#1
Hey, I'm trying to find a song (preferably a Fingerstyle guitar piece).

I'm trying to find a song that's in a Minor Key and it contains elements of the Harmonic and Melodic minor scales.

Does anyone think they could help me out?

Like, I said, preferably, I'd like a fingerstyle guitar piece - one by Andy McKee, Don Ross, Antoine Dufour, or guys like that. (Preferably one of those three? )

Also, if anyone does happen to find one, do you think you could point out the parts in the song that have it?

Thanks for reading, much appreciated.
#3
Those guys usually play in open tuning to make things easier. A large number of minor key songs will work fine in harmonic minor as well. They often have a major V chord, instead of minor, which turns natural minor into harmonic minor.

If you look for harmonic minor backing track in youtube you'll find some to play to.

this track is cool, acoustic arrangement in this version, and has that 'V' I was talking to you about.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XRrR26ifcaE

Those candyrat guys are generally not really the way to go for learning scales and chords and stuff. It's usually all set pieces, often in open tunings that they are playing.

Tommy emmanuel is a better source for that. I'm sure he has a lot of such tunes, and his set pieces are often in standard tuning.

I don't know any off the top of my head.
#4
Quote by fingrpikingood
Those guys usually play in open tuning to make things easier. A large number of minor key songs will work fine in harmonic minor as well. They often have a major V chord, instead of minor, which turns natural minor into harmonic minor.

If you look for harmonic minor backing track in youtube you'll find some to play to.

this track is cool, acoustic arrangement in this version, and has that 'V' I was talking to you about.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XRrR26ifcaE

Those candyrat guys are generally not really the way to go for learning scales and chords and stuff. It's usually all set pieces, often in open tunings that they are playing.

Tommy emmanuel is a better source for that. I'm sure he has a lot of such tunes, and his set pieces are often in standard tuning.

I don't know any off the top of my head.

Hey, thanks for the answer. I'm not necessarily trying to learn the scales - I know them. I'm just trying to find a song in that style that may have elements of a Harmonic and Melodic Minor scale in them. I don't think they need to be full on scales - just show that they're in them. And the song needs to be in a minor key.

Yeah, Tommy Emmanuel might be better, because he's in standard. I get why these guys play in open tunings and such, but that wouldn't take away the elements of some of these things would it?

I figured out that Reality by Antoine Dufour: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b1GZC0GQKOA is in the key of B minor.

Do you happen to recognize any melodic or harmonic minor scale elements in it?

I found sheet music for it: https://www.jellynote.com/en/sheet-music-tabs/antoine-dufour/reality/53422512f879594502fa5be4#tabs:%23score_A

The only thing is, I don't know exactly what I'm looking for. I know how the scales are constructed, I just don't know what to look for beyond their original formula.

Like, I know a Harmonic scale is a natural Minor, but with the 7th note raised a half step.

But, yeah... I just don't know what to look for I guess. Like I said, I get what you're saying with the open tunings and such, but wouldn't the elements still be there if they were being used?
#5
Quote by GloatenFree
Hey, thanks for the answer. I'm not necessarily trying to learn the scales - I know them. I'm just trying to find a song in that style that may have elements of a Harmonic and Melodic Minor scale in them. I don't think they need to be full on scales - just show that they're in them. And the song needs to be in a minor key.

Yeah, Tommy Emmanuel might be better, because he's in standard. I get why these guys play in open tunings and such, but that wouldn't take away the elements of some of these things would it?

I figured out that Reality by Antoine Dufour: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b1GZC0GQKOA is in the key of B minor.

Do you happen to recognize any melodic or harmonic minor scale elements in it?

I found sheet music for it: https://www.jellynote.com/en/sheet-music-tabs/antoine-dufour/reality/53422512f879594502fa5be4#tabs:%23score_A

The only thing is, I don't know exactly what I'm looking for. I know how the scales are constructed, I just don't know what to look for beyond their original formula.

Like, I know a Harmonic scale is a natural Minor, but with the 7th note raised a half step.

But, yeah... I just don't know what to look for I guess. Like I said, I get what you're saying with the open tunings and such, but wouldn't the elements still be there if they were being used?



I don't really see the value of a scale other than it attaching a sound to a pattern on a fretboard.

I'm sure they often work in minor keys, and use harmonic minor, but it will be in some other pattern.

"how to use harmonic minor" is of no value to me. It's like saying "how to use the word apple" I don't care how others use the word apple really. I care to hear them say what they have to say, and if they talk about apples, I might recall some anecdote if the topic comes up, but I'm not going to look at the words in the sentence and try to find some recipe with how to use the word. I just know what the word is, and what it means, and I'll use it when that's the word I want.

Same with harmonic minor. I know the pattern, I know the sound. That's all I need.

If I hear any melody, I can remember it and sing it. If I remember one, and go to play it, I might realize I am using that note which makes harmonic minor harmonic minor.

The ideas in sound are in my mind, the scales are how to make them sound out of my guitar.

If you give me a guitar that's tuned differently, it might inspire me a little differently, but the ideas will be the same thing, it will just be a pain because I won't know off by heart how to immediately access every sound at speed. But if I hunt for a bit and find it, I could play a set piece like that. It doesn't help me learn anything in any way though, to learn anything harmonic minor on some weird tuning, because whatever i learned is only applicable there. What I want, has nothing to do with any theory. How to play what I want does.

That's why it would be pointless to me to learn that stuff in that way. Unless you really want to master an alternate tuning, but they are less flexible, so if you really want to be able to freestyle, to play to the limits of your imagination as much as possible, then you want standard tuning really.

That's why I never play in odd tunings, and never learn anything candyrat. You could rewrite all of theory to fit them, and it probably exists on the internet, but really all you can do is learn their tunes, and just mess around, play with the open strings and hammer ons and stuff. It's not so much a style of scales and things like that. I don't find anyway.

It's tough enough to learn standard tuning inside out. Forget learning it all in multiple tunings.

That's why it is set pieces they play, and not freestyle.
#6
Quote by fingrpikingood
I don't really see the value of a scale other than it attaching a sound to a pattern on a fretboard.

I'm sure they often work in minor keys, and use harmonic minor, but it will be in some other pattern.

"how to use harmonic minor" is of no value to me. It's like saying "how to use the word apple" I don't care how others use the word apple really. I care to hear them say what they have to say, and if they talk about apples, I might recall some anecdote if the topic comes up, but I'm not going to look at the words in the sentence and try to find some recipe with how to use the word. I just know what the word is, and what it means, and I'll use it when that's the word I want.

Same with harmonic minor. I know the pattern, I know the sound. That's all I need.

If I hear any melody, I can remember it and sing it. If I remember one, and go to play it, I might realize I am using that note which makes harmonic minor harmonic minor.

The ideas in sound are in my mind, the scales are how to make them sound out of my guitar.

If you give me a guitar that's tuned differently, it might inspire me a little differently, but the ideas will be the same thing, it will just be a pain because I won't know off by heart how to immediately access every sound at speed. But if I hunt for a bit and find it, I could play a set piece like that. It doesn't help me learn anything in any way though, to learn anything harmonic minor on some weird tuning, because whatever i learned is only applicable there. What I want, has nothing to do with any theory. How to play what I want does.

That's why it would be pointless to me to learn that stuff in that way. Unless you really want to master an alternate tuning, but they are less flexible, so if you really want to be able to freestyle, to play to the limits of your imagination as much as possible, then you want standard tuning really.

That's why I never play in odd tunings, and never learn anything candyrat. You could rewrite all of theory to fit them, and it probably exists on the internet, but really all you can do is learn their tunes, and just mess around, play with the open strings and hammer ons and stuff. It's not so much a style of scales and things like that. I don't find anyway.

It's tough enough to learn standard tuning inside out. Forget learning it all in multiple tunings.

That's why it is set pieces they play, and not freestyle.


Well, I guess that makes sense. I realize that when you're playing in altered tunings - theory sort of goes out the window. So, maybe Tommy Emmanuel WOULD be the way to go when for trying to find a song that fits this description.

But, I'm still curious to see if there are elements of those scales in Reality.

And yeah, that makes sense - more often than not an altered tuning used by an artist is only used on a couple of songs and that's it.

I don't know if looking at the sheet music would help, though, if you'd be able to tell by looking at that.
#7
Quote by GloatenFree
Well, I guess that makes sense. I realize that when you're playing in altered tunings - theory sort of goes out the window. So, maybe Tommy Emmanuel WOULD be the way to go when for trying to find a song that fits this description.

But, I'm still curious to see if there are elements of those scales in Reality.

And yeah, that makes sense - more often than not an altered tuning used by an artist is only used on a couple of songs and that's it.

I don't know if looking at the sheet music would help, though, if you'd be able to tell by looking at that.


It would. It is very easy. Sheet music is specifically designed cleverly to be simple. They set it up so that it works on a key relative basis. That means that they put the symbols they need (sharp or flat) at the beginning of the staff, so you know what key you're in. Then all of the notes after that, don't need any symbols if they are part of the key. That makes it real easy to read, especially on piano.

That means if there are any notes which have a sharp or flat symbol next to them they will be notes which are out of key, which could then be looked at as a different scale. Harmonic minor is the same as minor except for one note is slid over a bit. it's the 3rd which is down a half step. So, if that note is flat, then probably there is harmonic minor there.

I don't read sheet music. Now you know what I know.

What you want to do though, if you want to learn about harmonic minor, is to play it often, learn its sound. Play it in lots of songs, whether they are the style you want or not. Then you will be able to recognize it by sound. That's what you want, right? That's how it is useful. You are naming sounds in music. Not algorithms or patterns. But patterns are also part of the definition in a way. That's how you produce the sound. There is nothing important other than that.

You want to work from sound, what you hear, and what you imagine. Not off of theory.

The candyrat guys will generally play modal stuff because they often make use of open strings. It gives a very rhythmic and complex or advanced feel, but also monotonous in a way, because those drones return a lot. Like, they probably really rarely ever switch key during a piece because their open root wouldn't work anymore.

Harmonic minor is often used, like I said earlier, when the v converts to V in natural minor, which kind of emphasizes that V. But, if you are tuned open vi for a natural minor tune, you will still have open vi, when probably what you'd want at that point is open V. So, they probably don't use harmonic minor as much as say R&B does, or something like that. But they probably do somewhere. You could have a whole track in harmonic minor.

I don't listen to that stuff that much, but harmonic minor is really not what comes to mind to me when I think candyrat.

Find stuff that you know has harmonic minor in it. Play harmonic minor. Then you will know what it sounds like, and you will hear it when tommy plays it, or when it might pop up in candyrat stuff.

Your question really ought to be "What does harmonic minor sound like?" and then you can answer all sorts of questions like this. You can also use it whenever you want in whatever way you want, whimsically, because you won't have to plot a graph and find the derivative of functions in order to ascertain at what point you should use this thing. You will think of a sound you want, and know that sound, you will recognize it as harmonic minor, and you will know exactly how to play it. That's how it is possible to do it spontaneously. It is not possible to spontaneously look at a piece and analyze it, create a set of possibilities to choose from, and then execute based on a certain set of parameters. Imagine you spoke that way. Trying to look at grammar, the fuction of words, and how people use words, in order to to build your sentences. It would take you forever to say a sentence, and the one you would say would probably not make a whole lot of sense. It doesn't work that way. You say the words you want based on what you want to say, not based on any theory of words. Music is like that. except the definition of words are sounds, and you can't just speak them, you need to learn how to access them on an instrument. You can sing melodies though, and that's easy. You would sing a harmonic minor lick without ever knowing it is harmonic minor, no problem.

If you're not learning any pattern, then who cares what the sound is called? You hear it in your mind, want to use it, and have to hunt for it no matter what.

imo, you're wasting your time looking at anything theory with the candyrat guys.
#8
Quote by fingrpikingood
It would. It is very easy. Sheet music is specifically designed cleverly to be simple. They set it up so that it works on a key relative basis. That means that they put the symbols they need (sharp or flat) at the beginning of the staff, so you know what key you're in. Then all of the notes after that, don't need any symbols if they are part of the key. That makes it real easy to read, especially on piano.

That means if there are any notes which have a sharp or flat symbol next to them they will be notes which are out of key, which could then be looked at as a different scale. Harmonic minor is the same as minor except for one note is slid over a bit. it's the 3rd which is down a half step. So, if that note is flat, then probably there is harmonic minor there.

I don't read sheet music. Now you know what I know.

What you want to do though, if you want to learn about harmonic minor, is to play it often, learn its sound. Play it in lots of songs, whether they are the style you want or not. Then you will be able to recognize it by sound. That's what you want, right? That's how it is useful. You are naming sounds in music. Not algorithms or patterns. But patterns are also part of the definition in a way. That's how you produce the sound. There is nothing important other than that.

You want to work from sound, what you hear, and what you imagine. Not off of theory.

The candyrat guys will generally play modal stuff because they often make use of open strings. It gives a very rhythmic and complex or advanced feel, but also monotonous in a way, because those drones return a lot. Like, they probably really rarely ever switch key during a piece because their open root wouldn't work anymore.

Harmonic minor is often used, like I said earlier, when the v converts to V in natural minor, which kind of emphasizes that V. But, if you are tuned open vi for a natural minor tune, you will still have open vi, when probably what you'd want at that point is open V. So, they probably don't use harmonic minor as much as say R&B does, or something like that. But they probably do somewhere. You could have a whole track in harmonic minor.

I don't listen to that stuff that much, but harmonic minor is really not what comes to mind to me when I think candyrat.

Find stuff that you know has harmonic minor in it. Play harmonic minor. Then you will know what it sounds like, and you will hear it when tommy plays it, or when it might pop up in candyrat stuff.

Your question really ought to be "What does harmonic minor sound like?" and then you can answer all sorts of questions like this. You can also use it whenever you want in whatever way you want, whimsically, because you won't have to plot a graph and find the derivative of functions in order to ascertain at what point you should use this thing. You will think of a sound you want, and know that sound, you will recognize it as harmonic minor, and you will know exactly how to play it. That's how it is possible to do it spontaneously. It is not possible to spontaneously look at a piece and analyze it, create a set of possibilities to choose from, and then execute based on a certain set of parameters. Imagine you spoke that way. Trying to look at grammar, the fuction of words, and how people use words, in order to to build your sentences. It would take you forever to say a sentence, and the one you would say would probably not make a whole lot of sense. It doesn't work that way. You say the words you want based on what you want to say, not based on any theory of words. Music is like that. except the definition of words are sounds, and you can't just speak them, you need to learn how to access them on an instrument. You can sing melodies though, and that's easy. You would sing a harmonic minor lick without ever knowing it is harmonic minor, no problem.

If you're not learning any pattern, then who cares what the sound is called? You hear it in your mind, want to use it, and have to hunt for it no matter what.

imo, you're wasting your time looking at anything theory with the candyrat guys.


Hm, thanks for the insightful post.

Yeah, I get it, these guys don't use theory too much except maybe the tunings.

I sort of have a sound linked with a Harmonic Minor - the "Here Comes the Bride" tune. I don't have one for a melodic one, though.

But, yeah, I see what you're saying. I suppose I'll look elsewhere.
#9
Quote by GloatenFree
Hm, thanks for the insightful post.

Yeah, I get it, these guys don't use theory too much except maybe the tunings.

I sort of have a sound linked with a Harmonic Minor - the "Here Comes the Bride" tune. I don't have one for a melodic one, though.

But, yeah, I see what you're saying. I suppose I'll look elsewhere.


If you're talking about the tune I think you're talking about, that sounds like a major key in my head. Harmonic minor I use a lot, melodic minor, not so much. I can't think of songs where I use melodic minor.

But for me, when I think harmonic minor, I think of "remember the time" From michael jackson, and virtual insanity, and general R&B, really a lot of stuff. It's incredibly common in songs that are in a minor key. Melodic minor, not so much. But if you play around with harmonic minor, you'll see that extra note of melodic minor cadences well into it, well into the note of harmonic minor which doesn't exist in natural minor.

The harmonic minor kind of turns the V into major key sort of V, and melodic minor does the same for the IV. But, I don't find melodic minor the same sort of beast as harmonic minor. It's kind of more for melody, rather than the way harmonic minor is, which I guess is why they call it that. It's more common of a sound in classical sort of music, but you'll see if you play it, it sounds nice.

btw, sorry, harmonic minor is the 7th of natural minor up a half step, idk what I was thinking last post but it was very wrong.
Last edited by fingrpikingood at Feb 27, 2015,
#10
^ I think the most common use of melodic minor is over the V chord in an ascending melodic line where the melody goes like 5-6-7-1. You can of course also use the major IV or minor ii chord (though on their own they don't really sound like melodic minor - they have more of a dorian sound). For example ii(minor)-V-i is sometimes used. One song that comes to my mind is "The Shadow of Your Smile". It begins with a minor ii chord which is followed by the V and i chords.
Quote by AlanHB
Just remember that there are no boring scales, just boring players.

Gear

Bach Stradivarius 37G
Charvel So Cal
Fender Dimension Bass
Hartke HyDrive 210c
Ibanez BL70
Laney VC30
Tokai TB48
Yamaha FG720S-12
Yamaha P115
#11
Quote by MaggaraMarine
^ I think the most common use of melodic minor is over the V chord in an ascending melodic line where the melody goes like 5-6-7-1.


Right. in my mind though, it's melodic minor for the 6-7 half, and then 7-1 is the harmonic minor half sort of thing.

To me, from what I can tell is that it is really just a complicated way to say that it sounds good to lead into the #7 of harmonic minor, from a full step before it. Sort of, but it is sensible to make that a scale and give it a name. Melodic minor sounds like a good choice to me also. It's actually very close to just playing the relative major. Just the 5th is still raised, I think.

It's not something that stands out as being that important to me though really. It's kind of like if you're learning to read and write, you first start with the regular sounds of all the letters, then the common stuff like 'th' 'ch' and stuff like how a vowel changes like "mile" or "mill" depending on what comes after. Consistent stuff, and then, oh ya, knife is spelled with a 'k' for some ******ed reason. It's not something I would start with. Melodic minor is pretty far down the food chain for me.

I think a common mistake of amateurs is they think of theory as one lump sum, of all these chords and all these scales, and they think "I have to learn theory" Like they have to learn all of this collection of things. But there is a logical order I find, and it's really not that complicated if you follow it.

It's easy to find an internet resource with tons of scales, and tons of chords, but that's not really theory. It's more how it all fits together. Scales and chords and stuff are not like colors. It's not a palette of all equal things you use equally.