#1
Hey all. Long time guitar player and Marshall guy, well until now. I just got a Soldano Hot Rod 50. Wondering if any of you have recommendations on cabs for this amp? I play in a punk-rock band (think Lillintons or Masked Intruder) and play a '71 SG most of the time. Thanks A TON!
Last edited by jagpie27 at Feb 17, 2015,
#2
Bogner uberkab or similar.
Name's Luca.

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#3
eminence v12s often work nicely with soldano-type circuits (at least they do with my jet city, which is, far as i'm aware, more or less a cheapo hot rod). so that might be worth a look as well.
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Quote by K33nbl4d3
I'll have to put the Classic T models on my to-try list. Shame the finish options there are Anachronism Gold, Nuclear Waste and Aged Clown, because in principle the plaintop is right up my alley.

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#4
All soldano cabs are loaded with eminence speakers, so something with those?
#5
Quote by Spambot_2
Bogner uberkab or similar.


Here's a question.
What, exactly, is the difference between a Bogner Uberkab and a Carvin 412?
Both are 30x30x14 (give or take half an inch in any direction). Both weigh about 90 lbs. Both have four good Celestion speakers. Both are well-built of heavy birch plywood.

The Carvin ships for about $399 (slight differences depending on the combination of speakers included). The Bogner ships for about $1100 (give or take $50 depending on...whatever). Add California sales tax (right around 10% depending on your location) and the bill is $440 or $1200 plus shipping.

Aside from the $700 difference in pricetag, what's different?
#6
Quote by dspellman
Here's a question.
What, exactly, is the difference between a Bogner Uberkab and a Carvin 412?
Both are 30x30x14 (give or take half an inch in any direction). Both weigh about 90 lbs. Both have four good Celestion speakers. Both are well-built of heavy birch plywood.

The Carvin ships for about $399 (slight differences depending on the combination of speakers included). The Bogner ships for about $1100 (give or take $50 depending on...whatever). Add California sales tax (right around 10% depending on your location) and the bill is $440 or $1200 plus shipping.

Aside from the $700 difference in pricetag, what's different?


I've got to be honest, having owned several 412's, some good, some not so good (usually because of crap speakers), I've wondered this myself.

It's a fsckin' wooden box of pretty consistent dimensions, it's not like there's a massive amount of audio engineering in the design.
“Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge.”
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#8
Quote by dspellman
Aside from the $700 difference in pricetag, what's different?
The sound.
The internal design.
Come on that's the external size, what's inside may vary considerably.

That's what I'm guessing at least, I haven't ever heard a carvin cab in person.

Thing is, say the orange PPC412 and the mesa recto 4x12" are the same size +- 1", and even though the speakers in them are slightly different they sound pretty different.

In a closed back design the position of the speakers relative to the cab "walls" is important, and even a tiny difference in the sturdy-ness of the baffle makes a difference.

All of these factors summed up are important to create a cab's sound.
Quote by Arby911
It's a fsckin' wooden box of pretty consistent dimensions, it's not like there's a massive amount of audio engineering in the design.
There's quite a lot of physics behind it.

In guitar cabs applications it doesn't matter that much 'cause a cab won't sound "bad" even if you don't pay attention to it, but if you do design a cab paying attention to all these factors + the kinda ones I mentioned above you end up getting a potentially better sounding cab.

Everyone makes that in different ways to achieve different sounds, hence different cabs sound different.

Of course, part of that $700 price difference is 'cause of the bogner logo.
Name's Luca.

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Clue: amplifiers amplify so don't turn it on if you need quiet.
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#9
Eminence V12's are the speaker of choice by Soldano

Krank rev 4x12's are loaded with V12's and are great cabs you can get for $300-$400 used, or you can just get a used Soldano cab and have a matching rig if you need that

To answer you dspellman, Carvin is a mediocre brand, not bad at all, but far from great. A Bogner ubercab sounds differently mostly because it has V30's and G12t75's in an X pattern stock. Besides you like fat chicks
2002 PRS CE22
2013 G&L ASAT Deluxe
2009 Epiphone G-400 (SH-4)
Marshall JCM2000 DSL100
Krank 1980 Jr 20watt
Krank Rev 4x12 (eminence V12)
GFS Greenie/Digitech Bad Monkey
Morley Bad Horsie 2
MXR Smart Gate
Last edited by Robbgnarly at Feb 17, 2015,
#10
Quote by Spambot_2
The sound.
The internal design.
Come on that's the external size, what's inside may vary considerably.


But it doesn't. I've actually been inside both (and about fifteen other 4x12 cabinets). I've got pictures to prove it.

Quote by Spambot_2
All of these factors summed up are important to create a cab's sound.
There's quite a lot of physics behind it.

In guitar cabs applications it doesn't matter that much 'cause a cab won't sound "bad" even if you don't pay attention to it, but if you do design a cab paying attention to all these factors + the kinda ones I mentioned above you end up getting a potentially better sounding cab.

Everyone makes that in different ways to achieve different sounds, hence different cabs sound different.

Of course, part of that $700 price difference is 'cause of the bogner logo.


There ya go. I'd be willing to bet that about $700 of that difference is the Bogner logo.
There's little to no physics behind a 4x12. The basic "design" hasn't changed, and was sketched out in chalk around four greenbacks laid face down on a cement floor by Jim Marshall back in the '60's. "About this by about this and about this deep" was the "design."

It was a terrible design because they really didn't understand much about the physics at all in those days. For starters, they found that the big single piece of back material was buzzing at a resonant frequency whenever they hit an F (I think). That frequency was coming from the measurement of the diagonal of the back. So they stuck a stick (you'll usually see a 2x2 or a 2x4 coming off the baffle to touch the back of the cabinet to keep it from vibrating) in the cabinet. Physics. There are better ways to keep that back from vibrating, but almost every cabinet maker puts the stick there. Or some variation of it. It's called a KLUDGE (def.: "an ill-assorted collection of parts assembled to fulfill a particular purpose")
Bogner has one. Carvin has one. Marshall has one. Orange has one. Mills Acoustic has a flat piece of wood with holes in it, and they market that as the "afterburner baffle." Woo.

All 4x12s beam treble, beginning at about 500Hz. THAT's the physics of the cabinet design. Crappy dispersion of high frequencies. In essence, the entire cabinet is a Jim Marshall kludge that was thrown against the wall and stuck. And guitar players have never questioned it.
#11
^ you really are an opinionated asshat.

Jim Marshall's design was so horrible that it only invented hardrock/metal. And yeas interior space has everything to do with how a cab sounds, I'd figure you'd even recognize that
2002 PRS CE22
2013 G&L ASAT Deluxe
2009 Epiphone G-400 (SH-4)
Marshall JCM2000 DSL100
Krank 1980 Jr 20watt
Krank Rev 4x12 (eminence V12)
GFS Greenie/Digitech Bad Monkey
Morley Bad Horsie 2
MXR Smart Gate
#12
Quote by Ippon
The Uberkab was designed by this guy:



The Carvin, by:



haha
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Quote by K33nbl4d3
I'll have to put the Classic T models on my to-try list. Shame the finish options there are Anachronism Gold, Nuclear Waste and Aged Clown, because in principle the plaintop is right up my alley.

Quote by K33nbl4d3
Presumably because the CCF (Combined Corksniffing Forces) of MLP and Gibson forums would rise up against them, plunging the land into war.

Quote by T00DEEPBLUE
Et tu, br00tz?
#13
Quote by Robbgnarly
^ you really are an opinionated asshat.

Jim Marshall's design was so horrible that it only invented hardrock/metal. And yeas interior space has everything to do with how a cab sounds, I'd figure you'd even recognize that


+1 on all accounts.

i think i have seven 4x12"s they are all do the job. there are other differences too though. the back of my avatar cab is a lining of some form of insulation deadening material. i have a Randall with 2x12"s and 1x15" that has a port. i have an old peavey cab with a mdf back, and it sounds great.

lets wait for despellman to add his opinion on eminence delta speakers and tweeters for the thousandth time.
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nope i am "GOD of the guitar forum" i think that fits me better.


Quote by andersondb7
youre just being a jerk man.



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#14
Quote by Robbgnarly
^ you really are an opinionated asshat.


Yes, I know. If you look up "opinionated asshat" in the Dictionary, there's a picture. Not a very good one, but I'll see if I can get them something suitably photoshopped next week.

Here's the thing, though -- none of that stuff was opinion.

That IS the history of how the 4x12 was designed. Jim Marshall needed something that would hold four 25W speakers because he was producing 100W amps. They actually laid the speakers on the factory floor and traced out the box they were going to build. They did the same thing with the 8x12, as well. And they DID get complaints about the back resonating, and that's why that post is there. No opinion -- just historical fact.

And 4x12s do beam treble, and it's predictable and repeatable. Always has been. Just fact. Doesn't matter if it's a slant or not. The cabinet acts like a big speaker with a cone diameter of about 30". The frequency at which ANY speaker begins to noticeably beam is a function of cone diameter. The actual cone diameter of a 15" speaker is about 13.3". To find the frequency at which it will begin to beam, divide 13,500 (the speed of sound at sea level in inches) by the cone diameter. Thus, almost every 15" speaker on the planet will begin to beam at around 1000Hz. And every 4x12 begins to beam around 500Hz.

Those aren't opinions; those are just the physics.

Quote by Robbgnarly
Jim Marshall's design was so horrible that it only invented hardrock/metal.


What's your point? You figure we should condemn future generations of guitar players to a half-century old piece of wood because it worked well enough back then? Should we be moving back toward rotary dial phones, too?

Quote by Robbgnarly
And yeas interior space has everything to do with how a cab sounds, I'd figure you'd even recognize that


And having said that, you have absolutely no idea if there are any differences at all in interior space between the two cabinets mentioned. Moreover, you have no idea what degree of difference would make a significant difference in sound or what that difference might be. I'm not a speaker cabinet designer, but I understand (and recognize) the differences interior volume makes (and it's going to be at the low end of the spectrum beyond what those speakers produce), the difference specific kinds and shapes of ports might make (if there were any in a 4x12) and what the resonant frequencies of the speakers (both eminence and celestion) mean in relation to that data.

These days we have mathematics that tell us what all this does. Back then we did not.
#15
Quote by Robbgnarly

To answer you dspellman, Carvin is a mediocre brand, not bad at all, but far from great. A Bogner ubercab sounds differently mostly because it has V30's and G12t75's in an X pattern stock. Besides you like fat chicks


Mediocre (in your opinion) as a brand or not (and that was a red herring), Carvin's 4x12 uses the same birch plywood in the same thickness and builds to the same dimensions as the Bogner. If you put the same speakers in the two of them (and Bogner has an X pattern available as an option but does not ship all cabinets that way) you'll get about as close to an equivalency as you can expect.

You assert that the Bogner sounds different, but I can pretty much guarantee you haven't heard the two of them side by side with the same speakers inside. And I have. Pretty much by accident, but there you go.

That aside, fat chicks sitting on tops of each of them will jiggle at the same resonant frequency and be likewise unable to ascertain the $700 difference. You can measure the fleshy sine wave tops to determine frequency. Hummmmmmmmm.
#16
Quote by trashedlostfdup


lets wait for despellman to add his opinion on eminence delta speakers and tweeters for the thousandth time.


Oh, right, I forgot to toss that in. I was distracted by the hairless cat. Sorry.
#17
Quote by dspellman
But it doesn't. I've actually been inside both (and about fifteen other 4x12 cabinets). I've got pictures to prove it.




i would be interested to see the inside of them if you don't mind.
WTLT 2014 GG&A

Quote by andersondb7
alright "king of the guitar forum"


Quote by trashedlostfdup
nope i am "GOD of the guitar forum" i think that fits me better.


Quote by andersondb7
youre just being a jerk man.



****** NEW NEW NEW!
2017-07-07 2017-07-07 Update and a Chat On Noise Constraints *** NEW FRIDAY 7/7
2017-04-13 RUN AWAY from COMPUTERS!!! TCE? RANT ALERT!!!
2017-03-02 - Guitar Philosophy 1001- Be Prepared For the Situation (Thursday 2017-03-02)
2017-02-21 How to Hot-Rod the Hell of your Stratocaster for $50! (Tuesday 2017-2-21)
Resentments and Rambling from a Guitar Junkie
---> http://trashedengineering.blogspot.com/
#18
Quote by dspellman
But it doesn't.
So why do different guitar cabs sound different if they're mostly of the same material and not different in design as you pointed out?
Quote by dspellman
It was a terrible design because they really didn't understand much about the physics at all in those days.
I agree.
Still, why do different cabs sound different then?
Quote by dspellman
Bogner has one. Carvin has one. Marshall has one. Orange has one. Mills Acoustic has a flat piece of wood with holes in it, and they market that as the "afterburner baffle." Woo.
You will agree though that a bogner cab (with 4 v30's) sounds different from an orange one, which in turn sounds different from a marshall 1960AV.

So, same question as before, why?
Quote by dspellman
All 4x12s beam treble, beginning at about 500Hz. THAT's the physics of the cabinet design.
I still agree, and I still wonder why in your opinion these cabs sound so different if they are, according to you, so similar in design.
Quote by Robbgnarly
Jim Marshall's design was so horrible that it only invented hardrock/metal. And yeas interior space has everything to do with how a cab sounds, I'd figure you'd even recognize that
While the sound may well be generally considered as good, nobody in the right mind would argue marshall has invented anything that was any more than mediocre from the engineering point of view.
Name's Luca.

Quote by OliOsbourne
I don't know anything about this topic, but I just clicked on this thread because of your username :O
Quote by Cajundaddy
Clue: amplifiers amplify so don't turn it on if you need quiet.
Quote by chrismendiola
I guess spambots are now capable of reading minds.
#19
Quote by Robbgnarly
^ you really are an opinionated asshat.

Jim Marshall's design was so horrible that it only invented hardrock/metal. And yeas interior space has everything to do with how a cab sounds, I'd figure you'd even recognize that


Yes, he often is.

The problem here is that he's basically right. The general "design" of a 4x12 was sketched out by Jim Marshall pretty much as described, there was little (if any) actual audio engineering done and it's remained basically the same with very minor variations since then.

Yes, enclosed volume plays a part in the sound of a cab. Can you tell me the difference if a cab has 36 in^3 greater volume? Smaller? What will change? What frequencies can I expect to hear better? Worse? Does it matter how well the cab is sealed?

Yes, there are answers available for all these questions, but the reality is that the differences aren't as significant as we've been conditioned to believe over the last several decades.

The problem with "I can HEAR the difference so fúck you!" is that it's been used for wood, strings and damn near every other subjective claim relating to music since the beginning of time and it's played out. Math is boring, math isn't sexy, but math doesn't lie...and every time someone actually bothers to set up a no BS blind test the results are the same. Math wins.
“Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge.”
Charles Darwin
Last edited by Arby911 at Feb 18, 2015,
#20
Quote by trashedlostfdup
i would be interested to see the inside of them if you don't mind.


Just a couple, then. The ones that are dead-on duplicates (most) aren't worth putting up, but here are some that have some actual differences:



This is Mills Acoustics' "Afterburner" baffle (what it really does is no more than the post in the middle of the one above):



This one is custom handbuilt and sort of revered in the SoCal area (and sort of expensive):



This one has built in "beam blockers" that don't do much (according to an RTA):

Last edited by dspellman at Feb 18, 2015,
#21
Quote by Spambot_2
So why do different guitar cabs sound different if they're mostly of the same material and not different in design as you pointed out?


The truth is, if you have the same speakers in each cabinet, they don't sound significantly different. And by same speakers, I mean the SAME speakers, moved from one cabinet to another. Most folks hear differences largely because they're hearing differences in the speakers themselves (these have been broken in, those not, these came from a production run ten years ago, those are from current production, etc.) or because they're hearing differences in the environment or because they're listening to one cabinet in the morning and another in the evening (our hearing changes as the day wears on) or because the air density changes (temperature, humidity, etc.). A huge number of guitarists hear with their eyes (It's a Gibson, so it's gotta sound better, It's a Bogner, so it's gotta sound better). There's acoustic coupling (different floors, different walls, different room shapes). And then, of course, there's your positioning relative to the cabinet's axis. There's where the beaming comes in. We even found out that there are differences when you have casters on the silly things or not.

I will tell you this. The expensive cabinets aren't necessarily better built or better sounding than the cheaper ones. We also found that MDF isn't a bad thing in a 4x12 (as long as you're not going to move them around a lot; the real reason for 3/4" birch ply is durability for gigging, and that it weighs less, and that it doesn't react to moisture the same way.


Quote by Spambot_2
While the sound may well be generally considered as good, nobody in the right mind would argue marshall has invented anything that was any more than mediocre from the engineering point of view.


Marshall was there first. A LOT of what Marshall did was for expedience or for cost savings. He'd change tubes because he couldn't get the ones he wanted cheap enough. And because he supplied brit groups with gear, and because brit groups were the rage, his gear became part of the rage. You can't overstate the influence of a stadium full of screaming women on what subsequent players wore, played, or played through. "He can't be a man 'cause he doesn't smoke the same cigarettes as me" was deadnuts accurate at the time.