#1
So, I got a new amp a few weeks ago (I'll have a NGD soon that includes it, as there is a ton of other gear to post about as well). It's a Fender Super 210 (1990-1993), two 12AX7s, one 12AT7 and two 6L6s with a fixed bias. It sounds absolutely great and accepts pedals well, so I'm not sure what all the negative fuss about the red knob series is really about. However, there is one fatal flaw with the amp: it is too damn quiet and I think one of the speakers is about to blow. I have trouble keeping up with my other guitarist's JC-120 at band volumes, and I get a lot of flubbing/farting noises at high volumes (especially with dirt pedals). I've already retubed with a fresh set of JJ's, but I still have to dime the volume to be heard in the mix.

The speakers currently in the amp look like the stock Fender-relabeled Jensens and I would like to swap them out with something of a much higher wattage and efficiency rating. Also, I would like to tame the mids a little bit as my other guitarist is EQ'd mid heavy and I like to scoop mine a little bit anyways (when you crank them, it's just waaaay too much on this amp) while boosting the treble and bass. My other guitarist cuts back on his highs and lows and cranks his mids a little bit.

So, my budget is around $150 for both 10" speakers but is certainly flexible, so I was thinking something from Warehouse or Eminence. I found a thread through googling where someone asked this exact same question, and an Eminence Ramrod was the only suggestion, so that's what I have to go on. We play a mix of indie (as loose as that term is) and heavier, shoegazy-y "wall of sound" stuff.

THE MAIN PROBLEM I HAVE IS KNOWING THE IMPEDANCE I NEED. I can't find a manual online, no websites (AmpWares, etc) list the impedance of the speakers, and nothing is on the label of the speakers. I have contacted Fender for a PDF manual, but they haven't gotten back to me. On the back of the amp, there is an Aux Speaker out that is listed for 8 ohms. So do I need two 8 ohm speakers, two 16 ohm speakers, or two 4 ohm speakers?

Any help is greatly appreciated

edit: the amp is rated at 60 watts. I'd like each speaker to be somewhere around 50-75w with a db rating of over 100 or just under it.
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Last edited by CullenT at Jan 27, 2015,
#2
do you want a more american or british type of tone?

I'm not familiar with your amp so I can't help with the impedance thing (and I can only guess how certain speakers will sound with it).

Cutting your mids probably won't help you to match up volume-wise with the other guitar player (but you probably know that already).
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Quote by K33nbl4d3
I'll have to put the Classic T models on my to-try list. Shame the finish options there are Anachronism Gold, Nuclear Waste and Aged Clown, because in principle the plaintop is right up my alley.

Quote by K33nbl4d3
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#3
Quote by Dave_Mc
do you want a more american or british type of tone?

I'm not familiar with your amp so I can't help with the impedance thing (and I can only guess how certain speakers will sound with it).

Cutting your mids probably won't help you to match up volume-wise with the other guitar player (but you probably know that already).


I've experimented with boosting the mids, and it hasn't helped at all. I don't scoop them to any crazy extent, usually my settings are treble at 7, mids at 4-4.5, bass around 6-6.5 so they aren't down to 2 or anything like that.

There was a Jensen speaker replacement page that had the amp listed, and most of the speakers were 8 ohms for the Super 210, so that's my assumption since the external cab jack is rated for 8 ohms as well.

As far as the tone goes, I'm really not too picky about speaker voicing. Just something that will have a lot of clean headroom and that is very efficient as well as LOUD. I love the Fender clean tone this thing gives, so I might want to stick with an American-type speaker.

edit: pictures for reference



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Last edited by CullenT at Jan 27, 2015,
#4
ok

i'm not too well up on 10s

the copperhead is pretty loud and pretty american-sounding. though maybe too vintage. the ragin cajun might be worth a look (but i haven't tried it).

i'm not sure about the impedance thing, either. a lot of the eminence 10s are only available in the one impedance, so that might complicate things a bit.
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Quote by K33nbl4d3
I'll have to put the Classic T models on my to-try list. Shame the finish options there are Anachronism Gold, Nuclear Waste and Aged Clown, because in principle the plaintop is right up my alley.

Quote by K33nbl4d3
Presumably because the CCF (Combined Corksniffing Forces) of MLP and Gibson forums would rise up against them, plunging the land into war.

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Et tu, br00tz?
#5
Nice amp. As I recall it came with 2- 8ohm speakers and as you guessed they were not terribly efficient. When in doubt, put a meter on and test them.

A popular replacement for Fender 10" is the Rajin Cajun (no affiliation)
It sounds good and is damn loud for a tenner.
http://www.eminence.com/pdf/Ragin_Cajun.pdf

Another favorite is Weber for very accurate reproductions of 60s Chicago Jensens.


One thing to help get in your live mix is to add tilt legs or get it up off the floor and pointed at your head. I do this all the time now with every amp and hear so much better with it pointing at my ears instead of knees. Every amp should tilt back I think.

If your bass gets flabby when cranked up, just roll it off a bit until she cleans up. This is common with open back cabs if you exceed the limited dampening. Amps need more bass when we play quieter due to the way our ears work. If it flabs out loud, roll it back a tad.
"Your sound is in your hands as much as anything. It's the way you pick, and the way you hold the guitar, more than it is the amp or the guitar you use." -- Stevie Ray Vaughan

"Anybody can play. The note is only 20 percent. The attitude of the motherfucker who plays it is 80 percent." -- Miles Davis

Guthrie on tone: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zmohdG9lLqY
Last edited by Cajundaddy at Jan 27, 2015,
#6
I may have to read your OP again Cullen but if I had to guess I'd say this. Amps like their loads to be in parallel (and balanced impedance wise). If that is the case, then I'd say the amp's internal speakers are giving a total of an 8 ohm load total. That would match the Aux Speaker Out for a cab at 8 ohms as well. IF you were to do that the amp will be seeing a 4 ohm load (not that you are doing that).

So if this is true, that means the 2 internal speakers are either:

2 - 4 ohm speakers wired in series for 8 total (or)
2 - 16 ohm speakers wired in parallel for 8 total

Can you just identify what the speakers say?

If that doesn't work, you might be able to determine what ohms the speakers are by looking at the wiring (assuming my idea above is correct).


See here...


Last edited by 311ZOSOVHJH at Jan 27, 2015,
#7
From the pic it looks like parallel wiring so 8 or 16 ohm speakers. A meter will tell for sure.
"Your sound is in your hands as much as anything. It's the way you pick, and the way you hold the guitar, more than it is the amp or the guitar you use." -- Stevie Ray Vaughan

"Anybody can play. The note is only 20 percent. The attitude of the motherfucker who plays it is 80 percent." -- Miles Davis

Guthrie on tone: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zmohdG9lLqY
#8


Alright guys, from this picture it really looks like it is wired in parallel, though a second set of eyes may be needed to confirm this. Both wires from the chassis go directly to the speaker on the right (the one that still has the label on it).
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#9
Didn't even see that CajunDaddy.

Yeah - I'm guessing 2 - 16 ohm speakers wired in parallel for an 8 ohm load total.

A meter will get you in the right range. If the meter reads anywhere between 8 and 16 without going over 16 then it is probably 16. It is not a super accurate way of measuring but better than nothing. What I'm saying is that if your meter reads 9, you may actually have a 16 ohm speaker vs an 8 ohm one.
Last edited by 311ZOSOVHJH at Jan 27, 2015,
#10
Quote by 311ZOSOVHJH
Didn't even see that CajunDaddy.

Yeah - I'm guessing 2 - 16 ohm speakers wired in parallel for an 8 ohm load total.

A meter will get you in the right range. If the meter reads anywhere between 8 and 16 without going over 16 then it is probably 16. It is not a super accurate way of measuring but better than nothing. What I'm saying is that if your meter reads 9, you may actually have a 16 ohm speaker vs an 8 ohm one.


Yep, given the picture I posted above and comparing it with your diagrams (thanks for that by the way, really really helpful), it looks to be parallel. I'll check with a meter before I order the speakers just to make sure. Any recommendations on a relatively inexpensive and accurate meter? I don't have on laying around.

Thanks for all the help guys. I see that the Rajin' Cajun is only offered in an 8 ohm variant. Any other Eminence or Warehouse suggestions for a loud and efficient speaker 50w or above that comes in 16 ohm to keep with the Fender clean tone? I get all of my drive from pedals. Or would it be possible to instead wire the speakers in series and go with a different impedance rating on the speakers?

edit:

http://www.amazon.com/Etekcity-Digital-Voltmeter-Ohmmeter-Multimeter/dp/B00B7CS3UY/ref=lp_15707471_1_3?s=automotive&ie=UTF8&qid=1422411417&sr=1-3

Would that be sufficient? I need to order a new soldering iron and some velcro anyway.
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Last edited by CullenT at Jan 27, 2015,
#11
If it were mine I would get 8 ohm and wire parallel. Fender tube amps run all day long at 4 ohms without breaking a sweat. There are a few exceptions but very few.
"Your sound is in your hands as much as anything. It's the way you pick, and the way you hold the guitar, more than it is the amp or the guitar you use." -- Stevie Ray Vaughan

"Anybody can play. The note is only 20 percent. The attitude of the motherfucker who plays it is 80 percent." -- Miles Davis

Guthrie on tone: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zmohdG9lLqY
#12
Welp, since I've got one of the red-headed (or red-knobbed) stepchildren of Fender, I'm a little wary of running it differently. As long as it won't fry my output tranny, I'm comfortable with it though.
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#13
Yeah - I was thinking before I read too deep or saw any pictures that this is going to be a 4 ohm deal because a lot of old Fenders anyway were wired for 4.

What options for impedance do you have on the back of the amp again?

Will you ever run an extension cab?

I'm not a speaker expert by any means - far from it. Someone like ragingkitty or gumbilicious would be 2 experts I can think of. I'm thinking something from Weber.

For stuff I've tried - I can only recommend the Celestion Classic Lead 80. Everything else is not what you are looking for.
#14
It looks like the speakers are out of phase with each other - the positive from one going to the negative of the other speaker.
#15
Quote by mcamp12302
It looks like the speakers are out of phase with each other - the positive from one going to the negative of the other speaker.


Good eye, they do look out of phase. Might sound a lot better by switching leads on the left one.
"Your sound is in your hands as much as anything. It's the way you pick, and the way you hold the guitar, more than it is the amp or the guitar you use." -- Stevie Ray Vaughan

"Anybody can play. The note is only 20 percent. The attitude of the motherfucker who plays it is 80 percent." -- Miles Davis

Guthrie on tone: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zmohdG9lLqY
#17
you aren't going to have a bunch of options with 10" speakers. the only company i know of that offers a variety of 10" speakers would be weber.

edit: definitely check the out of phase issue. i wouldn't have even caught that, damn good eye on the guy that did. it can def cause volume issues, maybe might fix your problem without a swap
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Last edited by gumbilicious at Jan 27, 2015,
#18
Quote by mcamp12302
It looks like the speakers are out of phase with each other - the positive from one going to the negative of the other speaker.


Wow, great find. I'll definitely check that and go from there.

Quote by 311ZOSOVHJH
Yeah - I was thinking before I read too deep or saw any pictures that this is going to be a 4 ohm deal because a lot of old Fenders anyway were wired for 4.

What options for impedance do you have on the back of the amp again?

Will you ever run an extension cab?

I'm not a speaker expert by any means - far from it. Someone like ragingkitty or gumbilicious would be 2 experts I can think of. I'm thinking something from Weber.

For stuff I've tried - I can only recommend the Celestion Classic Lead 80. Everything else is not what you are looking for.


Like I said, the speaker out just says 8 ohms and the speakers themselves aren't labeled. So I'll have to wait for a multimeter if I end up doing the swap. Doesn't the Classic Lead 80 only come in a 12" variant?

Also, I most likely won't be running an extension cab (at least for now).

edit:
Quote by Cajundaddy
Good eye, they do look out of phase. Might sound a lot better by switching leads on the left one.


So just switch the white and black wires on the positive/negative terminal on the left speaker in the picture posted above? That's it?
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Last edited by CullenT at Jan 27, 2015,
#19
Not sure on the Classic Lead 80 but you're probably right. Let some of these other guys help you select a speaker. Contact Weber - they are great to work with.

Any digital multimeter in the $20-$40 range will work - like the kinds you find at RadioShack.
#20
Awesome, will do. I work from home and just switched the wires on the left speaker. I'll come back and post results later tonight once I'm off or tomorrow.
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#21
Quote by CullenT
Awesome, will do. I work from home and just switched the wires on the left speaker. I'll come back and post results later tonight once I'm off or tomorrow.

Hope it all works out. Maybe you won't need new speakers at all. Good to see you back again. I look forward to your NGD.

#22
Quote by CullenT


So just switch the white and black wires on the positive/negative terminal on the left speaker in the picture posted above? That's it?


Yep, just make sure both black leads go to the same polarity +/- and same for white. Switch them while the amp is off and turn it on and test. You can't hurt it, so whichever sounds better, fuller, with more bass is "in polarity".
"Your sound is in your hands as much as anything. It's the way you pick, and the way you hold the guitar, more than it is the amp or the guitar you use." -- Stevie Ray Vaughan

"Anybody can play. The note is only 20 percent. The attitude of the motherfucker who plays it is 80 percent." -- Miles Davis

Guthrie on tone: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zmohdG9lLqY
#23
I think WGS offers a few 10'' models. I have their classic lead and g12h clones and really like them both.
#24
Quote by 311ZOSOVHJH
Hope it all works out. Maybe you won't need new speakers at all. Good to see you back again. I look forward to your NGD.



Thanks 311! It's good to be back. Once my board gets here and I get it all wired up, I'll have a NGD thread for it.

Quote by Cajundaddy
Yep, just make sure both black leads go to the same polarity +/- and same for white. Switch them while the amp is off and turn it on and test. You can't hurt it, so whichever sounds better, fuller, with more bass is "in polarity".


So I tested it both ways a few times just now. You guys were right about it being out of phase so good catch to mcamp12302! I get a ton more bass response at lower volumes. I cranked it to 8 for about 30 seconds and had the neighbors' dog barking. So hopefully I won't need new speakers. I'll test it at my next practice and see what happens as far as the flubbiness goes.

Quote by mcamp12302
I think WGS offers a few 10'' models. I have their classic lead and g12h clones and really like them both.


If I still end up wanting a replacement, I'll definitely look into those. Thanks mcamp for catching the out of phase issue! It seems to have fixed things. Hopefully I can save that $150 and put it towards guitar mods or a Ditto X2.
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#26
Quote by Cajundaddy

A popular replacement for Fender 10" is the Rajin Cajun (no affiliation)


hahahahahahaha

Quote by mcamp12302
It looks like the speakers are out of phase with each other - the positive from one going to the negative of the other speaker.


well spotted I'd never have even noticed that (truth be told I'm not even sure I knew it had to be like that, when I swap speakers I just put everything back the way it was )
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Quote by K33nbl4d3
I'll have to put the Classic T models on my to-try list. Shame the finish options there are Anachronism Gold, Nuclear Waste and Aged Clown, because in principle the plaintop is right up my alley.

Quote by K33nbl4d3
Presumably because the CCF (Combined Corksniffing Forces) of MLP and Gibson forums would rise up against them, plunging the land into war.

Quote by T00DEEPBLUE
Et tu, br00tz?
Last edited by Dave_Mc at Jan 28, 2015,
#27
Quote by CullenT
Thanks 311! It's good to be back. Once my board gets here and I get it all wired up, I'll have a NGD thread for it.


So I tested it both ways a few times just now. You guys were right about it being out of phase so good catch to mcamp12302! I get a ton more bass response at lower volumes. I cranked it to 8 for about 30 seconds and had the neighbors' dog barking. So hopefully I won't need new speakers. I'll test it at my next practice and see what happens as far as the flubbiness goes.


If I still end up wanting a replacement, I'll definitely look into those. Thanks mcamp for catching the out of phase issue! It seems to have fixed things. Hopefully I can save that $150 and put it towards guitar mods or a Ditto X2.



Glad it seems to have fixed to problem. I did that to myself wiring a cab a few years ago, ever since then I am always looking for it.
#28
^ Yeah. the surest way never to make a certain mistake is to have already made it, unfortunately. You just hope you make it when it's not that important.

Glad to hear that sorted it (I missed that yesterday somehow )
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Quote by K33nbl4d3
I'll have to put the Classic T models on my to-try list. Shame the finish options there are Anachronism Gold, Nuclear Waste and Aged Clown, because in principle the plaintop is right up my alley.

Quote by K33nbl4d3
Presumably because the CCF (Combined Corksniffing Forces) of MLP and Gibson forums would rise up against them, plunging the land into war.

Quote by T00DEEPBLUE
Et tu, br00tz?
#29
Sorry to resurrect this, just wanted to say that the wire swap helped the tone of the amp immensely (coil split neck pickup gets very nice early Modest Mouse/Built To Spill tones and I love it), but the volume is still balls in a band setting. I'm diming the volume knob on the clean channel and still get overpowered. I can barely even hear myself. Just to test, I brought along a friend's 1x12 HRD and had zero issues with the volume at 5-6.

I've eliminated the possibility of bad tubes, tried plugging into the "power amp in" jack (which gave no noticeable volume increase), and even gave the amp some TLC (full potentiometer cleaning, tube socket cleaning, input jack cleaning, etc). The drive channel seems to be at the correct volume, but I didn't get this thing for the Fender drive channel. I couldn't find anything weird looking on the PCB or any of the components mounted to it, so I think it's one of the following:

1) Bad preamp cathode resistor
2) Faulty phase inverter
3) Open cathode bypass capacitors in preamp
4) Failing power filter capacitors
5) Failing or open series dropping resistor in the bypass networks leading to preamp stages
6) Failing bypass capacitor

Or any one of the other things that could go wrong. This falls way outside of my technical/troubleshooting ability, so I'm gonna call some amp shops in Austin tomorrow and get an appointment for an estimate. I really love the sound of this thing A LOT, and wouldn't even go this far if I didn't. I'll post results when I post my NAD/NGD/NPD thread (Which will now be further delayed as my board is coming in right when the amp will be in the shop). I just don't want to blow money on speakers when that isn't the problem.

I just wanted to thank all of you for your help with this issue. UG, and specifically GG&A, is my favorite place on the internet, and your help is the reason. This is the first time I've ever been burned with used gear, but this kind of problem is very easy to miss, so I can't be bitter about it.

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#30
^ Thanks for the kind words (not that I did much ). Yeah that's way outside my abilities (not that I have abilities ) too. Good luck with getting it fixed- as you said, it can be very easy to miss stuff, so don't beat yourself up too much.
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Quote by K33nbl4d3
I'll have to put the Classic T models on my to-try list. Shame the finish options there are Anachronism Gold, Nuclear Waste and Aged Clown, because in principle the plaintop is right up my alley.

Quote by K33nbl4d3
Presumably because the CCF (Combined Corksniffing Forces) of MLP and Gibson forums would rise up against them, plunging the land into war.

Quote by T00DEEPBLUE
Et tu, br00tz?
#31
Before you have someone dig into the electronics, try the amp with a different extension speaker and see if it makes a difference in volume. I suspect those stock speakers were pretty inefficient (94db). A pair of Ragins might be the ticket. Also if I remember correctly, gain into the clean channel was pretty low so adding a clean boost or OD pedal in front might add a lot to your volume.

FWIW, I gigged with a HRD for 5 years and on 5-6 clean channel it was loud as hell. I usually ran it on 4 (1st generation) in most gig situations unless the owner requested we turn down or leave without pay.
"Your sound is in your hands as much as anything. It's the way you pick, and the way you hold the guitar, more than it is the amp or the guitar you use." -- Stevie Ray Vaughan

"Anybody can play. The note is only 20 percent. The attitude of the motherfucker who plays it is 80 percent." -- Miles Davis

Guthrie on tone: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zmohdG9lLqY
Last edited by Cajundaddy at Feb 11, 2015,
#32
Quote by Cajundaddy
Before you have someone dig into the electronics, try the amp with a different extension speaker and see if it makes a difference in volume. I suspect those stock speakers were pretty inefficient (94db). A pair of Ragins might be the ticket. Also if I remember correctly, gain into the clean channel was pretty low so adding a clean boost or OD pedal in front might add a lot to your volume.


I tried it out with a friend's 4x10 bass cab and another friend's 2x12 with a drummer a few nights ago (had to encroach on their band practice but it had to be done ). Obviously with both of those it was pushing more air, but still way too quiet for diming the volume. I'll literally do anything to not have to take it to a tech, but I've exhausted all of the simple possibilities, so hopefully that will at least cut out some of the labor. I always play with a clean boost (BD-2 volume dimed, no gain or just a hair if I want it, tone at 9 o'clock), still nothing.

I'm taking it in this weekend, so hopefully I'll know what's up in a couple of days
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#33
"Quiet clean channel" is a common complaint with the Super 60 series amps. There may be a simple internal fix your tech will recommend. Another workaround is to dime the master on the drive channel and turn up the gain to taste. Lots of chatter on this:

http://www.thegearpage.net/board/showthread.php?t=587720&page=2
"Your sound is in your hands as much as anything. It's the way you pick, and the way you hold the guitar, more than it is the amp or the guitar you use." -- Stevie Ray Vaughan

"Anybody can play. The note is only 20 percent. The attitude of the motherfucker who plays it is 80 percent." -- Miles Davis

Guthrie on tone: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zmohdG9lLqY
#34
Hi, just found this thread, Ive owned a Super 60 combo since they came out...and Ive tried to love it. I really have. It has a GREAT clean channel (I play a MIA Strat, great match!) BUT as cajundaddy says, the quiet channel is inherent. I have heard that the EQ sectioin needs to be up at 10 on all T, M and B to get the most volume. And I suspect a more efficient speaker as well. (The stock Fender are Eminence, I would put maybe a Celestion V30 in there). The amp is notorious for not being tech-friendly in its design, or mod friendly for that matter. Tube swaps will really only alter tone, not volume. I have collected a bit of info over the years concerning these amps(send me a message and I'lll email you the info) but really, I upgraded to a different amp (Blackstar HT40 - has nice fenderish cleans and a a usable OD channel). But Ive never come across a simple fix for a tech to do...But if you find somone who can do something, please post, it would be great. And while your tech is in there, it may possibly be time to replace the 30 year old power caps. These degrade after a while. Hope this helps,
Cheers
Glenn
#35
You should be able to go to an auto zone and rent a multi meter for free.
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#36
You haven't changed the phase inverter, Cullen? Do that right away.
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#37
CullenTcompared to my Super 210 the speakers are wired out of phase which will reduce volume as they're working against each other. However, for some reason these amps are not loud on the clean channel. My 30w Peavey Delta Blues is much louder. Another thing is that, for some reason , the volume very dependent on the mid tone position. It needs to be at least half way.
#38
Quote by paulhicks1
CullenTcompared to my Super 210 the speakers are wired out of phase which will reduce volume as they're working against each other. However, for some reason these amps are not loud on the clean channel. My 30w Peavey Delta Blues is much louder. Another thing is that, for some reason , the volume very dependent on the mid tone position. It needs to be at least half way.


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2017-04-13 RUN AWAY from COMPUTERS!!! TCE? RANT ALERT!!!
2017-03-02 - Guitar Philosophy 1001- Be Prepared For the Situation (Thursday 2017-03-02)
2017-02-21 How to Hot-Rod the Hell of your Stratocaster for $50! (Tuesday 2017-2-21)
Resentments and Rambling from a Guitar Junkie
---> http://trashedengineering.blogspot.com/