#1
What chords might BEST fit (in place of the question marks) behind the alternate ending?

I understand the outside notes can be thought of as mere accidentals.

I am trying to understand what effect the outside notes might have on the chords accompanying them? (don't the accidentals suggest more suitably voiced chords (or progression) to accompany them?)

...and yes I know my choice of chords (in the first ending) don't have to be restricted to the one's I've used, I was trying to keep things as simple as I could, for a lack of better words (and theory knowledge).

It's just, to the natural ear, it just sounds like there might be more going on with the chord changes (based on the accidentals).

(Ugh! wish I had a better way with words - and chords ).

Any advice??? Thanks!


   first ending...
e |-------|-------|-------|-------|---|
B |-------|-------|-5---5-|-6-5---|---|
G |-5-4-5-|-7-5-7-|---7---|-----5-|---|
D |-------|-------|-------|-------|-7-|
A |-------|-------|-------|-------|---|
E |-------|-------|-------|-------|---|
     III     iv       v      VI     i   

   alternate ending...
e |-------|-------|-------|-4-5-7-|-5-|
B |-------|-------|-4-5-7-|-------|---|
G |-------|-4-5-7-|-------|-------|---|
D |-4-5-7-|-------|-------|-------|---|
A |-------|-------|-------|-------|---|
E |-------|-------|-------|-------|---|
      ?       ?       ?       ?     i?
Last edited by tonibet72 at Jan 21, 2015,
#2
Depends: How hardcore do you want the reharm?

Yes, the accidentals can be thought of as mere accidentals, but there is also implied behavior. You accidentals appear to be closer to chord tones than NCTs.

Let's keep it simple and stick to major chord tones only, as well as assume we aren't going to change keys.

The first solution that jumps out at me is this:

D7 - G - B7 - E7 - back to Am. This way, you take advantage of a 3 - 4- 5 motion in each bar with respect to chord scale.

Now granted, that's but one possibility. We could modulate or throw in multiple chords per bar, the possibilities are endless.

But for now, a good rule of thumb for you is that any note can potentially be the 1, 3, or 5 (or 7 if your'e feeling crafty) of any chord. The next step is to make the progression make sense.

Another note: Your first ending is in the key of C major. The analysis should be:

I - ii - iii - iv - vi.

Lemme know if that all makes sense. Like I said, we can explore further possibilities as well, that's just something to start off with.
"There are two styles of music. Good music and bad music." -Duke Ellington

"If you really think about it, the guitar is a pointless instrument." - Robert Fripp
#3
Depends: How hardcore do you want the reharm?
reharm ...huh?

Yes, the accidentals can be thought of as mere accidentals, but there is also implied behavior.
You accidentals appear to be closer to chord tones than NCTs.


The first solution that jumps out at me is this:
D7 - G - B7 - E7 - back to Am.
This way, you take advantage of a 3-4-5 motion in each bar with respect to chord scale.
That's sounds something like what I was hearing. (Thanks!)


Now granted, that's but one possibility.
We could modulate or throw in multiple chords per bar, the possibilities are endless.
Modulate ...
and multiple chords per bar ...

any chance of just one simple example of each? In the off chance that I might just click?
Actions (ie: a simple example) speak louder than words?


But for now, a good rule of thumb for you is that any note can potentially be the 1, 3, or 5
(or 7 if your'e feeling crafty) of any chord. The next step is to make the progression make sense.
.

alternate ending...
e |-------|-------|-------|-4-5-7-|-5-|
B |-------|-------|-4-5-7-|-------|---|
G |-------|-4-5-7-|-------|-------|---|
D |-4-5-7-|-------|-------|-------|---|
A |-------|-------|-------|-------|---|
E |-------|-------|-------|-------|---|

rule of thumb chords...
[B](any note can potentially be the 1, 3, or 5)...[/B]
e |-------|---4---|-------|---[B][color="Red"]4[/COLOR][/B]---|--5-|
B |---5---|---3---|---[B][color="Red"]4[/COLOR][/B]---|---4---|--5-|
G |---3---|---[B][color="Red"]4[/COLOR][/B]---|---6---|---5---|--5-|
D |---[B][color="Red"]4[/COLOR][/B]---|---2---|---5---|---6---|--7-|
A |-------|-------|---6---|---6---|--7-|
E |---2---|-------|-------|---4---|--5-|
[B]F#7 E7 D#7 G# Am[/B]

[color="Blue"].
Does this progression make sense?[/COLOR]


Another note: Your first ending is in the key of C major.
The analysis should be: I - ii - iii - iv - vi...?
What? are you saying it finishes back at C Major?
Why does it just feel/sound like A minor to me??


Lemme know if that all makes sense.
Like I said, we can explore further possibilities as well, that's just something to start off with.
Please don't get me wrong... I'm absolutely stoked with your response.
If you could just provide just one modulate and multiple chords per bar example,
I think that would be enough at my meager level for now.

and thanks again for your response so far!!
Last edited by tonibet72 at Jan 22, 2015,
#6
D7 - G - B7 - E7 - Am was what I was thinking of.

For first ending also try C - Dm7 - G6 - E7 - Am. It resolves stronger to Am.

F#7 E7 D#7/Eb7 A#/Bb Am

Does this progression make sense?

Make sure the other notes also fit those chords. The A over F#7 doesn't sound horrible but it's a minor third over a major chord. E7 sounds fine. Gb over Eb7 is the same as A over F#7 - a minor third over a major chord. Same with the (BTW, that's Ab major, not Bb major) Ab major chord - a minor third over a major chord. And the Ab-Am also sounds a bit strange (nothing wrong with that).

The last notes of the melody clearly suggest a V-i.
Quote by AlanHB
Just remember that there are no boring scales, just boring players.

Gear

Bach Stradivarius 37G
Charvel So Cal
Fender Dimension Bass
Hartke HyDrive 210c
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Yamaha P115
Last edited by MaggaraMarine at Jan 22, 2015,
#7
Thanks for the feedback!
D7 - G - B7 - E7 - Am was what I was thinking of.
I have to agree now, but man I was never gonna identify D7 as a starting point.
(hilarious, now you guys mention it, seems so obvious)
The last notes of the melody clearly suggest a V-i.
(again, hilarious now you mention it)
...it's a minor third over a major chord...
And the Ab-Am also sounds a bit...
Yeah I was aware of the M/m 3rds, that was why I constructed the chord chart to show what position (voicing) I was using.
Jerry's E alt chord does the same thing, but I quite like it (in it's own right).
(BTW, that's Ab major, not Bb major)
Thanks for that, I've now changed those 2 chords (via edit) to D#7 and G# since E and A chords already exist in the progression.

Actually that's a point: Assuming the tune is generally in A minor, what scale(s) is the alternate ending using, in relation to the whole assumed A minor-ish feel to the piece (and please try to avoid the "their just accidentals" route).
Progression being: D7 - G - B7 - E7 - back to Am. (what I think I was originally hearing?)

Would this then clarify wether the F#, G# and D# chords are correct? (As opposed to Gb, Ab and Eb) in the other progression:
Being: F#7-E7-D#7-G#-Am

Thanks!!
#8
Okay in order of appearance:

1. Reharm, or reharmonization is the art and craft of changing the harmonies to a song, either in advance or by improvising new changes on the fly.

2. Here's modulation (an extreme example, but whatever, I feel like taking this bitch to F# minor):

F#m7b5 - Cmaj7 - B7 - Bm7 or C#7- F#m7

#IVm7b5 - Imaj7 - V7/III - IVm7 or V7 (We are now in F#min) - Im7

3. Again with 2 chords per bar (also modulates ALOT, why the hell not):

Dmaj7 Bbmaj7 - G7 Db7 - Cm B7 - E Bb7 - Amaj

3a. One more with one per note, I'm feeling fun tonight:

Dmaj7 Gm7 Fmaj7 - A7 Abmaj7 Ebmaj7 - Abm7 Cmaj7 Ab7 - Db7 Am7 Abm7 - Gm9

Won't put analysis for now, you guys could use a workout! (cracks whip)

4. On the progression and making "sense"

-Yes and no. You need to be careful with the third note in each bar, as your melody treats them as chord tones. This is causing you two issues:

1. The melody fits under the chords awkwardly. You have a lot of #9s on dominant chords on dominants that should not be altered in order to behave the way you have them placed. This is even more off on the second to last chord, which really should have an altered ninth, at least not with that root.

2. The chord progression itself. You want your chords to follow each other in a sequence that has logic to it, not because you made each melody note the root/third/fifth and went with it. The E7 to Eb7 is good, but the preceding and following chords fit awkwardly. The G# or Bb to A minor is (either really) extremely weird in this context

My question to you, is to what your thought process was when selecting the chords. Perhaps this will help shed some light on the thing. Your chord sequence is not bad or invalid by any means, however, it is weak (for lack of a better term) and could be strengthened and less awkwardly placed (again, NOT insults by any means)

4. The Analysis:

In the music you have given us, there is nothing there to suggest or confirm A minor as a key. You begin with a diatonic C major progression and head to an Am chord, but at no point does it become the key. It may "sound" like A minor at that point in time (when you get to the Am), but this is no indicator of key. Play the progression again, and stop before the A minor. I severely doubt you hear Am as the root. You hear C.

Side note:

-Just because a melody has those implications does not mean they cannot be subverted. I dodged an V-I (in A major or minor) in every single reharm.

On the subject of scales and accidentals:

- Once you delve into chromatic harmony and deviating from the key, this entire concept of a scale governing the chords you can use begins to break down. All of the chords in all of the alternate endings are not governed by a single scale or specific addition to A minor.

- There is no one scale that fits over all the chords. In fact, each chord can be thought of as having its own scale. My point being that the scale does not make the chords "right" or rectify them as making sense.

-Given a melody to harmonize, we have numerous scales and techniques at our disposal. Think of scales like different colors in a single painting, instead of a series of different monochromatic pictures.

-Also PLEASE continue to ask questions and discuss. The intricacies of chromatic harmony are complex and cover many different areas, and it can be very difficult at first, as well as require a lot of practice and understanding.
"There are two styles of music. Good music and bad music." -Duke Ellington

"If you really think about it, the guitar is a pointless instrument." - Robert Fripp
#9
Thanks for the time Jet, this is very enlightening (and a little overwhelming I must admit).
You guys make it all sound so easy!!

Just to get a little clarity on a couple things:

                                G#       G#
e |---------|--------|-------|--------7-(---)----------|----|
B |-10------|-8------|-7---[B]7[/B]-|([B][color="Red"]7[/COLOR][/B]/[B][color="Blue"]9[/COLOR][/B])10---(-7-)-[B]9[/B]--[B]10[/B]-[B]12[/B]-|-[B]10[/B]-|
G |-9-------|-9----[B]7[/B]-|-[B]8[/B]-[B]9[/B]---|-7--------(-7-)-10-------|-9--|
D |-10----[B]9[/B]-|-[B]9[/B]-[B]10[/B]---|-7-----|-7--------(-[B][color="Blue"]6[/COLOR][/B]-)-9--------|-11-|
A |-[B]9[/B]--[B]10[/B]---|--------|-------|----------(---)----------|-9--|
E |---------|-8------|-7-----|-7--------(-7-)-9--------|----|
F#m7b5 Cmaj7 B7 [[B][color="Red"]Bm7[/COLOR][/B]-------[B][color="Blue"]Bm6[/COLOR][/B]] C#7 F#m7

Shouldn't your Bm7 become a Bm6 (due to the G# in the melody?)

e |---------|------------|-------[B]2[/B]-|-[B]4[/B]--[B]5[/B]-([B][color="Blue"]7[/COLOR][/B])-----|-[B]5[/B]--|
B |-2-----6-|-3----([B][color="Red"]2[/COLOR][/B]/[B][color="Blue"]3[/COLOR][/B])-|-[B]4[/B]--[B]5[/B]--4-|-5-----6------|-5--|
G |-2-----7-|-[B]4[/B]--[B]5[/B]--4----|-------2-|-4-----7------|-6--|
D |-[B]4[/B]--[B]5[/B]--[B]7[/B]-|-3-----3----|-5-------|-------6------|-7--|
A |-5-------|-------4----|-3-----2-|--------------|-7--|
E |-------6-|-3----------|---------|-0-----6------|-5--|
DM7 BbM7 G7 [B][color="Red"]Db7[/COLOR][/B]([B][color="Blue"]7b9[/COLOR][/B]) Cm B7 E [B][color="Red"]Bb7[/COLOR][/B]([B][color="Blue"]7b9[/COLOR][/B]) Amaj

and here: shouldn't Db7 be Db7b9; and Bb7 become Bb7b9?;

[font="Arial"]or is it just a case of "voicing/arrangement is everything",
as with the clash of the minor seconds not being so obvious
when played independently from one another
(ie: chords on one instrument vs melody played on another),
as MM kinda pointed out in his post with the minor 3rds vs Major chords?
(and Jerry's E alt chord?).[/FONT]

1. The melody fits under the chords awkwardly. You have a lot of #9s on dominant chords on dominants that should not be altered in order to behave the way you have them placed.
So how do your examples differ (ie:are b9's allowed and #9's not?).
.
.
2. ...second to last chord, which really should have an altered ninth, at least not with that root.
Do you mean like this??? (alt without root?).
e |---5---|--5-|
B |---5---|--5-| fricken heck!
G |---5---|--5-|
D |---4---|--7-| try playing
A |---6---|--7-|
E |---?---|--5-| that shape!!
....G#alt/? Am

.
3. My question to you, is to what your thought process was when selecting the chords. (Not insults by any means)
First off, definitely no offense taken, but the truth is my weird eclectic chordal arrangement was based entirely upon your first post comment. "...rule of thumb ...any note 1, 3, or 5... of any chord...".
Most likely I completely misunderstood... actually that was why_ I used such chords... to see what chords you'd say were allowed and what chords would not, and maybe suggest alternatives for the one's you deemed "weak" (good word) Sure! "a little thought process" is good advice, I was curious to see where the "ends of the earth" might fall.
.
.
4. The Analysis:
Play the progression again, and stop before the A minor. I severely doubt you hear Am as the root. You hear C.
ummm... I kinda hear (in my ears at least) an argument for both C Major and A Minor (especially when playing the melody line for the first ending)???
.
.
5. Side note:
Just because a melody has those implications does not mean they cannot be subverted. I dodged an V-I (in A major or minor) in every single reharm.
owww my brain's starting to hurt!
.
.
6. On the subject of scales and accidentals:
- Once you delve into chromatic harmony and deviating from the key, this entire concept of a scale governing the chords you can use begins to break down. All of the chords in all of the alternate endings are not governed by a single scale or specific addition to A minor.

- There is no one scale that fits over all the chords. In fact, each chord can be thought of as having its own scale. My point being that the scale does not make the chords "right" or rectify them as making sense.

-Given a melody to harmonize, we have numerous scales and techniques at our disposal. think of scales like different colors in a single painting, instead of a series of different monochromatic pictures.
That just sounds wicked! love to know more of that kinda thing. Other than going school (not doing it) is there any material online that might serve as a sort of intro/crash course?.
.
.
7. Also PLEASE continue to ask questions and discuss. The intricacies of chromatic harmony are complex and cover many different areas, and it can be very difficult at first, as well as require a lot of practice and understanding.
In all honesty, I was noodling round the A minor scale (between the 5th and 8th frets) and stumbled across the run and didn't quite know how to construct my query. All I had was this nice sounding run that got back nicely to the 5th fret (thin e string) without using the A minor scale without really losing the essence of the A minor sounds, to you guys here, most likely a walk in the park, but to my naked ears, I was like "what just happened?" and just wanted a little clarity as to what was going on behind it,
I thought it might spark similar interest for others here at my level?

Thanks again and apologies for the stupid questions in advance!
#10
Hey no problem at all. Anytime. I'll go in order again:

1. The Bm6:

It's not a Bm6 because the melody treats the G# as a passing tone, not a chord tone.

2. The 7b9 issue:

They are actually 7b9 chords. I didn't list numbers higher than b7 because I didn't know how much chromatic stuff you knew, and didn't want to unnecessarily confuse with large extensions. My bad.

3. Why I "got away" with b9 chords:

The rule of thumb is that if there is a b9, there is also an implied #9. The problem is more that those chords with altered 9ths do not behave as altered dominants. Their extensions imply a certain behavior, and they behave totally differently.

Not to say you can't do something different than the implications, but in your example the chord movement is not strong enough to overcome these. So what happens is it sounds like you chord is pulling in two different directions at once, and going neither.

My examples differ because all of my altered dominant behave like altered dominants, and resolve as an altered dominant would, usually down by half step, or with another "strong" root movement.

4. The last chord having an altered ninth:

That was actually a typo. It should NOT have an alt. 9th with that root (G#)

What I actually meant was in A minor, a G# chord probably shouldn't have alt. 9ths, at least not if it is going UP to A minor. If that chord was going down to G, different story entirely. I didn't mean drop the root from the voicing, I meant that a chord built off that letter with those extensions in that context is an odd duck.

However, if you were going to do it, these are the voicings you'd want:

7b9 = Dim7 chord off 3 5 7 or b9 (ex. G#7b9 = B# (C)dim7)

7#9 = Dim(maj7) chord (yes its a real chord) off 3 (G#7#9 = C dim(maj7)

5. On the thought process thingy:

Dude It's totally fine, no worries. The 1, 3, 5 rule works to help you select chords that are consonant over that instance of melody, which you successfully did. But the next step is to chose chords that link up in a meaningful way. Again, your progression is not bad or invalid by any means, I just think it could be more smooth. Experimentation is everything, after all. By following the first rule, you could come up with really any sequence of chords imaginable, the trick is to find a good combination so it doesn't sound like you are bouncing around everywhere.

6. On the first ending key:

Well, when you get to the last bar of the first ending, you have tonicized Am, but globally, the key is still Cmajor. We have not modulated. If you stop right before the Am, and just play your:

C -Dm - Em - F

The F definitely sounds like IV in C major. Minor keys rarely if ever start on the III chord and move in the way you have it here. Don't worry, it doesn't change anything about what you have written, I just, wouldn't call it C major.

7. On your brain hurting:

This is not easy at all, but you'll get it with practice. The whole thing with implied behavior and subverting expectations is practically a field in itself.

8. On learning this stuff:

I dunno, I actually learned a lot of this from classical comp books and playing jazz for a long time. And music school of course. The first school I was at had a HARDCORE music dept. that taught jazz with classical theory.

There's probably a ton of material on chord-scale theory on the web, but some of it is very misinformative, especially for guitarists, because the modal terminology gets thrown around a lot. In addition, CST has a few flaws in the theory that can really trip people up.

I do plan on doing a future JTJ on reharmonization, so there's that

Maybe I'll do a crash course thread first. Or a big sticky where we all just edit everyone's chord progressions.

Also, we can totally continue down the rabbit hole here. Out of curiosity, how much chord theory do you know. You caught the b9s, but do you know about secondary, and substitute dominants? That's the best place to start, IMO.

P.S. There are no stupid questions, only questions without obvious answers. Ask away.
"There are two styles of music. Good music and bad music." -Duke Ellington

"If you really think about it, the guitar is a pointless instrument." - Robert Fripp
#11
Thanks again for the response!

1. The Bm6:
G# as a passing tone (in this instance), okay thanks!

2. The 7b9 issue:
Thanks!

3. Why I "got away" with b9 chords:
With Altereds, I believe I loosely know what one is... #/b 5's and 9's (any combo)?.
As for application... no not really? (no clarification needed, guess I can wiki that).

4. The last chord having an altered ninth:
So are you saying:
G#7b9 is better voiced as B#dim7?
(that chord does sound/move better).

and:
(G#7#9 better expressed as Cdim(maj7)?
((B note) sounds weirder than my G#?)

B#°7?  C°/Δ7?
|---| |---|
|-4-| |-4-|
|-2-| |-[b][color="red"]4[/color][/b]-|
|-4-| |-4-|
|-3-| |-3-|
|---| |---|


5. On the thought process thingy: Experimentation is everything, after all.
AGREED!

6. On the first ending key: C - Dm - Em - F - C or Am??
True, when strumming through with open guitar chords it does sound like C Major!

7. On your brain hurting:The whole thing with implied behavior and subverting expectations is practically a field in itself.
Phew!!

8. On learning this stuff: CST, misinformation (modes) and flaws. (how much chord theory do you know?).
I believe I'm okay with simple major modes, beyond that (Harm/Mel modes)... not really?
Intervals and Chord construction: I can build em' but, but as for horizontal movement (is that what you call it?)... nope!
(but I guessing you'd know that by now)
Secondary, and substitute dominants: Ever met somebody a few times, only to continually forget their name?
Start there: Thanks for the reminder!

I do plan on doing a future JTJ on re harmonization, so there's that, Maybe I'll do a crash course thread first.
Yes please, Crash course first ...then sticky?!

Also, we can totally continue down the rabbit hole here.
Your humility is humbling.
I might wiki a few things you've mentioned first,
actually I have found a few links I believe I should look into first:
https://www.ultimate-guitar.com/forum/search.php?searchid=14450700
https://www.ultimate-guitar.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1667928

P.S. There are no stupid questions, only questions without obvious answers. Ask away.
Thanks Jet, that's appreciated!


Just as a side note
Do you (or anyone) know of any guitar based song/track using the Locrian Scale (I'll say scale to keep things kosher).
I tabbed this song out last year, thinking it might run along those lines, as the lead has that unsettling feel about it, like it's always one step behind resolution (particularly towards the end).

I initially thought it might have been using Locrian in F, but as I continued writing my Tab, I started to think maybe Mixolydian in C#?
Really I have no idea and as far as I know have not yet come across anything "Locrian" (guitar based) yet?

Audio link:
youtube.com/watch?v=rxL8B1kJXFY&t=1m10s
Tab link:
http://tabs.ultimate-guitar.com/j/john_mclaughlin/marbles_tab.htm

(I know, the tab structure looks sh*t'ouse - I was restricted to the confines of UG's tabbing parameters).
(I do have a TUX-Guitar version of it as well, if that is uploadable on this site)

Cheers!
#12
You appear to have everything down. Those are the exact chord voicings I had in mind and everything. Yes to All.

Your recipe for alt. dominants is mostly right, but they behave a certain way. Check out some jazz charts.

Also, The Locrian mode is not real. Without a P5 in the scale, you cannot tonicize the root.

More in depth explanation can be found in this thread:

https://www.ultimate-guitar.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1660895&highlight=mode+war

I'll check the other stuff later/tomorrow, I'm drunk and frankly have no idea why I feel like forum-ing.
"There are two styles of music. Good music and bad music." -Duke Ellington

"If you really think about it, the guitar is a pointless instrument." - Robert Fripp
#13
About that song you posted - it sounds like a dorian vamp. So to me sounds like the F is the major 6th and Ab is the tonic.

Just listen to the chords the organ plays - sounds like i-IV (Abm7-Db7).
Quote by AlanHB
Just remember that there are no boring scales, just boring players.

Gear

Bach Stradivarius 37G
Charvel So Cal
Fender Dimension Bass
Hartke HyDrive 210c
Ibanez BL70
Laney VC30
Tokai TB48
Yamaha FG720S-12
Yamaha P115
Last edited by MaggaraMarine at Jan 24, 2015,
#14
Quote by MaggaraMarine
sounds like a dorian vamp. Ab is the tonic.
listen to the organ - sounds like i-IV (Abm7-Db7).
Thanks for that, true, that does sound better!! although I would never have picked the Db7, closest I got was a couple of major triads vamping by ear (which I knew probably wasn't the case), so cheers!!
#15
You could also look at it as an unresolved ii-V.

Also, Abm7 is really close to Cb major (Abm7 = Cb major + Ab in bass) so it may sound a bit like Cb-Db vamp. I don't even know if the organ is playing the root note in that Abm7 chord.

I'm just really familiar with that i-IV sound. Our band uses it in almost every song.
Quote by AlanHB
Just remember that there are no boring scales, just boring players.

Gear

Bach Stradivarius 37G
Charvel So Cal
Fender Dimension Bass
Hartke HyDrive 210c
Ibanez BL70
Laney VC30
Tokai TB48
Yamaha FG720S-12
Yamaha P115
#16
Quote by MaggaraMarine
You could also look at it as an unresolved ii-V.
I'm just really familiar with that sound.
Yeah I guess that makes sense, I am not overly familiar with those sounds, I just really liked the unresolved-ness of the track?. (sorry not my best choice of words).
but cheers!
#17
Well it does resolve, but its a modal framework, it just doesn't go anywhere. (In a good way)

Coincidentally, that thread I linked explains that in full.
"There are two styles of music. Good music and bad music." -Duke Ellington

"If you really think about it, the guitar is a pointless instrument." - Robert Fripp
#18
Quote by Jet Penguin
The Locrian mode is not real.


With your permission? this quote is just willing_ itself to become my new signature!!
(I was gonna ask via PM but thought best to ask here in the light of day.)
any objections?
#19
You can have it on the condition that if you get asked about it, you link the thread explaining why.

Also I have now officially been sigged. First of many.
"There are two styles of music. Good music and bad music." -Duke Ellington

"If you really think about it, the guitar is a pointless instrument." - Robert Fripp
#20
Quote by Jet Penguin
You can have it on the condition that if you get asked about it, you link the thread explaining why.

Also I have now officially been sigged. First of many.

Last edited by tonibet72 at Jan 25, 2015,
#21
Oh HELL YES.
"There are two styles of music. Good music and bad music." -Duke Ellington

"If you really think about it, the guitar is a pointless instrument." - Robert Fripp
#24
Quote by Jet Penguin
Also, The Locrian mode is not real. Without a P5 in the scale, you cannot tonicize the root.
Question: Then where does that leave the diminished scales, as they too are with out a P5?

Dumb example but please hear this. (ten seconds max!)
youtube.com/watch?v=ghgDVT0k-Fs&t=0m09s

Obviously I don't know enough about diminished scales and wot-not, but was wondering about their lack of a P5 with (how'd you put it) and tonicize-ation, and if the riff/lick on youtube holds any relevance here?

Best get a few facts in the right order if i'm (you're) to proudly defend my new found signature!

all jokes aside ...if:

Locrian (No P5) = NO GOOD! (or not real, as you put it),
Diminished (and I can think of at least three), also No P5 = USED ALL THE TIME.
(if Whole Tone is a diminished type scale?).

Q: Why and what's the essential difference here?

Edit: FYI: I have read through both yours and JRF's Mode posts'... but still lacking clarity in this instance though!

Thanks!
Last edited by tonibet72 at Jan 28, 2015,
#25
Lucky duck you, I have a diminished scale mega thread!

https://www.ultimate-guitar.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1666002

The lack of a P5 in a mode does not prevent its use. It prevents us from establishing scale degree 1 as the root.

Without a P5, we cannot make the B in B Locrian sound like the root. Everything you play in so-called "B Locrian" will sound like E Phyrigan.

Don't believe me? Try it for yourself, improvise a solo in "B Locrian." Can't be done.

The reason a diminished scale "works" is because we are not using it to establish tonal, functional harmony, but rather to color and accent existing harmony, or potentially create new harmony.

There's a difference between using scales/modes as foundations for a piece (where Locrian isn't "real") and using them as "colors" over traditional harmony (where the Locrian formation does have a use)

Let me know if that makes sense.
"There are two styles of music. Good music and bad music." -Duke Ellington

"If you really think about it, the guitar is a pointless instrument." - Robert Fripp