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#1
Im pounding through theory at the moment and just wondering, in terms of soloing and covering bases, what scales are best to learn.

Please no answers like all of them, i know what i want to learn i just need to be told what it is?

My method of thinking is learning major and minor, then basing everything off that? that would make sense would it not?

My guitar idols are mainly jimmy page, with gilmour and brian may bringing up the rear.

i can see that pentatonic and blues scales and certain modes are what these guys like but i want to know what scale can provide more then the pentatonic yet less then the major? if that makes any sense at all?

Im pushed towards just learning the blues scale which IIRC is pentatonic with an added note?

the main reason i ask is cause im pressed for time and i work so i kinda wanna put all my energy in covering it all, id rather learn more and need less than learn less and want more?

In a nutshell i want to be able to solo, blues prog rock style whilst not limited to the pentatonic as those added notes as you hear in brian may solos for example add such flavour thats what i want to replicate.


Any ideas? also im only interested for the moment in learning whatever scale is certain keys like a b e for now as it covers so much rock, so i just really want to know what scale youd suggest?
#2
Minor Pentatonic.
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#4
Start with Major. That's how I started out. One you mastered major move on to the minor. Definitely learn the blues scale.
#5
generally I'd say pentatonics and the major scale and its modes (really mostly though with what you want to do the pentatonic and blues scales and the major scale, dorian scale and natural minor scale will take you pretty far if you get em down).
You can also check out players you like (like the ones you mentioned) and when you see something that fits nicely in a scale run it as a pattern up and down the whole thing to get some of your own ideas.
all the best.
(insert self-aggrandizing quote here)
#6
It depends on what kind of player you want to be. Most half-ass juke joint players know 2-3 scales and a dozen chords. If you really want to own prog rock and be able to dig deep and soar well beyond the pent scale you probably want to learn ___ of them. And while you are at it, learn ___ of your chords too. But you already knew that.

Major/minor pent, blues scale, harmonic and melodic minor, major scale, diminished scale and knowing when and where to use them. Thats 7 different scales and you would be well beyond the average juke joint guitarist. A good start at stretching out as a player with some depth. Plenty more still to learn though.
"Your sound is in your hands as much as anything. It's the way you pick, and the way you hold the guitar, more than it is the amp or the guitar you use." -- Stevie Ray Vaughan

"Anybody can play. The note is only 20 percent. The attitude of the motherfucker who plays it is 80 percent." -- Miles Davis

Guthrie on tone: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zmohdG9lLqY
Last edited by Cajundaddy at Mar 5, 2015,
#7
Jimmy Page, Dave Gilmour and Brian May largely stuck to the major, minor and blues scales. If you like them, you can learn those too.

I know people will throw around a lotnof fancy names for different scales, but in the end, there's 12 notes. If you want to play more than just straight major or minor you can use the 5 you aren't playing whenever you like.
And no, Guitar Hero will not help. Even on expert. Really.
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#8
I think it's a great idea to learn a few basic scales like the major, minor and blues scales. However, it's good to treat them like training wheels until you get the hang of how different intervals sound. There are situations where sticking to a scale holds you back, and it is good to be able to think in pure intervals rather than scale shapes.

I think Stairway to Heaven is a nice example- the chords at the beginning have a bit of chromaticism going on, and it's still in the key of A minor.
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#9
In order of importance for rock guitar:

1. Major/Minor Pentatonic (this is a blues scale see the preceding post on chromatics)

2. Major/Minor

3. Harmonic Minor

4. Melodic Minor

5. Symmetric diminished

6. Harmonic Major

7. Whole Tone/Augmented

That's it. Realistically, you'll never go past 3. But I figured I'd be thorough.

Also everyone before me is giving great advice.
"There are two styles of music. Good music and bad music." -Duke Ellington

"If you really think about it, the guitar is a pointless instrument." - Robert Fripp
#10
^ Lol. Kinda true, but I sometimes accidentally used melodic minor. I had no idea it was melodic minor, though.
#11
I would've put Whole Tone at number 5. It's like the easiest one to screw around with and can do anything from dreamy to creepy to chaotic very easily or can be used momentarily as more of a tension builder or to get from one place to another.

Of course, I've spent very little time playing around with Symmetric Diminished and I've only ever heard of Harmonic Major like 4 times.
#12
Harmonic Major is what you wanna play if you have a minor iv or a bIV chord in a major key.
#14
^Well said, Vic!
Quote by Jesus
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#15
Learn these all over the neck, through shapes and patterns. By the time you get through these, you'll already know every mode in all the keys, and then you'll realize they are all the same.

E Chromatic - 12 notes.
E or A Blues - 10 notes.
C Major - 7 notes.
C Whole Tone - 6 notes.
E major pentatonic - 5 notes.
A major pentatonic
D major pentatonic
G major pentatonic
B major pentatonic
Diminished - 4 notes.
Arpeggios for various 4 - 6 note chords.
Last edited by The Harvest at Mar 5, 2015,
#17
Some thoughts:

But why wouldn't you learn everything in all keys...... (cough cough especially major scales)

Why would you only learn a C major scale? There's 11 more... Same goes for the other scales you listed. Music occurs in more than 5 keys/roots.

Diminished is 8 notes, unless you only meant the arpeggio. The chromatic scale has no root.

Also I'm still on the fence as to whether or not a "blues scale" as a separate entity exists. It's just pentatonic with chromatic elaboration.

And yeah I have whole tone so far down because of application - often whole tone just becomes a gimmicky 7#5 sound, where as Harmonic major works over far greater chord types.

And I wouldn't use it as Elintasokas suggested, it's more of a modal equivalent of MM. But that's beyond the scope of this thread.

Anyway OP, learn major and minor in all keys and the resultant pentatonics. That should keep you busy for at least a year.
"There are two styles of music. Good music and bad music." -Duke Ellington

"If you really think about it, the guitar is a pointless instrument." - Robert Fripp
#18
TheHarvest - not sure how useful the chromatic scale is, let alone only learning it in E. Past learning the names of all the notes, it's doesn't help you much in achieving a specific sound - it's just all the notes. Realistically you won't be doing chromatic scales all the time, rather just employing runs here and there to link chord tones.
And no, Guitar Hero will not help. Even on expert. Really.
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#19
Like JP said, I'd also recommend learning at least the vanilla major and minor scales in all keys. Sure, all the keys are the same pattern from a different pitch and you can transpose them around, but can you do that in the middle of a solo/song? Not very efficiently. That's why they need to be memorized in all keys. Same goes for chords and inversions.
#20
I personally find that what's most important is the ways you learn the major/minor keys that matters most. Not so much which ones you learn. A lot of learning comes from just playing. Stuff like getting used to the notes and where they are exactly. So, you definitely want to play in all keys, but the pattern is the same. For me, it's most important to learn 2 of them, so that where the nut is is completely different, that way you learn the whole thing, something like C and G or something like that, far apart. Except for playing at the nut, every single key will be different pattern wise. So, for that position, you will want to learn almost every key, or every key, pattern-wise separately.

But really what I wanted to say is that it is easy to say "learn major scale" but really, if you want to fully wield the major scale, you'll want to learn it many different ways. It's not so easy to actually do at the level you want. That pattern is a big piece of the workload. People easily want more scales or different things. It's easy to believe that they will improve your playing, but it is really kind of like believing learning new words will help you become a better author. You want to improve with the ones you got. A new word would be seldom used. We all use the same common ones, but the variety of what we can say is infinite.

So, what you really want is to learn those basic things better, and in more ways. Major/minor and pentatonic or blues scale, which I also don't like to treat as something separate, are a huge chunk of music. Everything else is less kind of important, or less frequently used. So, learn the hell out major/minor and pentatonics, in every way you can. 3nps/harmonized, CAGED, box patterns, whatever, all of that stuff. You can stick to only major/minor and pentatonics, and get really good, and practice that for a really long time before really getting to where you should add more stuff. Just those alone are a lot of work to know as well as you should, imo. The other ones are kind of like small details. Though harmonic minor I find is definitely the biggest detail, you can get by playing it without really knowing it, if you play the major/minor with chromaticism/passing notes.
#21
It's for technical prowess, and dexterity. Undervalued for that purpose. Chromatic would obviously be the same in every key..

Quote by AlanHB
TheHarvest - not sure how useful the chromatic scale is, let alone only learning it in E. Past learning the names of all the notes, it's doesn't help you much in achieving a specific sound - it's just all the notes. Realistically you won't be doing chromatic scales all the time, rather just employing runs here and there to link chord tones.
#22
If you wanted total prowess and dexterity, then learn everything in every key.
"There are two styles of music. Good music and bad music." -Duke Ellington

"If you really think about it, the guitar is a pointless instrument." - Robert Fripp
#23
>post a video referring to the usefulness of the chromatic scale
>someone mentions the chromatic scale
>"chromatic scale is useless"
modes are a social construct
#24
To be fair, the chromatic scale is somewhat useless. I use it a lot more on piano than on guitar, but on guitar I think it's because I can do slides which are basically the same thing.

Idk why Victor Wooten advocates it the way he did in the video. Imo, he's probably the best bassist that walks the earth today, but chromatic scale is just all the notes. The reason there exists something called scale is because there are specific patterns that have specific meaning, and that's important.

I mean, to me, "use chromatic scale, if you can do that, you can play anything" is obvious, but if I took that approach, I would inevitably notice these other patterns of notes, which are significant.

Chromatic scale can be used as a way to get proficient with dexterity, but simply running up and down any scale is not sufficient. You need to be able to go to and from any not that you will ever want to go to and from, and the reality is that all of those intervals will be for the large part intervals of common scales, or just a half step slide out of the scale into it. You would only ever do chromatic if you do a small chromatic run. So, your much better off focussing on learning the major/minor/modes pattern in every conceivable way you could approach it, than practicing the chromatic scale.

Victor Wooten's advice in that video I find is poor. I feel like he wanted to try and find some zen sage mind blowing piece of advice, or it was out of context maybe or something. Idk. But while chromaticism is a great and powerful thing both in single notes and chords, I think it's pretty far down the list of things to focus on on guitar.

On piano I would put it higher up the priority list for dexterity and for playability, because you can't slide, and every key changes pattern on piano, so it's a great dexterity tool.

Obviously everything you could learn has a use. What's difficult is prioritizing it all correctly and learning it the right way to get the most use out of it for what sort of instrumentalist you want to become as soon as you possibly can.

On guitar, I wouldn't suggest practicing chromatic scale until later, I don't find it that useful really it's like a detail, but the major/minor/modes pattern is the real meat and potatoes, and you can explore only that, for a long time without exhausting its value.
#25
This.

Wooten is way too dogmatic to be helpful.
"There are two styles of music. Good music and bad music." -Duke Ellington

"If you really think about it, the guitar is a pointless instrument." - Robert Fripp
#26
This. +10.

Wooten is way too dogmatic to be helpful most of the time.
"There are two styles of music. Good music and bad music." -Duke Ellington

"If you really think about it, the guitar is a pointless instrument." - Robert Fripp
#27
Quote by The Harvest
It's for technical prowess, and dexterity. Undervalued for that purpose. Chromatic would obviously be the same in every key..


It's not undervalued for that purpose - there are heaps of speed building exercises bases around the chromatic scale.

However it would be just as useful to drill the major/minor scales for technical prowess, and you'd also be learning runs that you're more likely to use in the context of a song.
And no, Guitar Hero will not help. Even on expert. Really.
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#28
I think Wooten's point wasn't that you should learn to play the chromatic scale (like you would learn to play the major scale). His point was that you should learn the sound of every note (in context) and that you can make every note sound like a "right note" if you can use them right. To me "using the chromatic scale" usually means something atonal or just some basic chromatic lines, for example the bassline in Stairway to Heaven. If you are mostly using the notes of the minor scale, but you also use the 5 notes outside of it, I wouldn't say you are playing the chromatic scale - I would say you are playing the minor scale and using accidentals. Because that's what it sounds like.

So yeah, to me Victor's point wasn't that you should learn to play the chromatic scale up and down (everybody can do that). His point was that any note can be made sound good and you should also learn to use the "wrong notes". You should learn the sound of different notes.
Quote by AlanHB
Just remember that there are no boring scales, just boring players.

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#29
Right of course, but he should have just said that instead of trying to craft some pseudo-zen-new- age-type philosophy on playing over chord changes.
"There are two styles of music. Good music and bad music." -Duke Ellington

"If you really think about it, the guitar is a pointless instrument." - Robert Fripp
#30
^ Well, I have understood that he's really not that great at theory so he explains stuff in his own words, rather than with theoretically correct terms. I didn't really have a problem with understanding his point.

I really like the Groove Workshop DVD. It has some great stuff in it.
Quote by AlanHB
Just remember that there are no boring scales, just boring players.

Gear

Bach Stradivarius 37G
Charvel So Cal
Fender Dimension Bass
Hartke HyDrive 210c
Ibanez BL70
Laney VC30
Tokai TB48
Yamaha FG720S-12
Yamaha P115
#31
Yeah, it's a great resource, I've seen it.

I had to read Wooten's book at Berklee, and found it ... well bad.

Not so much that I found his points confusing, but I feel like he chocks things up to "you just gotta feel the music" and similar sentiment instead of more pragmatic advice.

But to each their own, everyone learns differently. My approach just happens to be:

"Engage plan X. Execute plan to the letter. Prepare backup plan. Execute backup plan. Repeat."

"There are two styles of music. Good music and bad music." -Duke Ellington

"If you really think about it, the guitar is a pointless instrument." - Robert Fripp
#32
I read Wooten's book and liked it. Well, I did once I realized the point of the weird psuedo-spiritual crazy stuff and other parts that seem pretty wishy-washy was simply him driving home the point that you shouldn't just believe what someone tells you, you need to think about it and fully understand it and decide for yourself.

It seems to me that the deal with learning how all of the notes sound is aimed at people that do know their scales, but have trouble breaking out of them. I think a lot of the message in his book is aimed at people who get into the trap of thinking about notes too much and not actually listening to what it sounds like, especially the other 'elements' of music, which is something I know I find myself doing sometimes. It is important to know your scales and chords etc. but there are tons of books and people teaching that part - I'm guessing he saw a void and that's why he did what he did in that book and the DVD (I haven't seen the DVD other than the clip up there, I'm guessing it's similar stuff.)
Last edited by The4thHorsemen at Mar 7, 2015,
#33
Quote by MaggaraMarine
I think Wooten's point wasn't that you should learn to play the chromatic scale (like you would learn to play the major scale). His point was that you should learn the sound of every note (in context) and that you can make every note sound like a "right note" if you can use them right. To me "using the chromatic scale" usually means something atonal or just some basic chromatic lines, for example the bassline in Stairway to Heaven. If you are mostly using the notes of the minor scale, but you also use the 5 notes outside of it, I wouldn't say you are playing the chromatic scale - I would say you are playing the minor scale and using accidentals. Because that's what it sounds like.

So yeah, to me Victor's point wasn't that you should learn to play the chromatic scale up and down (everybody can do that). His point was that any note can be made sound good and you should also learn to use the "wrong notes". You should learn the sound of different notes.


He specifically said to practice the chromatic scale though. Of course you want to learn to use all the notes, but learning a scale isn't learning "the notes you are allowed to play" It is learning the notes and naming according to a class they belong, and where they belong in it. The outside ones are all alone, as he said, so they are also easily classified by using a scale.

A scale lets your brain make sense of it. That's why we classify and name things. It's not algorithms that tell you what to do. It's naming flavours.

If that's what he meant, then that's what he should have said. "Practice the chromatic scale, it's a scale nobody ever practices but they should, because if you can do that, you can do anything." Is not advice I would ever give to anyone. That's what he said. So, either he intended to give poor advice or he poorly converted what he wanted to say into speech. Either way, even though I think he is awesome, and I'm sure he has a lot of amazing things to say that people can learn from, this particular thing, I don't find is one of them.
#34
Quote by Jet Penguin
Yeah, it's a great resource, I've seen it.

I had to read Wooten's book at Berklee, and found it ... well bad.

Not so much that I found his points confusing, but I feel like he chocks things up to "you just gotta feel the music" and similar sentiment instead of more pragmatic advice.

But to each their own, everyone learns differently. My approach just happens to be:

"Engage plan X. Execute plan to the letter. Prepare backup plan. Execute backup plan. Repeat."



At the end of the day though, that's what it has to be. When you wrote that post you didn't use any "method" to figure out which words to use. You followed grammar you are accustomed to, and used words to which you learned the definition, but all of that is sort of meaningless. The real content came from your intent. The idea you wanted to convey, which came wholly from you, not any system you had developed.

I think music is this way, you feel rhythm, you listen intently, and execute what you feel like playing. Theory is there so that you can turn any idea into sound on your instrument. It isn't meant to give you ideas. Using theory that way, would be like constructing sentences mad libs style. Where you would want a noun and just roll for it out of all nouns in the dictionary, and do that for every word. You would have a tough time writing great poetry that way.
#35
Quote by fingrpikingood
He specifically said to practice the chromatic scale though. Of course you want to learn to use all the notes, but learning a scale isn't learning "the notes you are allowed to play" It is learning the notes and naming according to a class they belong, and where they belong in it. The outside ones are all alone, as he said, so they are also easily classified by using a scale.

A scale lets your brain make sense of it. That's why we classify and name things. It's not algorithms that tell you what to do. It's naming flavours.

If that's what he meant, then that's what he should have said. "Practice the chromatic scale, it's a scale nobody ever practices but they should, because if you can do that, you can do anything." Is not advice I would ever give to anyone. That's what he said. So, either he intended to give poor advice or he poorly converted what he wanted to say into speech. Either way, even though I think he is awesome, and I'm sure he has a lot of amazing things to say that people can learn from, this particular thing, I don't find is one of them.


As I said, he's not great at theory but I think his point was clear. If you watched the whole video, what I described was exactly his point. He talked about listening to the notes - listening to how every note works over a chord, and being able to be comfortable with all of the notes.

He said, if you can use the chromatic scale (ie, all notes), you can use any scale. I think the only thing that was wrong was that he used the term "chromatic scale" a bit wrong. As I said, I wouldn't refer to playing in a minor key and using all of the notes as "using the chromatic scale". I would say it's using the minor scale and accidentals. So I think instead of using the term "chromatic scale", he should have said something like "learn to use all notes, not just the 'safe' notes". That was the only mistake he made and it wasn't that bad. It didn't really make his point any less clear.

And usually when you learn to play a scale, you learn what notes are in the scale, not what notes are not in the scale. You pay attention to the notes in the scale. Also, when learning scales, most people just play them up and down to get them in their muscle memory. His point was that you can also use the "wrong" notes, if you know how to use them. Could be worded better, but I feel like people are just nitpicking. Basic internet - people are misunderstanding other people's words on purpose and overanalyzing every word they say.


His point had more to do with listening than actual playing - learning the sound of every note. As The4thHorsemen said, his point was more directed to those who feel like they are limited by scales - to people that already know scales and everything.
Quote by AlanHB
Just remember that there are no boring scales, just boring players.

Gear

Bach Stradivarius 37G
Charvel So Cal
Fender Dimension Bass
Hartke HyDrive 210c
Ibanez BL70
Laney VC30
Tokai TB48
Yamaha FG720S-12
Yamaha P115
Last edited by MaggaraMarine at Mar 8, 2015,
#36
Totally agree. Like I said, I have no problem with his method, and I know a lot of players who have benefitted from it, it just doesn't do anything for me, the hyper-analytical-robot.
"There are two styles of music. Good music and bad music." -Duke Ellington

"If you really think about it, the guitar is a pointless instrument." - Robert Fripp
#37
It doesn't need to be a pissing contest for what scale is the best. They are all equally useful, if you have a metronome. Chromatics are difficult to do smoothly on the guitar, all the way up 2 octaves diagonally across the neck, legato, sixteenth-note-triplets, so it's a good exercise to keep at along with all the other ones.

It's all about a healthy balance between all the different things - speed, technical, intervals, knowledge, physical ability, muscle memory, ear training, etc. etc.

People can easily fall into the trap of getting stuck inside the pentatonic home position, so getting outside the box is important to do.

Quote by AlanHB
It's not undervalued for that purpose - there are heaps of speed building exercises bases around the chromatic scale.

However it would be just as useful to drill the major/minor scales for technical prowess, and you'd also be learning runs that you're more likely to use in the context of a song.
#38
If you learn all the modes of C major, then at least on guitar, you pretty much have learned all the keys. Mastering C major will make transitions to keys like, Bb, make more sense, faster. Patterns are powerful tools!

And the blues scale is AKA, the bebop scale. It's a different scale because of the rhythm in the melody as it flows up and down. You're kinda saying 'ba-donk-a-donk-a' with the right hand.

Quote by Jet Penguin
Some thoughts:

But why wouldn't you learn everything in all keys...... (cough cough especially major scales)

Why would you only learn a C major scale? There's 11 more... Same goes for the other scales you listed. Music occurs in more than 5 keys/roots.

.
Last edited by The Harvest at Mar 8, 2015,
#39
Quote by MaggaraMarine
As I said, he's not great at theory but I think his point was clear. If you watched the whole video, what I described was exactly his point. He talked about listening to the notes - listening to how every note works over a chord, and being able to be comfortable with all of the notes.

He said, if you can use the chromatic scale (ie, all notes), you can use any scale. I think the only thing that was wrong was that he used the term "chromatic scale" a bit wrong. As I said, I wouldn't refer to playing in a minor key and using all of the notes as "using the chromatic scale". I would say it's using the minor scale and accidentals. So I think instead of using the term "chromatic scale", he should have said something like "learn to use all notes, not just the 'safe' notes". That was the only mistake he made and it wasn't that bad. It didn't really make his point any less clear.

And usually when you learn to play a scale, you learn what notes are in the scale, not what notes are not in the scale. You pay attention to the notes in the scale. Also, when learning scales, most people just play them up and down to get them in their muscle memory. His point was that you can also use the "wrong" notes, if you know how to use them. Could be worded better, but I feel like people are just nitpicking. Basic internet - people are misunderstanding other people's words on purpose and overanalyzing every word they say.


His point had more to do with listening than actual playing - learning the sound of every note. As The4thHorsemen said, his point was more directed to those who feel like they are limited by scales - to people that already know scales and everything.


It doesn't matter why his advice was poor, whether it was poor advice that he successfully communicated, or it was good advice that he poorly communicated in such a way that the end result was poor advice.

What matters is what he said, what is actually in the video. Not whatever MaggaraMarine or anyone else speculates he actually meant to say.

I don't think "practice the chromatic scale, the scale I know none of you really practice." is good advice. That's all I'm saying. I'm not gonna put words in his mouth or re-interpret what he said for him. I don't care about that. I'm just saying that I don't think that's advice one should follow, whether that's the advice he intended to give or not.

I don't think he is so clueless about theory as to not know what a scale is, but whatever, that doesn't even matter, and I don't care to argue about what it is he meant to say as opposed to what it is he actually said. That wouldn't make any sense. A discussion like that can only make sense if Victor Wooten is one of the people involved.

What matters is what's in the video, and whhat people should take from it. I mean, people can do whatever they want, but this is a discussion forum, and I'm just stating that I don't think that video is advice someone should follow. It's my opinion. I don't care what victor wooten meant to say or anything like that. It's just a video with advice in it. I don't think it's advice one should follow, that's it. If you reinterpret it into advice I think people should follow, then I would think people should follow the interpretation, and not the original.

I'm just saying, don't watch that video and then go practice the chromatic scale. That's all. It's not that complicated. He says to do that. You think it was misuse of language, I don't think it matters. Just don't go do that, is all I am saying.
Last edited by fingrpikingood at Mar 8, 2015,
#40
Quote by The Harvest
[scales] are all equally useful.


I disagree. Some are more useful than others. That doesn't mean some are "better" and if you use one scale or another your music will be better, or you are a better musician because you know more exotic scales, or whatever. But definitely some of them are much more useful than others. They are not just like equal colors in a palette, they are real discoveries of patterns which sort of work a certain way in music.

I mean, if all you know is symmetric diminished scale, then you will have a tough time, as opposed to only knowing major scale. It's just not as frequently useful. It's not as fundamental of a concept to know.

Like, the word "atom" is not a worse word than hello, but if you learn a new language, you will probably learn hello first, because you'll get a lot more mileage out of it.
Last edited by fingrpikingood at Mar 8, 2015,
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