#1
Hi... I have some questions with modes... Can I use different modes with the same key? For example my key is Gmaj, what other modes can i use except for G Ionian/G Major Scale?
#2
Big topic. Depends how far you want to stray. Other close modes are G Mixolydian and G Lydian. But you can also mix and match, to grab chords, say, from minor modes, to place in a primarily major-based (i.e. with major 3rd in main scale choice) tune. So, G Bb C F G Bb C D Eb C G.

G Bb C F --- G Mixolydian + Bb is bIII from G Aeolian.
G Bb C D --- G Major + Bb s bIII from G Aeolian.
Eb C G. --- G Mix (or G maj ... ambiguous) + Eb is bVI from G Aeolian.

So, your tonality is based all around the pitch G, and the main flavour is based on Mixolydian, with small contributions from Aeolian.

cheers, Jerry
Last edited by jerrykramskoy at Dec 27, 2014,
#3
Quote by jerrykramskoy
Big topic. Depends how far you want to stray. Other close modes are G Mixolydian and G Lydian. But you can also mix and match, to grab chords, say, from minor modes, to place in a primarily major-based (i.e. with major 3rd in main scale choice) tune. So, G Bb C F G Bb C D Eb C G.

G Bb C F --- G Mixolydian + Bb is bIII from G Aeolian.
G Bb C D --- G Major + Bb s bIII from G Aeolian.
Eb C G. --- G Mix (or G maj ... ambiguous) + Eb is bVI from G Aeolian.

So, your tonality is based all around the pitch G, and the main flavour is based on Mixolydian, with small contributions from Aeolian.

cheers, Jerry


Uhm sorry but I still don't get it. Okay let's put it in a song... For example Little Wing by Jimi Hendrix, In that song we have Em, Gmaj, Am, Em, Bm, Am, Cmaj, Gmaj, Fmaj, Cmaj and Dmaj chords... I used E Aeolian because it's the minor scale.. What other modes can I use? I tried E Dorian, it sounds good but some of the notes are not.. And I also tried E Phrygian but some of the notes sounds bad... How can I use the other modes that will sound good? :
#4
It's easier to think of that tune in E minor. It has a borrowed chord "Fmaj" from the C scale.

This tune is fun to play because of all the different ways you can play the changes. It seems to modulate somewhere in the second half, but you can hit it hard on the F chord or you can "soften it" by modulating to C earlier, when the C chord is played. The D chord at the end is an "interrupted cadence" bringing the key strongly back to Em. You can also just play Em pentatonic over the whole lot.
#5
You need to look at the notes in the scale and the notes in your chords. "Use these scales over this key" just doesn't work in most cases. It depends on the context.

For example if your chord progression is C major - F major, first look at what notes are in those chords. Both are diatonic to C major so C major scale will work. C major chord has C, E and G in it, F major chord has F, A and C in it. Now let's find scales that have C, E, F, G and A notes in them. You could also use C mixolydian - it has all the chord tones in it. You could also use C minor pentatonic, even though it has one "clash note" in it (the minor third). But playing a minor third over the tonic major chord doesn't usually sound that bad - especially if you bend it a bit. It just sounds bluesy. Though sometimes you don't want to sound bluesy.

But when it comes to more complex progressions than that (for example Little Wing), you usually can't choose between many scales. You can of course add accidentals (notes outside of the scale) but you need to be careful with it - many times they clash with the chords.

So know the chords you are playing over. Know which key the chords are in. Stay inside the key scale most of the time. The Little Wing progression has one non-diatonic chord, F major. This means E minor scale won't work over that chord because Em scale has a F# in it. Playing F# over F major chord will not sound good. So when playing over that chord, either avoid that note or just change the F# note to F. Play Em over everything else. Oh, and of course Em pentatonic will work over all the chords in the progression.

Why E phrygian doesn't work is because it has an F in it instead of F# and there are chords in the progression that have a F# in them (Bm, D major). And even if it technically fit the chords in the progression, it could still sound a bit off.

E dorian will not work over the progression. The C# note in the scale just won't work over many of the chords (Am, C major, F major). It could work over other chords in the progression but it could sound a bit strange.

I don't think you are ready for this yet. You need to learn about keys, chord functions and chord construction before you can really understand which scales to use over which chords (or just train your ears to hear it).

But yeah, if you were only playing over one chord, let's say G major, you could use G major, G mixo, G lydian and all of them would sound just fine. You could even use G minor pentatonic to make it sound bluesy.

But yeah, before learning about modes you should learn about keys. All the different modes will just confuse you.
Quote by AlanHB
Just remember that there are no boring scales, just boring players.

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Last edited by MaggaraMarine at Dec 27, 2014,
#6
Quote by MaggaraMarine
You need to look at the notes in the scale and the notes in your chords. "Use these scales over this key" just doesn't work in most cases. It depends on the context.

For example if your chord progression is C major - F major, first look at what notes are in those chords. Both are diatonic to C major so C major scale will work. C major chord has C, E and G in it, F major chord has F, A and C in it. Now let's find scales that have C, E, F, G and A notes in them. You could also use C mixolydian - it has all the chord tones in it. You could also use C minor pentatonic, even though it has one "clash note" in it (the minor third). But playing a minor third over the tonic major chord doesn't usually sound that bad - especially if you bend it a bit. It just sounds bluesy. Though sometimes you don't want to sound bluesy.

But when it comes to more complex progressions than that (for example Little Wing), you usually can't choose between many scales. You can of course add accidentals (notes outside of the scale) but you need to be careful with it - many times they clash with the chords.

So know the chords you are playing over. Know which key the chords are in. Stay inside the key scale most of the time. The Little Wing progression has one non-diatonic chord, F major. This means E minor scale won't work over that chord because Em scale has a F# in it. Playing F# over F major chord will not sound good. So when playing over that chord, either avoid that note or just change the F# note to F. Play Em over everything else. Oh, and of course Em pentatonic will work over all the chords in the progression.

Why E phrygian doesn't work is because it has an F in it instead of F# and there are chords in the progression that have a F# in them (Bm, D major). And even if it technically fit the chords in the progression, it could still sound a bit off.

E dorian will not work over the progression. The C# note in the scale just won't work over many of the chords (Am, C major, F major). It could work over other chords in the progression but it could sound a bit strange.

I don't think you are ready for this yet. You need to learn about keys, chord functions and chord construction before you can really understand which scales to use over which chords (or just train your ears to hear it).

But yeah, if you were only playing over one chord, let's say G major, you could use G major, G mixo, G lydian and all of them would sound just fine. You could even use G minor pentatonic to make it sound bluesy.

But yeah, before learning about modes you should learn about keys. All the different modes will just confuse you.



So am I going to study the notes of each chord to know what mode can i use? So is it like an arpeggio? Sorry if I ask too much, I just want to learn
#7
Basically yes. It is good to know the chord tones. That way you can figure out which scale could work over it.

You need to see the big picture. Don't just think in individual chords. This is why you should also learn about chord functions.

Also, you don't need to think all scales as different scales. You can just think them as variations of the major and minor scales. Compared to the minor scale, both dorian and phrygian are just one note different. And compared to the major scale, both mixolydian and lydian are just one note different. So maybe don't think them as whole separate scales - try to see the connection between them and the major/minor scale. This way you don't need to choose one scale to play over the progression - you can add accidentals to your taste and mix scales because you know what notes make the scales different from each other.

But yeah, first learn about intervals, major and minor keys and chord functions. And remember to use your ears. Music is all about sound. Forget about modes for now. They aren't as important as you may think. Focus on major and minor and learn about keys.


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V

@Lersch

I think to really understand what the thread you linked talks about, you need to know some theory. Of course TS could read it but I'm not sure if he will understand it yet.
Quote by AlanHB
Just remember that there are no boring scales, just boring players.

Gear

Bach Stradivarius 37G
Charvel So Cal
Fender Dimension Bass
Hartke HyDrive 210c
Ibanez BL70
Laney VC30
Tokai TB48
Yamaha FG720S-12
Yamaha P115
Last edited by MaggaraMarine at Dec 27, 2014,
#9
Look at that, I didn't even have to link it!

Anyway, scale choice over certain chords is an improvisational choice when dealing with tonal music. If the chord tones/harmonies you delineate with your lines make sense, then your'e fine.

If you were just playing a static Gmaj7, you could use Ionian & Lydian, but I would avoid the other modes (of a major scale at least) because they have b7s and it will clash with the maj7.

It's all about chord tones.
"There are two styles of music. Good music and bad music." -Duke Ellington

"If you really think about it, the guitar is a pointless instrument." - Robert Fripp
#10
Quote by JamesSteven
Uhm sorry but I still don't get it. Okay let's put it in a song... For example Little Wing by Jimi Hendrix, In that song we have Em, Gmaj, Am, Em, Bm, Am, Cmaj, Gmaj, Fmaj, Cmaj and Dmaj chords... I used E Aeolian because it's the minor scale.. What other modes can I use? I tried E Dorian, it sounds good but some of the notes are not.. And I also tried E Phrygian but some of the notes sounds bad... How can I use the other modes that will sound good? :


In the context of Little Wing, Hendrix is primarily spelling out the chords, doing so using the appropriate notes from E Aeolian or E m pentatonic, since nearly all the chords come from E Aeolian. The only exception is the F. Again, E m pentatonic works here (since Em and Fmaj are iii and IV of a different key, C maj, hence can play m pent a semitone behind the major).

At a pinch, you could play F Lydian against the F, but that's probably over the top, cf using simple E m pentatonic, which will still bring out that sound.

cheers, Jerry
Last edited by jerrykramskoy at Dec 27, 2014,
#11
You can always do whatever you want. That said, I would say it depends on the progression.

For common music, I would say that the answer is no, with exceptions. Blues is one such exception.

Most of the time, for the music I play, I stick to the same mode for the same key, and find that doing otherwise sounds odd and unmusical.

For Little wing, I play Em. To my knowledge there is no Fmaj in it though, so there might be a part I'm missing or something. But there is an F sus2; G sus2; A sus2 part. Maybe that's what you mean.
Last edited by fingrpikingood at Dec 27, 2014,
#12
Hi James. It really depends by what you mean by "modes". I have a feeling you're just looking for scales and getting different sounds than the straight major and minor scales.

As noted above, you can play any note you want at any time. You can also add some extra notes to the major or minor scale. A pretty standard scale to use in combination with the major and minor scales is the blues scale.

What does this have to do with modes? Nothing.
And no, Guitar Hero will not help. Even on expert. Really.
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#14
Quote by fingrpikingood
You can always do whatever you want. That said, I would say it depends on the progression.

For common music, I would say that the answer is no, with exceptions. Blues is one such exception.

Most of the time, for the music I play, I stick to the same mode for the same key, and find that doing otherwise sounds odd and unmusical.

For Little wing, I play Em. To my knowledge there is no Fmaj in it though, so there might be a part I'm missing or something. But there is an F sus2; G sus2; A sus2 part. Maybe that's what you mean.

The Fsus2 still functions as an F major chord. The "sus2" is just an added note.
Quote by AlanHB
Just remember that there are no boring scales, just boring players.

Gear

Bach Stradivarius 37G
Charvel So Cal
Fender Dimension Bass
Hartke HyDrive 210c
Ibanez BL70
Laney VC30
Tokai TB48
Yamaha FG720S-12
Yamaha P115
#15
Quote by MaggaraMarine
The Fsus2 still functions as an F major chord. The "sus2" is just an added note.


That might be true, but in that song, I find that part is kind of almost signature to the song, so I personally don't **** with it much.