#1
I realise the question I'm asking may have been asked before but possibly not in this way, so I thought I'd start a new thread. I'm a rhythm guitarist in a sludge/doom metal band. My lead guitarist is complaining he cannot cut through my rhythm sound when we rehearse but instead of finding ways to cut through, he is telling me my sound needs modifying. We both have the same amps (Orange CR120c) and my channel 2 dirty setting is to have the gain between 3/4 and 7/8' my tone at around 3/4, bass around 5/8, mids at around 1/4 to 3/8 with the channel vol at just under a half and my master vol in rehearsals at just over 1/2. So I don't think I'm particularly saturating my sound, however he claims he cannot cut through and I should knock the vol down on my guitar when he solos. Surely it's the other way round and he just needs his channel vol slightly higher than mine, but he swears blind my sound is the one that needs to change. I'm not adverse to doing some tweaking but on the other hand I don't want to compromise my rhythm sound. Am I going mad or should it be him who tweaks his sound to cut through mine when he solos?
#2
Yes, new post is good, just next time please divide your message in paragraphs, that was painful to read and use the same "scale" when referring to knobs, say on a scale from 1 to 10, it's a bit painful to read it that way

Try knocking your gain down a bit, else you're likely gonna sound muddy.
How's your treble set?
That might be a problem as well, try and lower them just in case, else you're gonna fill too much of the part of the spectrum the lead guitar's supposed to occupy.

Also for everybody's sake raise your mids.

Then, tell your lead guitarist to lower the bass and raise the highs, possibly raise the gain.
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#3
Make him adjust his own tone. It' snot your job to make sure he gets his time in the spotlight. Tell him to buy a tube screamer or clean boost and get over it.
Originally posted by primusfan
When you crank up the gain to 10 and switch to the lead channel, it actually sounds like you are unjustifiably bombing an innocent foreign land.


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#4
Quote by ibanezguitars44
Make him adjust his own tone. It' snot

+1



I don't gig but my limited experience in this area tells me that one of you needs to get a different amp.

I would personally be willing to help you do that
#5
Quote by Spambot_2
Yes, new post is good, just next time please divide your message in paragraphs, that was painful to read and use the same "scale" when referring to knobs, say on a scale from 1 to 10, it's a bit painful to read it that way

Try knocking your gain down a bit, else you're likely gonna sound muddy.
How's your treble set?
That might be a problem as well, try and lower them just in case, else you're gonna fill too much of the part of the spectrum the lead guitar's supposed to occupy.

Also for everybody's sake raise your mids.

Then, tell your lead guitarist to lower the bass and raise the highs, possibly raise the gain.


Thanks for the answer, sorry about the lack of paragraphs!

I'll try what you've said but I still wonder whether he is putting enough effort into getting his sound over mine, admittedly my sound is pretty fat but there is room for him to dial I over it. We're a doom band after all so the rhythm sound should sound 'big'
#6
The problem is that you have the same amp. It just sounds like you're one thing and neither stands out. One of you has to either change your sound fairly drastically or get a different amp. Or you could both change your sound. Rhythm cuts the treble and Lead cuts the bass. It's not quite that simple but you get the idea.
#7
Quote by Spambot_2

Try knocking your gain down a bit, else you're likely gonna sound muddy.
How's your treble set?
That might be a problem as well, try and lower them just in case, else you're gonna fill too much of the part of the spectrum the lead guitar's supposed to occupy.

Also for everybody's sake raise your mids.

Then, tell your lead guitarist to lower the bass and raise the highs, possibly raise the gain.


I agree.
If that helps, it probably wont hurt your lead player to invest in a boost of some kind pedal help cut through more at key times; a EQ, treble boost, tubescreamer, clean boost kind of things
but I recon BOTH of you should carefully investigate your EQ settings before y'all spend any more dosh.
#8
I was going to suggest a boost pedal as well. Or maybe he just isn't simply loud enough.

Also different heads aren't a bad idea, and honestly it would make you guys sound bigger to have different heads.
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#9
I support the theory that since you're both using the same amp your guitars blend together too much and you sound like one guitar. I'd bet the audience hears them both together as well. One of you should get a different amp. I'm sure a boost/od would help, but if I were you I'd use it as an excuse to upgrade amps.
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#10
If he is playing lead, he needs to boost his mids or he will never be heard unless he is extremely loud compared to the rest of the band.

Having different amps can help alot also
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#11
Lead guitarist needs to cut through? Tell him to boost his mids on his EQ.

You don't need to change your amps just your EQing.
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#12
Your lead player is right.

One of the hardest things for newb guitarists coming out of their bedroom practice environments to learn in a band situation is that you have to leave space for the other instruments. And that means sonically. Otherwise there's just a wall of boring noise. Dial back the gain, dial back the volume, leave spaces where you're NOT playing at all. And your lead player needs to find a sound and a space in the music where you aren't. You need to complement each other, like meshing gears.
#13
Quote by dspellman
Your lead player is right.

One of the hardest things for newb guitarists coming out of their bedroom practice environments to learn in a band situation is that you have to leave space for the other instruments. And that means sonically. Otherwise there's just a wall of boring noise. Dial back the gain, dial back the volume, leave spaces where you're NOT playing at all. And your lead player needs to find a sound and a space in the music where you aren't. You need to complement each other, like meshing gears.

Nope, the lead guitarist needs to make his own sound. no mids=shit sound

Come on, you use bullshit modelers and powered wedges when your not using crappy carvin shit Oh yeah that is what you do like
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#14
Quote by Robbgnarly
Nope, the lead guitarist needs to make his own sound. no mids=shit sound

Come on, you use bullshit modelers and powered wedges when your not using crappy carvin shit Oh yeah that is what you do like

That's kinda assholian man. You're joking right?
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Last edited by lucky1978 at Jan 24, 2015,
#15
Quote by lucky1978
That's kinda assholian man. You're joking right?

ofcourse
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#16
i don't honestly understand why you both have the same amp. it certainly doesn't help. don't scoop your mids.

i am with rob. thats his problem. he needs to do it himself.

but when i play with different guitarists, generally one is slightly more scooped the other more mid oriented. just a notch or two here and there.

he needs a boost. or maybe something just for leads.

i may recommend a fulltone fulldrive. he can have OD on all the time to tighten, and the boost to kick up a solo.
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#17
Here you go!


Other than that probably play around with your EQ settings as the guys above me said.
#18
Both of you are wrong.
Sonically, you need to give him a space to do his thing.
Sonically, its his job to find that space to play in.
You both need to find EQ settings that play well together but are different.

Tell your lead guitarist to get a treble booster to use during solos/lead playing.

Also, both of you having the same amps, you both playing in the same sonic spectrum.
Both of you need to play around with your EQ setting and find ones that complement each other, not fight each other.


Yeah, I know, i used the word sonic too many times
Last edited by CodeMonk at Jan 24, 2015,
#20
its unfortunate you both have the same amp. thats probably causing a lot of the issue. its totally his problem. he should change his tone. that means, EQ different, and probably swap speakers. that will change his base tone.

then i would say anything else to help, better lead boost pedal, pickup change etc. if hes a lead player, he should buy the things that make him be able to be a lead player.

what i am hearing is that you are just a really dominant, full, awesome rythym player and he cant compensate.
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#21
Quote by JaymzDead
I'm not adverse to doing some tweaking but on the other hand I don't want to compromise my rhythm sound.


This is the mentality that everyone begins with, when it comes to mixing. They think of the separate sounds, and want them all to sound great, and it's human nature to just think to get it all sounding good, each their own, and layer them on top.

This is not the case. The whole should sound good. An individual part on its own doesn't matter. Every professionally produce record you hear, has been mixed that way. They compromise the single sound of one instrument for the good of the whole.

A lot of time, you'll hear a song start with just a simple piano on its own, or a guitar, and the lows are all rolled off, a lot. The instrument sounds thin, but it's ok, they are all like that, and we don't mind, because when everything else comes in, it all sounds so great.

If you did an A/B comparison of just the piano, sure you could find a more full sounding piano, but you won't miss the deep lows on an intro like that, and in an A/B when everything kicks in, the rolled off piano will be far superior.

You want everything to have its own pocket in the frequency spectrum. It depends on the song. If your rhythm part is more kind of high rhythm, like a funk kind of thing, then roll off all the bottom. If it is more a kind of accent with the bass, punching in, then you might want more mids.

Make sure the bassist has most of the higher frequencies all rolled off. The focus will be the solo, so that's where your priority wants to be for tone, but even then what you want to hear, just the guitar soloing on its own, and what you want it to be when the whole band is playing, is not the same.

It's just that way. A band is a sum of parts. The sum will be better if the focus of every member is the overall end result and not how much spotlight they get or their own tone whatever.
#22
+1^

i may have an example. listen to anything off of Lamb of God's Ashes of the Wake. they are both using MKIV's. setups aren't much different. the amps are just EQ'd differently. i have seen them on four occasions and they carry great just like the album. it was a few years back though.

but again they have a rather unique riff structure than a lot of metal bands (back then for sure, i don't really follow newer metal bands).

why the hell do you have the same amp? that is the biggest problem. but who should get i new one i wouldn't know how to address it.

what guitars and pickups are you guys using? (i don't want to hear both EMG81's because i would have to smack you on the back of your head). but that would only go so far. just like boosts (they would go farther). but you may already be using them, i don't know.
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#23
hmmmm.... lots of bands have guitar players that use the same amps. geez just about every band in the 70s used marshalls. the amp isn't the issue. as mentioned EQing is more the problem. seems like both players are trying to sound as thick as possible which also gets in the way when combined. the heavy sound comes from the two guitars together and doesn't have to be achieved individually. this is where a lot of guys mess up. you hear the really heavy sound on the record and that is the tone you try for yourself. ease up on the distortion and have the lead player get an overdrive for leads. then turn down a little. I'm guessing that you guys are competing with each other to be the loudest. balanced sound is the best way to go.

when working on your sound with band get a friend to play your guitar while you stand a ways back to hear how it blends in with the rest of the band from an audience perspective. you'll be surprised often when the tone you thought was great on stage sounds like crap out in the audience.
#24
These are my points on what you can do(just take my words carefully, as I have never gigged yet):

1.You need to change your amps.

2.For his solos he needs a bit more treble to cut through. I also recommend an od like a Digitech Bad Monkey on the cheap, or a Maxon Od if your budget is a bit bigger.

3.Technically because he is playing the solos and has the role of the lead guitarist, he should have a tad more mids that you.

4. Tell the tosser to get a TS for his solos, not you to drop your volume.

That's all. Have fun in your band dude
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Last edited by Fryderyczek at Jan 25, 2015,
#25
Quote by Fryderyczek
These are my points on what you can do(just take my words carefully, as I have never gigged yet):

1.You need to change your amps.

2.For his solos he needs a bit more treble to cut through. I also recommend an od like a Digitech Bad Monkey on the cheap, or a Maxon Od if your budget is a bit bigger.

3.Technically because he is playing the solos and has the role of the lead guitarist, he should have a tad more mids that you.

4. Tell the tosser to get a TS for his solos, not you to drop your volume.

That's all. Have fun in your band dude


1. Not at all, lots of bands play with the same amps and have no issues, it is an EQ issue.
2. not a bad call on the boost
3.the EQ should be different.
4. same as #2
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#26
Quote by Robbgnarly
1. Not at all, lots of bands play with the same amps and have no issues, it is an EQ issue.
2. not a bad call on the boost
3.the EQ should be different.
4. same as #2

So, everything excep 1 was good?
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#28
Quote by Fryderyczek
So, everything excep 1 was good?

Yeah, but you were not wrong either. Using amps with different voicings can make it much easier to separate the guitars. It is not a necessity though.

I can think of quite a few off hand that all use Recto's or Marshall's. And they don't always do it, but I have seen lots of them using the same amps live.
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Last edited by Robbgnarly at Jan 25, 2015,
#29
Quote by Robbgnarly
Yeah, but you were not wrong either. Using amps with different voicings can make it much easier to separate the guitars. It is not a necessity though.

I can think of quite a few off hand that all use Recto's or Marshall's. And they don't always do it, but I have seen lots of them using the same amps live.

IMO it's just better to have 1 guitarist in a band. It would be easier to communicate with the other band members and it would be much less hassle to set things up. I know the second guitarist might lay down rhythm during solos, but why not do it Van Halen style?

that's just my 2 cents(Kinda off the topic, but oh well)
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#30
Quote by Fryderyczek
IMO it's just better to have 1 guitarist in a band. It would be easier to communicate with the other band members and it would be much less hassle to set things up. I know the second guitarist might lay down rhythm during solos, but why not do it Van Halen style?

that's just my 2 cents(Kinda off the topic, but oh well)

Yes and no.
I am the only guitarist in my hardcore-punk band but there are 2 guitarists in my prog band. But there are things I just can not do sonically with me as the only guitarist

The key is finding people you click with. the drummer is the same for both bands and we have played for over 10 yrs together so we can follow each other and predict when and what type of change
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#31
Right, sorry been away so haven't been back to this thread in a while. Thanks for all the replies thus far.

To answer the amp thing, we went to buy amps at the same time. Our lead guitarist was going to buy a Fender Frontman or a Marshall and use his Korg multi FX but after he heard me playing the Orange, he wanted the same. Understandable (to me anyway) as the tone is far superior to the Fenders and Marshalls that are in the same price bracket.

In answer to the guitar/pickup query, my main guitar is an ESP M252 with Duncan Design HB101/102 (the equivalent of a JB/59 set) and the lead guitarist uses an ESP Viper 50 with whatever the standard pups are out of the box. Ironically the problem seems to be worse when I use my spare guitar which is another Viper 50, but mine has an SD Dimebucker (fitted by the previous owner) in the bridge. So no EMGs, don't worry!

Personally I agree with the view that having the same amp shouldn't matter, as has been said; how many bands just use Marshalls or Mesa Boogies? Down use Orange across the board (or they did when Kirk Winstein was in the band) and this didn't seem to harm their sound.

We are going to try adjusting the EQ and I have also suggested that our lead guitarist buys a boost pedal as well and we'll see where that takes us...
#32
Quote by JaymzDead

Personally I agree with the view that having the same amp shouldn't matter, as has been said; how many bands just use Marshalls or Mesa Boogies? Down use Orange across the board (or they did when Kirk Winstein was in the band) and this didn't seem to harm their sound.

We are going to try adjusting the EQ and I have also suggested that our lead guitarist buys a boost pedal as well and we'll see where that takes us...



Just because two amps are of the same brand, doesn't mean they are the same model. And yes, having the exact same amp can be a deterrent if you're not properly EQing them. Part of the problem could very well be you're fighting over the same frequencies.

I was going to refrain from posting, but since you've revived the thread and I just read everything up to this point it would be a waste of time not to contribute some advice.

Your EQ and Amp settings need adjustment.
Stop drastically scooping out your mids and turn down some of the lows.

The guitar sits in the mid-range of the frequency spectrum. By scooping your mids you are effectively taking yourself out of the area you should ideally be sitting in withing the confines of the mix of the band. Because you're not cutting though the mix as you should, you're probably turning up your amp to be heard, which is just adding more clutter to the mix and making the problem worse.

As for the low end, that's where your bass player sits in the mix. You don't need to go overboard on the lows even if you're aiming for a sludgy tone. Leave more room for the bass, up your mids, and EQ the highs to taste. Also, keep in mind that excessive gain eats up space in the spectrum too, so being a rhythm player, knock the gain down to accommodate.

As for the lead tone - boost the mids and aim for an overall brighter tone than the rhythm, perhaps adding some highs if needed.

Amp placement

Whether at a gig or at practice, the way your band (amps, drums, PA) is physically aligned is going to have an affect on the mix and how each individual member is going to be able to hear each aspect of the mix.

At rehearsals, I prefer to have my amp pointed either towards my front or side rather than situated behind me. I'm able to hear my tone and playing more accurately and adjust any volume or tone settings without having any adverse affects on the mix for someone else.

Try situating amps so that your amp faces either your front or side, and preferably angled so that your lead guitarist can hear you well enough.
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#33
In Down Pepper used a Mesa Cal+ 50 for Down Nola. Whilst Kirk used Randal RG100ES's for a while(At least for Crowbar). But most of the stuff I think is a Rockerverb.
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#34
There's an old saying that came to mind for some reason while reading all this...

If you wanna run with the big dogs you gotta piss in the tall grass.

OK...don't know why but that was my first thought.

Rhythm guitar...sounds like this is a metal band, the one biggest mistake I've seen people make is too much distortion/saturation. That makes the sound muddy and hard for another guitar to cut through. Start with about half the distortion you use when practicing at home and go from there. Cut back the bass some, push the mids a little. That thick, heavy sound is great but it also makes it difficult for someone else to get a lead to cut through. Let the bass guitar handle the bass...

Lead guitar...should almost always be brighter, (there are exceptions) and should always have some room to push the volume a little higher for leads, so the lead stands out. I've never been in a 2 guitar band that I didn't have to play more rhythm than lead, and when playing rhythm parts you have to cut the volume back some, period. So he needs to be able to accept the fact that he needs to adjust too, not just you. Piss in the tall grass...

I don't buy the crap that both having the same amps is even a small part of the problem...AC/DC, Aerosmith, REO Speedwagon, Scorpions, Judas Priest, 38 Special, Styx, and a lot of other bands I've either seen in person or on TV have all used the same amps, usually Marshalls. Sometimes it's all Fenders...Set them for different EQ and they will work. Rhythm guitar should always keep the volume down a little so the lead guitar has some headroom. Piss in the tall grass.

Instead of quibbling over it, put your heads together and figure out what BOTH of you need to do to get the sound right.
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