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#2
Were they really wrestling for a gun this time? Also 5 shots seems excessive, unless multiple police officers were shooting.
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#4
You yanks and your sidearms.
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#5
Quote by Neo Evil11
Were they really wrestling for a gun this time? Also 5 shots seems excessive, unless multiple police officers were shooting.

I think multiple officers firing at one unarmed and pinned man would be more excessive than 5 shots from one officer.

Either way you look at it though it's excessive.
Quote by Trowzaa
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#6
Quote by eGraham
I think multiple officers firing at one unarmed and pinned man would be more excessive than 5 shots from one officer.

Either way you look at it though it's excessive.

One officer can be heard on the video saying, "Drop the gun. Drop the gun.'' At least five gunshots could be heard. Police said three officers were involved in the shooting.


Can you call it pinned down when he is fighting for a gun? And if he reached the gun and 3 officers shoot in panic simultaneously, I wouldn't call it excessive.
Quote by Carmel
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#7
If, as is alleged, the deceased was struggling for / had acquired an officer's sidearm, the shooting will be ruled justified.

Hopefully there are more videos and the truth prevails, whatever that may be.

Claiming a given number of shots "excessive" only serves to show a significant lack of understanding of crisis and procedure.
“Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge.”
Charles Darwin
Last edited by Arby911 at Mar 2, 2015,
#8
I didn't hear the Drop the Gun part till the 2nd time I watched it, so the first view felt pretty shocking. I was kinda looking at the girl that grabbed the police baton and the cops apprehended her.

It's hard to tell from that angle if the guy had a gun, or was just reaching for one. Either way, if the threat was legit, they warned him twice before shooting to kill. It also bothered me that the patron, mostly African American, were calling the officer, also African American, a "****ing sellout".

Can't believe this happened yesterday too. I thought that this had JUST happened.
Quote by Arby911
If, as is alleged, the deceased was struggling for / had acquired an officer's sidearm, the shooting will be ruled justified.

Hopefully there are more videos and the truth prevails, whatever that may be.

Claiming a given number of shots "excessive" only serves to show a significant lack of understanding of crisis and procedure.

That's not stopping the public outcry from immediately calling the LAPD murderers and such. In fact, so far, that's all I see anywhere that there's a comment section for an article related to this.

The facts won't matter once the race baiters OR the figureheads that scream "Police love killing black men" come out of the wood works. They'll neglect the facts (if they're proven) it'll be an uproar as usual
Last edited by bdof at Mar 2, 2015,
#9
Quote by bdof
I didn't hear the Drop the Gun part till the 2nd time I watched it, so the first view felt pretty shocking. I was kinda looking at the girl that grabbed the police baton and the cops apprehended her.

It's hard to tell from that angle if the guy had a gun, or was just reaching for one. Either way, if the threat was legit, they warned him twice before shooting to kill. It also bothered me that the patron, mostly African American, were calling the officer, also African American, a "****ing sellout".

Can't believe this happened yesterday too. I thought that this had JUST happened.

That's not stopping the public outcry from immediately calling the LAPD murderers and such. In fact, so far, that's all I see anywhere that there's a comment section for an article related to this.

The facts won't matter once the race baiters OR the figureheads that scream "Police love killing black men" come out of the wood works. They'll neglect the facts (if they're proven) it'll be an uproar as usual

to me this is waaay different from the Brown and especially that other case. Clear proof here that the police was acting within their rights. Do I believe they should shoot to kill here? No, but I suppose they are trained to do that.
Quote by Carmel
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#10
Well there were a lot more variables to the other cases too.
One was a cop's word vs a bunch of witnesses that later admitted they'd lied, and the other was a very out of shape man that got put in a "choke" that didn't kill him, but put him in physical situation his body couldn't handle due to his own health issues.

I think this might end up settling itself as well, but no matter what, it'll still likely be used as a beacon for those that dislike cops to further their own hate of them
#11
Quote by bdof
Well there were a lot more variables to the other cases too.
One was a cop's word vs a bunch of witnesses that later admitted they'd lied, and the other was a very out of shape man that got put in a "choke" that didn't kill him, but put him in physical situation his body couldn't handle due to his own health issues.

I think this might end up settling itself as well, but no matter what, it'll still likely be used as a beacon for those that dislike cops to further their own hate of them

you mean the choke position that was banned by the police force and in fact did kill him like the coroner testified?
Quote by Carmel
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#12
Quote by Arby911
Claiming a given number of shots "excessive" only serves to show a significant lack of understanding of crisis and procedure.


what
i don't know why i feel so dry
#13
Quote by Eastwinn
what

basically this

what
Quote by Trowzaa
I wish I was American.

~ A Rolling Potato Gathers No Moss ~
#14
Quote by bdof
It also bothered me that the patron, mostly African American, were calling the officer, also African American, a "****ing sellout".


as a thick white conservative on the internet, i doubt you can even begin to understand what this means
i don't know why i feel so dry
#15
Quote by bdof
The facts won't matter once the race baiters OR the figureheads that scream "Police love killing black men" come out of the wood works.


are you suggesting race does not affect police/justice work?

edit: hahah nvm the first clause of my last post answered that
i don't know why i feel so dry
#16
While the shooting may end up being justified because of the circumstances that developed, that doesn't validate the actions of a group of armed policemen creating the conditions whereby which a mentally ill homeless person is grasping for a firearm to theoretically protect his life, however ill conceived his plan may be.

This is very unfortunate.
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#17
Quote by Dreadnought
While the shooting may end up being justified because of the circumstances that developed, that doesn't validate the actions of a group of armed policemen creating the conditions whereby which a mentally ill homeless person is grasping for a firearm to theoretically protect his life, however ill conceived his plan may be.

This is very unfortunate.

Hmm good point.
Quote by Carmel
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#18
Quote by Dreadnought
While the shooting may end up being justified because of the circumstances that developed, that doesn't validate the actions of a group of armed policemen creating the conditions whereby which a mentally ill homeless person is grasping for a firearm to theoretically protect his life, however ill conceived his plan may be.

This is very unfortunate.

stop being so reasonable all the time.
mugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmug
#19
Quote by Neo Evil11
you mean the choke position that was banned by the police force and in fact did kill him like the coroner testified?

I'll explain how this works to people that aren't as educated in choke holds as I've become over 5 years of Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu and a Wrestler since I was 12.

It was banned because cops don't frequently train Jiu-Jitsu, and know when to release, and where exactly to place the choke.

The choke the cop had on him was indirectly applied, this the forearm and wrist across his chin and wind pipe. That type of choke wouldn't kill him unless the cop was Gorilla strong and crushed his wind pipe. It's still a legal choke to apply in Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu contests, and MMA contests, but it's more of a "pain" submission, rather than an oxygen choke. It's prob a good reason cops shouldn't do it, since it doesn't really amount to anything beside just really hurting someone.

Now, a Carotid artery choke on the other hand, is the one you have to watch for. It cuts off blood flow to the brain in a matter of seconds and can kill you in under a minute if not released.

Two things lead me to believe the cop didn't have a Carotid choke.
One, the angles were all wrong. You need to shut off both Carotid arteries for the choke to work, with the choke arm's shoulder/bicep pressed into that side, and the forearm/wrist into the other. This give the choke that classic V look to it. The cop's was straight across his throat.
And two, Garner was able to cry out several time "I can't breath". You can't call out anything when the choke is applied effectively. It essentially comes out in a gurgle.

The coroner is both right AND wrong in this case. The choke led to his being put on the ground and having several cops on top of him. A healthy person likely would've survived this situation, but Mr. Garner wasn't exactly very healthy person, such as heart disease, severe asthma, diabetes, obesity, and sleep apnea.

I hope this helps a little bit.
#20
Quote by bdof
The coroner is both right AND wrong in this case. The choke led to his being put on the ground and having several cops on top of him. A healthy person likely would've survived this situation, but Mr. Garner wasn't exactly very healthy person, such as heart disease, severe asthma, diabetes, obesity, and sleep apnea.

I hope this helps a little bit.

I'm sorry. Once you start saying the expert used in the case is wrong based on your analysis of a vid, then I wil just say shut the **** up. You are making excuses where you can't make any. And no 5 years of martial arts training does not make you an expert. Cause if that were the case then I would be an expert as well.
Quote by Carmel
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#21
Quote by jakesmellspoo
stop being so reasonable all the time.


It's my civic duty
My God, it's full of stars!
#22
I didn't say anything about being an expert. Not sure where you got that. I have an educated guess based my own personal experiences.

Btw, what have you been doing for 5+ years? BJJ as well? I doubt that very much based on your, shall I say, lack of knowledge on the matter of how chokes work?

And I just looked at the tape again and I'll admit there's a brief moment where the cop had it applied correctly, but that doesn't convince me that the choke hold, and the choke hold alone is what killed him. I think more had to do with his personal health and the "chest compression" of being belly down and having several cops weighing 200+ lbs on to of him. It certainly is a better story though to say a "banned choke hold" was the reason. It's neatly wrapped and easy to contemplate for the casual viewer, allowing them to just eat it up.
#23
Quote by bdof
Btw, what have you been doing for 5+ years? BJJ as well? I doubt that very much based on your, shall I say, lack of knowledge on the matter of how chokes work?

Judo and for my lack of knowledge on how chokes work? I didn't discuss that. I am saying that the coroner who examined the damn body knows better than you what killed him. And a choke together with being pressed down is a nice cause of dead that you describe there. So you are convinced that the police are responsible?
Quote by Carmel
I can't believe you are whoring yourself out like that.

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Last edited by Neo Evil11 at Mar 2, 2015,
#24
Quote by Eastwinn
what


There is no practical way to set a specific number of shots that is acceptable or excessive prior to investigation of the incident in it's entirety. Even after a thorough investigation it's often difficult to make that judgment with any real authority.

In a close quarters defensive scenario you don't pause and assess after each round because there simply isn't time, you fire and assess simultaneously and you fire until you are CERTAIN the threat no longer exists. This often leads to what those lacking knowledge of weapons deem as overkill as it may be 1 shot and it may be 14 (or more) depending on circumstances.
“Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge.”
Charles Darwin
#25
Quote by Neo Evil11
Judo and for my lack of knowledge on how chokes work? I didn't discuss that. I am saying that the coroner who examined the damn body knows better than you what killed him. And a choke together with being pressed down is a nice cause of dead that you describe there. So you are convinced that the police are responsible?

Yes, I believe cops are mostly to blame. Garner was dumb and kept resisting, but they went too far. Just wish the guy had just cooperated, but he was dumb. Who else but a dummy would get arrested 30+ times for dumb little shit, and keep doing it?

I've always wanted to do Judo But I always felt my own wrestling would do the trick, so it's just one more thing I'd spend years at doing when I'd still like to focus on other stuff.
#28
This literally wouldn't have happened if cops didn't carry guns.


We need to work on slowly removing them. Stop glorifying them and start getting rid of our gun culture. Easier said than done I know but clearly something has to change, and not just trigger happy cops.
Last edited by Wormholes at Mar 2, 2015,
#30
Quote by Wormholes
This literally wouldn't have happened if cops didn't carry guns.


True.

It also wouldn't have happened if he hadn't resisted.

Or the cops had chosen to not respond.

Or any of several dozen other hypothetical scenarios I can imagine.

But yes, blame the tool, because it's always the tool.


Tool...
“Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge.”
Charles Darwin
#31
Quote by Arby911
There is no practical way to set a specific number of shots that is acceptable or excessive prior to investigation of the incident in it's entirety. Even after a thorough investigation it's often difficult to make that judgment with any real authority.

In a close quarters defensive scenario you don't pause and assess after each round because there simply isn't time, you fire and assess simultaneously and you fire until you are CERTAIN the threat no longer exists. This often leads to what those lacking knowledge of weapons deem as overkill as it may be 1 shot and it may be 14 (or more) depending on circumstances.


and you think this is such a reality that it's appropriate behavior for chumps running around with guns to which everything appears to be a nail? but this reality somehow doesn't apply to other western countries? in other words, are you saying this is okay or are you trying to describe reality?

regardless, if an officer lacks "knowledge of the weapon" should s/he even carry it?
i don't know why i feel so dry
#32
Quote by Eastwinn
and you think this is such a reality that it's appropriate behavior for chumps running around with guns to which everything appears to be a nail? but this reality somehow doesn't apply to other western countries? in other words, are you saying this is okay or are you trying to describe reality?

regardless, if an officer lacks "knowledge of the weapon" should s/he even carry it?


You misread, I've not said that the officers lacked "knowledge of the weapon" or implied it in any way.

But...I will say that in my experience, weapons training in many Police departments in the US is sorely lacking, often due to budget but as often as not due to indifference amongst top management.

I cannot speak to that in this specific case however.
“Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge.”
Charles Darwin
#33
ya i see that now. i'm actually in class right now this may be my cue to pick one thing to focus on
i don't know why i feel so dry
#34
Quote by Eastwinn
ya i see that now. i'm actually in class right now this may be my cue to pick one thing to focus on


Understood.
“Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge.”
Charles Darwin
#36
guys you do know that every time a cop reaches for there gun its always totally justified because we as average people lack the ability to determine if the shooting was excessive or not.
KIFFLOM
#37
Quote by sonic_hippy
guys you do know that every time a cop reaches for there gun its always totally justified because we as average people lack the ability to determine if the shooting was excessive or not.


While I recognize the weak attempt at sarcasm, that's generally more true than you know.
“Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge.”
Charles Darwin
#38
Quote by Arby911
While I recognize the weak attempt at sarcasm, that's generally more true than you know.

yes, i know that unless i was a cop, i would not be able to accuracy judge the validity of a cops decision.


but with out peoples jimmys getting rustled cops may feel that they can do what ever they want, for example, if they are a raciest, shoot black people because there in a white neighborhood (or for any reason really, racists are not known for being rational people), and people just accept that they will never know what its like to be a cop so the officer can do what ever he wants because we have been subdued. this is unlikely, but the thought of this reality is too much for me to take sitting down.

but then again there in the flip side of the coin whereas police will not intervene when things go awry out of fear of public disembowelment.

I would like to elaborate more, but I have other things to do, good day sir, kifflom
KIFFLOM
#39
Quote by sonic_hippy
yes, i know that unless i was a cop, i would not be able to accuracy judge the validity of a cops decision.


but with out peoples jimmys getting rustled cops may feel that they can do what ever they want, for example, if they are a raciest, shoot black people because there in a white neighborhood (or for any reason really, racists are not known for being rational people), and people just accept that they will never know what its like to be a cop so the officer can do what ever he wants because we have been subdued. this is unlikely, but the thought of this reality is too much for me to take sitting down.

but then again there in the flip side of the coin whereas police will not intervene when things go awry out of fear of public disembowelment.

I would like to elaborate more, but I have other things to do, good day sir, kifflom


Again your use of sarcasm (and lack of rational thought) is noted, but I'd like to respond anyway.

You needn't be a cop to judge the validity of use of force, but surely it would be reasonable to expect you to at least have some level of expertise in this area?

You might also want to have all of the data available before rendering a decision.

No one I'm aware of is suggesting that Police have, or should have, free rein to do whatever they desire. That's your straw man, you deal with it however you choose.
“Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge.”
Charles Darwin
Last edited by Arby911 at Mar 2, 2015,
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