet spot is more in the 5.5-8.5 area, and not slamming the pre either. Honestly, that thing is capable of way more gain than is ever necessary. Regardless, I'd feel pretty uncomfortable if the wrong knob settings could break something, so I'd do what I can to keep it safe.
#21
If it were me and we were just talking about an 18 watt dr z? I probably wouldn't go for v30 at all. I'd get lower wattage speakers but I also like to have my amps push my speakers a little bit. I'd go for g12h30/g12m25 or two of either. Otherwise if I had limitless funds I'd probably go alnico and get two blues.
#22
edit - 2x lowest wattage because its a 2x12 cab.

for 4x12 it would be 4x 25 watts (for greenbacks) so 100 watts handling for a 100 watt head.

if you had a 4x12 with 2 25 watt speakers and 2x 100 watt speakers, the handling is NOT 250 watts. its still 100 watts. its because yo are bottle necked by the lowest speaker. it distrubutes evenly. meaning, you have an amp putting out 100 watts going into 4 seperate devices. the power is going into each 4 equally. so, the max 2 can do is 25 + 25. thats it (theoretically). so the other 2 speakers will need to cover the other 50 watts.

since my reaper speaker only does 30 watts, power could be distributed evenly between my reaper and my v30 clone evenly, meaning 2x 30 watts. so i can handle 60 watts total rated amp output safely.

if i got a 100 watt amp, i could switch out for 2x v30s and then have 60 + 60 and get 120 watts power handling.

_________________

right, and if we are talking a maz 18...almost any single speaker can handle that. the question then becomes details - if you care about speaker breakup and if you want the response of a higher or lower wattage speaker.

from my experience, Dr. Z amps have a magical quality of being REALLY F'in loud for their respective size/ wattage. i know wattage doesnt equal volume, but every one i have plugged into it literally the loudest thing ive ever played. i would have a really hard time diming any dr. Z amp....my 2 cents.

v30s and g12H30s are a classic pair together fairly well suited for most "rock" and jazzy stuff. probably less good the higher gain you get. i would call it a "classic" sound???

i dont think they hold a all V30 type reputation of being a all around good for everything chameleon speaker. i like my avatar, good for most things i do. even higher gain stuff, but if i 100% played modern hard rock or metal i would have different speakers.
Carvin CT624
Walden G630ce Acoustic
Carvin V3M, Avatar 2x12 WGS Reaper, vet 30
(crybaby, Fairfield circuitry Comp, GFS tuner, Vick Audio 73 Ram's Head, Xotic AC booster, lovepedal trem, TC Flashback, PGS Trinity Reverb, Walrus Audio Aetos power)
Last edited by ikey_ at Dec 23, 2014,
#23
Quote by ikey_
edit - 2x lowest wattage because its a 2x12 cab.

for 4x12 it would be 4x 25 watts (for greenbacks) so 100 watts handling for a 100 watt head.

if you had a 4x12 with 2 25 watt speakers and 2x 100 watt speakers, the handling is NOT 250 watts. its still 100 watts. its because yo are bottle necked by the lowest speaker. it distrubutes evenly. meaning, you have an amp putting out 100 watts going into 4 seperate devices. the power is going into each 4 equally. so, the max 2 can do is 25 + 25. thats it (theoretically). so the other 2 speakers will need to cover the other 50 watts.

since my reaper speaker only does 30 watts, power could be distributed evenly between my reaper and my v30 clone evenly, meaning 2x 30 watts. so i can handle 60 watts total rated amp output safely.

if i got a 100 watt amp, i could switch out for 2x v30s and then have 60 + 60 and get 120 watts power handling.

_________________

right, and if we are talking a maz 18...almost any single speaker can handle that. the question then becomes details - if you care about speaker breakup and if you want the response of a higher or lower wattage speaker.

from my experience, Dr. Z amps have a magical quality of being REALLY F'in loud for their respective size/ wattage. i know wattage doesnt equal volume, but every one i have plugged into it literally the loudest thing ive ever played. i would have a really hard time diming any dr. Z amp....my 2 cents.

v30s and g12H30s are a classic pair together fairly well suited for most "rock" and jazzy stuff. probably less good the higher gain you get. i would call it a "classic" sound???

i dont think they hold a all V30 type reputation of being a all around good for everything chameleon speaker. i like my avatar, good for most things i do. even higher gain stuff, but if i 100% played modern hard rock or metal i would have different speakers.

I think I'm going to go with the g12h30 and v30. I really don't need it for high gain. I have a 4x12 that already takes care of that.

I can always swap out the h30 later if I feel the need.
#24
its definitely not a bad option. i mean, if you just google that combo, you should get a lot of hits on people using it. its a pretty widely accepted speaker pairing.

now if you need to save some cash, WGS makes the celestion clones for about 70 bucks a pop vs about 140 bucks a pop for celestion. about half.
Carvin CT624
Walden G630ce Acoustic
Carvin V3M, Avatar 2x12 WGS Reaper, vet 30
(crybaby, Fairfield circuitry Comp, GFS tuner, Vick Audio 73 Ram's Head, Xotic AC booster, lovepedal trem, TC Flashback, PGS Trinity Reverb, Walrus Audio Aetos power)
Last edited by ikey_ at Dec 23, 2014,