#1
I was fooling around with an Epiphone 12-string, $150 new. It sounded and felt reasonably well.

It (a 12-string) is not something I'd play a lot so I don't want to spend a ton. I've been looking on Craigslist for a used but better make/model for about the same price with no luck.

So, why not drop $150 on one?

What are the potential drawbacks?
Last edited by gr7070 at Feb 22, 2015,
#3
The risk is that the guitar might not be adequately built for the higher tension of 12 strings, and could deform over time, raising the action. This can be fixed, at least in the medium term, by lowering the saddle. So if you go ahead, check the neck angle before you buy it. - There should be plenty of saddle left above the bridge when the action is where you want it.

I once saw an old Aria 12-string where the bridge had rotated so much that the string on the back row of pins had lifted clear of the saddle. This kind of thing isn't uncommon.
#4
Quote by gr7070
I was fooling around with an Epiphone 12-string, $150 new. It sounded and felt reasonably well.

It (a 12-string) is not something I'd play a lot so I don't want to spend a ton. I've been looking on Craigslist for a used but better make/model for about the same price with no luck.

So, why not drop $150 on one?
In this day and age, no reason not to really. However, back in the day, I bought an Epiphone 12 string on impulse, (it was left handed, quite rare at the time), and it was the biggest buying mistake I ever made, at least with respect to musical instruments. Epiphone has changed from Chinese OEMs, to providers in Indonesia, (ostensibly Sammick), and the QA is much better nowadays. The Epi 12 string you're considering received a fine write up in "Guitar Player Magazine", an "Editors Pick", even. Was the mag staff paid off, who knows?

Quote by gr7070
What are the potential drawbacks?
Well, the first one, at least from my POV, is being too eager, and not being objective enough about the guitar's actual condition.

The second issue, not knowing how to evaluate the action height correctly. In that you have to know how to interpolate the current saddle height, how much you'll have to take off to get the string height where you want it, and how much of the saddle will still be showing above the bridge, when you're done. Tony has touched on this issue, so I'm simply offering a different wording on the same concept. If you're not confident about your judgement/ability on this aspect, try and take someone with more experience who is.

OK, you shouldn't tune a 12 string up to E-e standard, no matter how much it cost. A set of medium gauge 12 strings, (.012 to .053), have in excess of 300 Lbs. of tension! With that sort of tension, only these with the strongest hands, can deal with fretting them anyway.

Even the much more commonly used 12 string "light" sets, (.010 to .047), have 250 Lbs. of tension at concert pitch. I guesstimate that a light set likely still has 200Lbs. of tension when tuned, D-d.You capo up the guitar if you need to play at concert pitch.

12 strings lead a hard life, and are more prone to self destructing than any 6 string. I suppose it depends on whether you're expecting a few years or a lifetime out of the instrument, to justify any purchase of a twelve.

My only objection to buying the Epi 12 in question, is the lack of a pickup and preamp. Twelves tend to be a bit shrill, (IMHO), and plugging them in for the sake of boosting the bottom end a bit, tends to make the sound a bit better balanced. (again IMO). This is assuming you're playing the instrument solo. With a band or the stereo, the brightness tends to make its own space in the mix.

Let's assume a worst case scenario, and the guitar collapses in a year.. (not likely) Even still, $150.00 a year isn't an exorbitant amount of money to support your musical instrument habit.

Simplifying all of the foregoing, if the neck is on at the correct angle, you're pretty much good to go.
Last edited by Captaincranky at Feb 22, 2015,
#5
Tony is right. There is a lot of tension on the bridge and neck of a 12-string guitar. Cheap ones will fail over time. That is guaranteed.

Regarding never tuning a 12-string to standard tuning, no matter the cost. I disagree. A quality instrument will be able to handle it. In fact, Bob Taylor of Taylor Guitars specifically states that it is okay to tune their 12-strings to standard pitch. In one of his articles, Bob does talk about tuning his 12-strings down a full step to D, but it's only to improve tone and not for the safety of the instrument. On a cheaper instrument, you would be well advised to tune it down to prevent damage.
#6
Quote by KG6_Steven
Tony is right. There is a lot of tension on the bridge and neck of a 12-string guitar. Cheap ones will fail over time. That is guaranteed.

Regarding never tuning a 12-string to standard tuning, no matter the cost. I disagree. A quality instrument will be able to handle it. In fact, Bob Taylor of Taylor Guitars specifically states that it is okay to tune their 12-strings to standard pitch. In one of his articles, Bob does talk about tuning his 12-strings down a full step to D, but it's only to improve tone and not for the safety of the instrument. On a cheaper instrument, you would be well advised to tune it down to prevent damage.

So basically Mr. Taylor is saying, "our 12 strings will take it, but tune them down anyway". Take a step back, doesn't that sound like someone covering their own warranted a**. Or possibly, "ad speak". Remember, a CEO never says anything that at least doesn't have a healthy component of self interest involved. Remember, the stiffer the bracing, the brighter the guitar is likely to be. Now, doesn't that sound like the typical Taylor to you? So then, you tune it down, which lowers the overall frequency spectrum. I think you can guess where I'm going with this.

As far as "cheap 12 strings" go, I had two thus far, which probably should at least give me some credibility.

1: Ovation "Matrix 12" Circa 1979 Tuned to E-e and left there. The top developed cracks in the pattern of the sound board bracing. It was like the guitar gave itself an X-ray. Weird. The bridge stayed put. Ovation I believe, bolts them down.

2. An Epiphone acoustic 12 string, circa 1997. Fancy it was, gold plated hardware, with a pretty vintage sunburst finish. The neck was never affixed at the correct angle, so the saddle hovered barely above the bridge proper once the action height was set. In fact, I had to rout the bridge in front of the E-6 string so the the E-6 prime string wouldn't buzz against it.

That guitar, sat in my living room, tuned to D-d, for close to 17 years. The bridge never lifted, the top never cracked. It obviously never got any better, but it got very little worse. No humidification or anything. The action was virtually the same when I threw the POS away, as when I set it there.

3: A not cheap all maple Guild 12 string maple jumbo. No clue as to the model number. I had it custom built through a local music store. It cost $1400.00 in 1993.

Guild shipped the guitar with a medium gauge string set, (.012 to .053). Those strings actually did improve the tone of the jumbo guitar. However, tuned to concert pitch, I'd need somebody else to push my fingers down while I played the damned thing.

My point being here is, 12 strings often don't live that long, true. But frankly speaking, their demise is often brought on by mistreatment, as much as by the caprices of low price and Asian labor.

The Epi is question is most likely all laminate, which can only help the cause at this price point.
Last edited by Captaincranky at Feb 23, 2015,
#7
Quote by Captaincranky
In this day and age, no reason not to really. . . . . . .


Indeed ^ ^ ^ ^ ^
#8
Quote by Captaincranky
So basically Mr. Taylor is saying, "our 12 strings will take it, but tune them down anyway". Take a step back, doesn't that sound like someone covering their own warranted a**. Or possibly, "ad speak". Remember, a CEO never says anything that at least doesn't have a healthy component of self interest involved. Remember, the stiffer the bracing, the brighter the guitar is likely to be. Now, doesn't that sound like the typical Taylor to you? So then, you tune it down, which lowers the overall frequency spectrum. I think you can guess where I'm going with this.

As far as "cheap 12 strings" go, I had two thus far, which probably should at least give me some credibility.

1: Ovation "Matrix 12" Circa 1979 Tuned to E-e and left there. The top developed cracks in the pattern of the sound board bracing. It was like the guitar gave itself an X-ray. Weird. The bridge stayed put. Ovation I believe, bolts them down.

2. An Epiphone acoustic 12 string, circa 1997. Fancy it was, gold plated hardware, with a pretty vintage sunburst finish. The neck was never affixed at the correct angle, so the saddle hovered barely above the bridge proper once the action height was set. In fact, I had to rout the bridge in front of the E-6 string so the the E-6 prime string wouldn't buzz against it.

That guitar, sat in my living room, tuned to D-d, for close to 17 years. The bridge never lifted, the top never cracked. It obviously never got any better, but it got very little worse. No humidification or anything. The action was virtually the same when I threw the POS away, as when I set it there.

3: A not cheap all maple Guild 12 string maple jumbo. No clue as to the model number. I had it custom built through a local music store. It cost $1400.00 in 1993.

Guild shipped the guitar with a medium gauge string set, (.012 to .053). Those strings actually did improve the tone of the jumbo guitar. However, tuned to concert pitch, I'd need somebody else to push my fingers down while I played the damned thing.

My point being here is, 12 strings often don't live that long, true. But frankly speaking, their demise is often brought on by mistreatment, as much as by the caprices of low price and Asian labor.

The Epi is question is most likely all laminate, which can only help the cause at this price point.



I think you make a valid point - that any guitar, if mistreated, will eventually meet its demise.

There are also some crappy, cheap 12-string guitars that I wouldn't give you $10 to own. Those guitars will eventually have issues no matter how well they are treated.

I don't know about other manufacturers, but I do know that Taylor makes a good instrument. Their 12-string guitars are built well enough to handle E-e tuning. Is Bob covering his butt by recommending that people tune down for better tone? I don't think so. Why would he say that standard tuning is okay for their guitars? If I had a Taylor 12-string, I would have it tuned to standard tuning. Personally, I like the brighter tone of some Taylor acoustics. I think it sits better in a mix. Not all Taylors sound the same. I have a Taylor custom shop acoustic that sounds a world apart from my 314CE and that's why I bought it. People generally love or hate Taylor guitars and that's fine by me. I'd love to own a Martin, if I could find one that didn't sound so darned muddy. Perhaps we can blame that on working around jet aircraft for too many years.
#9
^^^^^I'm not a big fan of the Taylor sound (or most Martins for that matter ) but I think that they have a lot going for them in terms of design and construction, especially the bolt-on neck. This turns a neck reset from a $500 job into a $50 job, and that is particularly relevant to 12-strings, IMO. FWIW, I chose my "best" guitar, a Bourgeois, partly because the neck is bolt-on.
#10
Quote by Tony Done
^^^^^I'm not a big fan of the Taylor sound (or most Martins for that matter ) but I think that they have a lot going for them in terms of design and construction, especially the bolt-on neck. This turns a neck reset from a $500 job into a $50 job, and that is particularly relevant to 12-strings, IMO. FWIW, I chose my "best" guitar, a Bourgeois, partly because the neck is bolt-on.
AFAIK, the cheapest Taylor 12 string is $700.00. That means, you can buy 3 1/2 of the Epiphones in question, (at retail !!!), before you spend the same amount of money, and how much a neck reset would be on the Epi is beyond moot. @150.00, you shit can it, and buy a new one.

You yourself are frequently waxing poetic with regards to, "AFAIK, price is no longer the sole arbiter of how a guitar is going to sound". Will the Epiphone in question sound like a $5000.00 Taylor, absolutely not. Will it be good enough to immerse you in the vernacular of the 12 string, positively.

Will the Epiphone in question give you a decent couple of years? Yes, if the neck is on at the correct angle. My crap Epi actually sounded pretty darned good.

As far as the constant harping on neck reset-ability which you do, it simply doesn't matter in this topic.

As far as the actuality of the situation, you're as much responsible for, "guitars turning into bananas" as anyone else, since you can't be persuaded to put lighter strings. So, mediums it is, 185+ Lbs. of tension it is, and a sooner rather than later neck reset, it also is. If you can't be persuaded to show your guitars a bit of mercy, then sooner or later, you're going to have to pay the piper, who oftentimes, you'll find vested in luthier's garb. Yeah I know, "the sound, the sound, the sound", and resetting the neck is part of the price for it.
#11
Everything you say about prices and the implied illogicality of my position is absolutely true. However, I personally only go for acoustic guitars that could be handed down to my grandchildren, and mojo. I haven't spent much on anything else luxurious the past 25 years, and this is now my only indulgence. Ya gotta have some pleasures in life.

I don't feel the same way about electric guitars, they're just lumps of wood with pickups.

EDIT - Just an added thought. I can't recall ever suggesting anyone should save up and buy a $1500 guitar if they only have $150 and have found a guitar they like. OTOH, I am liable to do a bit of hobby horse riding if someone suggests buying a $1500 Tak with a non-resettable neck when they can get a Taylor or other make in which the neck is resettable. There are a few notable acoustic guitarists who use(d) light strings, eg Bert Jansch and Adrian Legg, but the bulk of steel string players seem to prefer heavir strings on tonal grounds, and are willing to pay structural price. I sold my very nice 1925 Martin 0-21, because it thought it would only take light strings, and I didn't like the "thin" sound.
Last edited by Tony Done at Feb 23, 2015,
#12
Quote by KG6_Steven
I think you make a valid point - that any guitar, if mistreated, will eventually meet its demise.

There are also some crappy, cheap 12-string guitars that I wouldn't give you $10 to own. Those guitars will eventually have issues no matter how well they are treated.
QA in Asian guitars, and with respect to Epiphone in particular has risen dramatically. The Epiphones coming out of Indonesia in particular are very near perfect. Throughout my membership in this forum, I've endured scathing criticism when I mentioned wanting an EJ-200SCE. Epiphone has constantly been ripped for QA. Yet I have 2 of the EJ-200s,which I pulled out of the box, and which looked and played perfectly right out of the box. So, either I'm a complete idiot, or you people are calling me a liar. Do they have bolt on necks? No! Are the guitars cheaper than a set-in neck reset? Yes. The message is quite clear, throw it away, and buy a new one.

The honest to god truth is, I won't even bother to start an online photo account, as I have no intention of sharing any of my, "HNGDs", with any of you, and the foregoing was the reason for it. Yes I know, I should have bought a Taylor, a Martin, a Gibson, a Cole Clark. I've already had the conversation with myself. No need to do it all over again on the web.

Quote by KG6_Steven
I don't know about other manufacturers, but I do know that Taylor makes a good instrument. Their 12-string guitars are built well enough to handle E-e tuning. Is Bob covering his butt by recommending that people tune down for better tone? I don't think so. Why would he say that standard tuning is okay for their guitars? If I had a Taylor 12-string, I would have it tuned to standard tuning.
And...."if wishes were horses, beggars would ride". Since AFAIK, you have no immediate interest in buying one. (And you'd probably be picking your 6 strings up more often, 'cause they'd be easier to play than any 12 string tuned to concert pitch, Taylor or otherwise).

If Bob Taylors lips are moving, he's trying to sell you a guitar. He may make a quality product in an environmentally responsible manner while doing so, but the end game is, selling you a guitar.

Quote by KG6_Steven
iPersonally, I like the brighter tone of some Taylor acoustics. I think it sits better in a mix.
And here again, you're the only person in the thread who feels obligated to explain how Taylor guitars sound in a band

Quote by KG6_Steven
Not all Taylors sound the same. I have a Taylor custom shop acoustic that sounds a world apart from my 314CE and that's why I bought it. People generally love or hate Taylor guitars and that's fine by me. I'd love to own a Martin, if I could find one that didn't sound so darned muddy. Perhaps we can blame that on working around jet aircraft for too many years.
Well, you could probably get on with much cheaper, much tinnier guitars, since high frequency hearing is the first to go, especially in males. That would bring the cheapie, "up in your mix", so to speak. Plus, what you're ostensibly calling, "mud", is actually the Martin dreadnought's much vaunted bottom end.

The fact remains, the TS has already stated the guitar sounds and plays well, FOR WHAT IT IS.

As long as the neck is set on at the correct angle, and the guitar is tuned no higher than D-d, it will most likely last a few years. Dude, I have two cats, together they cost me about $300.00 a year in cat litter alone. Now, tell me truthfully, how f***ing long does a $150.00 guitar actually need to last?


FWIW, this thread isn't about the custom Taylor 12 string you imagine yourself ordering.

FWIW, this thread isn't about your stable of guitars.

FWIW, It isn't your money being spent.

And FWIW, it's always easier to hypothetically spend someone else's money, than it is to actually spend your own.

Now, we've had plenty of plenty of young people, (and I expect others as well), come through here broke, without the means to buy an expensive guitar.

Most of us have the good taste to tell them the truth, "if you only have $60.00 bucks, you can still buy a "Rogue". It's plenty good enough to learn with, and maybe sometime in the future you'll be able to spring for better. If you wait, you won't be able to play when that time gets here. Or is this the point where we should have launched into, "Bob Taylor says.............."?
#13
Show me a $150 guitar that feels like a quality piece of work and sounds like something costing much more and I'll buy it. I'm not into throw away guitars. I'm into quality guitars that feel and sound good. I know the "quality" of workmanship that goes into these cheap guitars. They feel like crap and sound like crap. Sure, you can buy several and throw them away, or you can buy a decent quality instrument that will last several years and, as Tony mentioned, be something that you can pass on to the next generation. You can apply that same logic to anything that you may buy - cars, appliances, furniture, houses, etc... There will always be those who buy the low end model. I have no argument with that logic. However, I do not subscribe to it. Give me something with quality - I can't afford to have a cheap-o guitar crap out on me during a performance.

FWIW, I've never done a HNGD post. I don't mind posting photos of my gear in the place designed for that purpose, but have never gone the HNGD route. It's not me. Same with posting my wall of gear at the bottom of every post. It's just kinda lame.

Lastly, I've never imagined myself ordering a custom shop 12-string. I pick them up in the guitar stores every once in awhile, but have never considered ordering or buying one. I play electric lead in the group I'm in and I really have no interest in acquiring a 12-string for my stable.

Still trying to figure out why you're called Captain Cranky. LOL
#14
Quote by KG6_Steven
Show me a $150 guitar that feels like a quality piece of work and sounds like something costing much more and I'll buy it. I'm not into throw away guitars. I'm into quality guitars that feel and sound good. I know the "quality" of workmanship that goes into these cheap guitars. They feel like crap and sound like crap. Sure, you can buy several and throw them away, or you can buy a decent quality instrument that will last several years and, as Tony mentioned, be something that you can pass on to the next generation. You can apply that same logic to anything that you may buy - cars, appliances, furniture, houses, etc... There will always be those who buy the low end model. I have no argument with that logic. However, I do not subscribe to it. Give me something with quality - I can't afford to have a cheap-o guitar crap out on me during a performance.

FWIW, I've never done a HNGD post. I don't mind posting photos of my gear in the place designed for that purpose, but have never gone the HNGD route. It's not me. Same with posting my wall of gear at the bottom of every post. It's just kinda lame.

Lastly, I've never imagined myself ordering a custom shop 12-string. I pick them up in the guitar stores every once in awhile, but have never considered ordering or buying one. I play electric lead in the group I'm in and I really have no interest in acquiring a 12-string for my stable.

Still trying to figure out why you're called Captain Cranky. LOL

Well, we had someone in here a week or so ago with a laminated top Epi he was very happy with, bordering on ecstatic. It was about $150.00. He wanted to make the switch to acoustic from electric.

When you come right down to it, a fresh set of strings can make even the humblest instruments a lot of fun to play and hear.

It does take a while, possibly years, to even build up the vocabulary, with which to describe how much better a $3000.00 guitar is, than a $300.00 guitar. Oddly, the web, and poor amateur recording techniques, cause a $300.00 Epiphone Hummingbird to sound very similar to a Gibson Hummingbird, for 1/10 the price. So, if you can't get your message across with the instrument, there's always the name on the headstock, the "mojo", and don't forget the "nitro".

With those things in mind, I recall an old adage. which I'm going to paraphrase just for you; "an Epiphone Hummingbird in the hand, is worth two Gibson Hummingbirds in Bozeman Montana".

Anyway, should you ever decide to buy a 12 string, I fully expect you to tune it to concert pitch, and come back and tell me what a breeze it is to play.

As someone who had a Les Paul and a Guild jumbo 12 string at the same time, I reserve the right to tell you how full of crap you will be while doing so.

As far as Bob Taylor's soundbites go, I can tell you that the simplest Google search, using the term, "types of propaganda', would, (hopefully), open up new worlds of understanding for you. Bob Taylor, is just, "one of the guys". To an extent I suppose that's true. But the other really, really, famous, "just one of the guys", happened to be named Steve Jobs. And while he did possess a high degree of technical skill and innovation, he should probably also be remembered by history, as one of the most notorious charismatics since Rasputin.

So now, explain to me why it matters if a $150.00 dollar doesn't sound good to you? You're not the one going to be listening to it.

As to why I'm called "captaincranky", that's easy. I always used to come to my job as an auto painter on Mondays, crashing from a meth weekend. "Captaincranky, get it? The guy in the body shop next to ours gave me the nickname. It's hard to believe that was three decades ago, and likely even harder for you to believe, I've mellowed out quite a bit since then...
Last edited by Captaincranky at Feb 24, 2015,
#15
Quote by Captaincranky
. . . . Well, we had someone in here a week or so ago with a laminated top Epi he was very happy with, bordering on ecstatic. It was about $150.00. . . . . . .

. . . . . When you come right down to it, a fresh set of strings can make even the humblest instruments a lot of fun to play and hear. . . . .


. . . . . So now, explain to me why it matters if a $150.00 dollar doesn't sound good to you? You're not the one going to be listening to it. . . .


Excellent points - and all true, of course.
#16
CC, as an auto painter, have you ever done, or thought about doing guitar finishing? I could see that as a nice little hobby if I had the skills. I've read several example where amateur biulder have taken the guitars to local spray shop to get them sprayed when the right colour came along. We have a guy in town who does guitar refinishing, mostly two-pack, as a sideline in his shed at home.

I paid Oz $1200 for my lam top Maton and I'm also very happy with it. You have to trust your ears, eh?
#17
Quote by Captaincranky
It does take a while, possibly years, to even build up the vocabulary, with which to describe how much better a $3000.00 guitar is, than a $300.00 guitar. Oddly, the web, and poor amateur recording techniques, cause a $300.00 Epiphone Hummingbird to sound very similar to a Gibson Hummingbird, for 1/10 the price. So, if you can't get your message across with the instrument, there's always the name on the headstock, the "mojo", and don't forget the "nitro".

Anyway, should you ever decide to buy a 12 string, I fully expect you to tune it to concert pitch, and come back and tell me what a breeze it is to play.

As someone who had a Les Paul and a Guild jumbo 12 string at the same time, I reserve the right to tell you how full of crap you will be while doing so.

So now, explain to me why it matters if a $150.00 dollar doesn't sound good to you? You're not the one going to be listening to it.

As to why I'm called "captaincranky", that's easy. I always used to come to my job as an auto painter on Mondays, crashing from a meth weekend. "Captaincranky, get it? The guy in the body shop next to ours gave me the nickname. It's hard to believe that was three decades ago, and likely even harder for you to believe, I've mellowed out quite a bit since then...


There is no arguing with the fact that it does take years to be able to appreciate the sound and tone from better quality guitars. When you're first starting out, everything sounds good - even that free Jasmine that comes with the bulk string purchase. That could be a bit of a stretch though, as I remember playing some cheap acoustics back in the day and knowing fully well that they felt and sounded bad.

I have played standard tuned 12-strings. Personally, I don't think they're all that bad to play. My daily player is an acoustic. I use it for rhythm and lead practice. My custom shop acoustic has 13s on it from the factory. I just don't find 12-strings all that difficult to play. I really like the sound of a 12-string, but I just don't see a need for one at the moment. Maybe one of these days. If I ever do, I guarantee you that it will be tuned to standard.

It's not only the sound of a $150 guitar that concerns me. Workmanship and build quality are also very important. I don't care for laminate tops and sides on cheap acoustics. If it includes an electronics package, it will be crap. Frets, finish and fit are also quite important. For that price, you won't get the best product. Why buy a Maserati, when a Ford Pinto does the same thing? While I may not be out in front of the soundboard, I can still appreciate the tone of a quality instrument, even if I'm playing it.

Has anyone ever taken a Rogue into the studio and produced a professional CD?

We may end up having to agree to disagree on this one. Obviously there is a market for cheap guitars. People buy them and play them and a lot of them end up in closets or under beds. They're not for everyone, but they certainly have a place in the economy. If a player decides that an inexpensive guitar fits his needs and the sound is acceptable, then I can't argue with that. Same goes for the guy who has a bedroom studio full of Behringer gear. Hey, if it feels good and sounds good, play it. Right?

Finally made the name connection. I definitely believe it, but I have no idea what it's like.
#18
Quote by KG6_Steven
There is no arguing with the fact that it does take years to be able to appreciate the sound and tone from better quality guitars.
Approached with a cynic's jaundiced appraisal, that could also be taken to mean, "I had to develop an entire vernacular to justify the price of this guitar.

Quote by KG6_Steven
I have played standard tuned 12-strings. Personally, I don't think they're all that bad to play. My daily player is an acoustic. I use it for rhythm and lead practice. My custom shop acoustic has 13s on it from the factory. I just don't find 12-strings all that difficult to play. I really like the sound of a 12-string, but I just don't see a need for one at the moment. Maybe one of these days. If I ever do, I guarantee you that it will be tuned to standard.
I didn't doubt for a moment you would think a 12 string tuned to concert would be hard to play. In fact, I entirely expected it.

Quote by KG6_Steven
It's not only the sound of a $150 guitar that concerns me. Workmanship and build quality are also very important. I don't care for laminate tops and sides on cheap acoustics. If it includes an electronics package, it will be crap. Frets, finish and fit are also quite important. For that price, you won't get the best product.
And once again, need I remind you that it's not your concern. It's the new proud owner's.

Quote by KG6_Steven
Why buy a Maserati, when a Ford Pinto does the same thing?
Because you can't afford the Maserati that somebody else is busting your balls telling you to buy? I really didn't think anybody at UG was forensically clumsy enough to walk into that. But, it appears I was mistaken.


Has anyone ever taken a Rogue into the studio and produced a professional CD? A question that isn't quite that inane might be, "what should I do while I'm sitting here in my bedroom tonight"? Should I play with Mr. Johnson? Should I fire up the X-Box? Or should I fire up the computer, and waste precious time while could be playing my Rogue, and go to UG so I can be told it's a piece of shit?


Quote by KG6_Steven
We may end up having to agree to disagree on this one. Obviously there is a market for cheap guitars. People buy them and play them and a lot of them end up in closets or under beds.
Well, it could be worse, it could be a Gibson, Martin, or Taylor sitting under the bad. Although, what you would lose selling a non collectable issues of those guitars, would most likely be more than the price of the cheapie.


Quote by KG6_Steven
Same goes for the guy who has a bedroom studio full of Behringer gear. Hey, if it feels good and sounds good, play it. Right?
Hey watch that, I have a couple of those pedals. But, I half on board with their uselessness. The effects sound just fine, but the foot switches fail in short order. No matter, I leave the reverb and delay kicked in all the time anyway. I have a 3 decade old Boss BF-2 flanger, and an MXR Phase 90, also. The analog flanger can be describes as nothing but brittle, and the foam support cushion in the Phase 90 has turned to dust.


Quote by KG6_Steven
Finally made the name connection. I definitely believe it, but I have no idea what it's like.
You know, if you go over to the main site, you'll find reviews of acoustic guitars aplenty. Many people wax poetically about their Ibanez, Epiphone, even Dean acoustics. It isn't until they come over here to the acoustic forum, when find out they've only been living a lie, and everything they thought was decent, is absolute garbage.

So, this forum really doesn't have that much traffic, and it's getting worse. I think it's because of the profound pomposity and cavernous disconnect people feel when they come here.

I sincerely doubt it's because one member chooses to call himself, "cranky". Which frankly isn't an issue, until you start trying to shove a stick into my cage.
#19
Quote by Captaincranky

So, this forum really doesn't have that much traffic, and it's getting worse. I think it's because of the profound pomposity and cavernous disconnect people feel when they come here.

Actually it has more to do with the fact that forums in general are becoming less and less fashionable due to the popularity of websites such as Reddit.
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#20
I can't imagine a $150 Epiphone 12-string having much of a useful life. I own an american-made Epiphone 12 that I paid $250 for in 1965 and it's been plagued by inadequate bracing for most of it's life. I string it with 10s, tune in D and slack off the strings if I'm not actually playing.
#21
Quote by davebowers
I can't imagine a $150 Epiphone 12-string having much of a useful life. I own an american-made Epiphone 12 that I paid $250 for in 1965 and it's been plagued by inadequate bracing for most of it's life. I string it with 10s, tune in D and slack off the strings if I'm not actually playing.
You know, this thread really isn't about that either. Someone posts asking, "why shouldn't I plunk $150.00 down on a cheapo 12 string"? The next thing you know, he should buy a Taylor, blah,blah, blah".

You've actually proved my point. A twelve will have a reasonable service life, if you tune it down to D-d.

Besides, I already posted that I spend over $300.00 in cat litter a year. With that in mind, how f*****g cheap are you, that a $150.00 guitar, is expected to last a lifetime? I'm almost, but not quite, that cheap .

Any beginner's guitar would likely meet the same fate. But, that's what a beginners guitar is all about. With that said, I'd rather have a fresh $150.00 12 string than a used one of a slightly better price bracket, since twelves sometimes don't last long, the guitar is never going to be in the condition someone on Ebay says it is, and it's likely already had it's, "fair share of abuse".

The TS stated he wanted a 12 string, but simply wasn't that invested in the style to spend a bunch of money. The Epiphone is question got a stellar write up in GP magazine. IIRC, it got an "editor's pick". "Yeah,yeah, yeah", said the Beatles. I'm aware that GPM takes advertising. Really, so what?

PS, if that post contained a tinge of sarcasm, "1965", you should have hit " " for emphasis.
Last edited by Captaincranky at Feb 25, 2015,
#22
Quote by Captaincranky
Approached with a cynic's jaundiced appraisal, that could also be taken to mean, "I had to develop an entire vernacular to justify the price of this guitar.


It has nothing to do with developing a vernacular to justify the price of a guitar. For the majority of us, the longer we play, the more refined our hearing becomes. We expect a guitar to sound a certain way. Just as I'd like to have a Martin acoustic, but I can't get past their muddy tone. I also don't care for the way my wife's two acoustics sound. Back when I first started playing, anything I picked up sounded good - except for those big box store starter acoustics.

Quote by Captaincranky
And once again, need I remind you that it's not your concern. It's the new proud owner's.


Not sure that I ever made it my concern. Personally, I don't care if someone wants to slap some 12s on a 2x4 and play it as their acoustic guitar. The opinions expressed were purely my own. $150 guitars are cheaply built. That's a fact you really can't argue.


Quote by Captaincranky
A question that isn't quite that inane might be, "what should I do while I'm sitting here in my bedroom tonight"? Should I play with Mr. Johnson? Should I fire up the X-Box? Or should I fire up the computer, and waste precious time while could be playing my Rogue, and go to UG so I can be told it's a piece of ****?


I would never tell anyone that their Rogue is a piece of crap. Heck, I've even recommended Behringer gear to guys starting out. I fully realize that not everyone can afford that expensive R Taylor acoustic guitar. You have to buy what you can afford. At the same time, I will tell someone buying inexpensive gear that at some point, they will likely want to upgrade to something better. Nothing wrong with that.


Quote by Captaincranky
Hey watch that, I have a couple of those pedals. But, I half on board with their uselessness. The effects sound just fine, but the foot switches fail in short order. No matter, I leave the reverb and delay kicked in all the time anyway. I have a 3 decade old Boss BF-2 flanger, and an MXR Phase 90, also. The analog flanger can be describes as nothing but brittle, and the foam support cushion in the Phase 90 has turned to dust.


Hey, don't tell anyone, but I still have a Behringer Ultra Voice Pro sitting in my rack. Of course, I haven't used it in quite some time. I also have a Behringer B-1 mic that I still use on occasion. As long as you understand the limitations of the inexpensive gear, you'll do fine.

Quote by Captaincranky
You know, if you go over to the main site, you'll find reviews of acoustic guitars aplenty. Many people wax poetically about their Ibanez, Epiphone, even Dean acoustics. It isn't until they come over here to the acoustic forum, when find out they've only been living a lie, and everything they thought was decent, is absolute garbage.


I just went over to Musician's Friend and did a search on Rogue Acoustics. I found a $49 acoustic with nearly 500 reviews. Several of them gave it 5 stars. Some gave it far fewer stars. A new player with no other point of reference will think that Rogue acoustic is a finely made instrument, as evidenced by the multiple 5 star ratings.

Quote by Captaincranky
So, this forum really doesn't have that much traffic, and it's getting worse. I think it's because of the profound pomposity and cavernous disconnect people feel when they come here.


The Pit is full of people displaying those qualities, however it is still frequented by many. I really doubt that's the reason for low traffic in this forum.

This is my last post on the topic. I don't think we're going to see eye to eye on this one and that's fine. If somebody finds an inexpensive guitar and they like the tone, I am more than happy for them. Chances are, they will eventually come to appreciate instruments built to a higher standard. If not, it ain't no skin off my teeth. I'm happy with what I have and I have no regrets on what I've spent on my guitars, amps and equipment. If TS can find a decent guitar for $150, he has my encouragement. Same goes for anyone else.
#23
a 12 string for 150? that 's 12.50 a string!! way to low. How do you expect at 12.50 a string to get even decent playability or sound? a new 6 string alvarez dreadnought of the cheap series is 199.99 that's 33.33 a string almost triple the cost of your 12 string do the math dude, do the math
#24
Quote by macmanmatty
a 12 string for 150? that 's 12.50 a string!! way to low. How do you expect at 12.50 a string to get even decent playability or sound? a new 6 string alvarez dreadnought of the cheap series is 199.99 that's 33.33 a string almost triple the cost of your 12 string do the math dude, do the math
I don't know about Alvarez quality against investment, but Epiphone is pushing a pretty good bang for the buck these days.

Anyway, the Epiphone I'm referencing is this one: http://www.musiciansfriend.com/guitars/epiphone-dr-212-12-string-acoustic-guitar and it's 200 bucks. I really don't know as if they have one for $150.00. the one in this thread could have been the 212 on sale. This got an "Editor's Pick" in Guitar player Magazine. If you want to discuss this any further, take it up with GPM. And no, they don't give everything an editor's pick.

You maths don't make all that much sense, you can't really go into a music store and buy a one string guitar for 33.33. It would seem you'd have to crank out the chain saw and hack off a sixth of one of the line models. But hey, the other hundred and sixty six bucks could go toward your bail....
Last edited by Captaincranky at Feb 27, 2015,
#25
Now that I've seen the Musician's Friend listing, I'm inclined to say "Go for it!". The dimensions look about the same as my aging F212 and they've apparently address the bracing problems I've seen. While i's recommend spending a bit more, I you just want to experiment with 12-string, this could be a great way to go.

It won't last forever but, if you decide that 12-sting is your instrument, then there are lots of pricey instruments out there that will last.
#26
Quote by davebowers
Now that I've seen the Musician's Friend listing, I'm inclined to say "Go for it!". The dimensions look about the same as my aging F212 and they've apparently address the bracing problems I've seen. While i's recommend spending a bit more, I you just want to experiment with 12-string, this could be a great way to go.

It won't last forever but, if you decide that 12-sting is your instrument, then there are lots of pricey instruments out there that will last.
You know, I've saying that exact same thing, for what seems like puh-ages .