#1
Hi guys!

So, I just ordered from a local amp/cab maker an unloaded 1x12 cab. It's going to be a ported, closed back cab by default, but the back panel (or at least 1/3 of it) will be removable, so best of both worlds .

Now I just need a speaker to put in it.
I'm going to use it with my Palmer FAB5, a 5 Watt bluesy-tweedy amp.

I've been looking at Eminence and Celestion speakers (these can be found in my country easily), but I just can't make up my mind. I'm leaning towards the G12M Greenback 25W speaker (a real classic), that's what the guy making the cab recommended too.

But maybe you guys have some other recommendations/thoughts/experience. The only limitation is that it has to be a 8 Ohm speaker.

So, what do you think? Which speaker would you choose?
Fender MIA Stratocaster (with SD Twang Banger)
Epiphone Les Paul Special II
Johnson Acoustic
Palmer FAB5
#2
are you trying to accentuate the tweediness of it?
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Quote by K33nbl4d3
I'll have to put the Classic T models on my to-try list. Shame the finish options there are Anachronism Gold, Nuclear Waste and Aged Clown, because in principle the plaintop is right up my alley.

Quote by K33nbl4d3
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#4
Depends - what kinda sound do you wanna get from it and how much money do you wanna spend?
Name's Luca.

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Clue: amplifiers amplify so don't turn it on if you need quiet.
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#5
Quote by Dave_Mc
are you trying to accentuate the tweediness of it?

Well, not exactly. I want a bit more low end, maybe tiny bit less middle. Overall I just want a sound, that's not so boxy compared to the built in speaker. A more 3D, open and balanced sound.
That's all I want .

I know it's hard recommending something if I'm not 100% sure what I really want, but unfortunately that's the case. Well, worst case scenario, if I don't like a certain speaker, I can still change it later .
Fender MIA Stratocaster (with SD Twang Banger)
Epiphone Les Paul Special II
Johnson Acoustic
Palmer FAB5
#6
Quote by Spambot_2
Depends - what kinda sound do you wanna get from it and how much money do you wanna spend?

I don't really want to spend a lot of money, so no Alnico Blue Bulldogs and such. 100-120 € max.
Fender MIA Stratocaster (with SD Twang Banger)
Epiphone Les Paul Special II
Johnson Acoustic
Palmer FAB5
#7
Less mids & more bass - maybe a Celestion T75?
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#8
Quote by Offworld92
Less mids & more bass - maybe a Celestion T75?

I was thinking the same thing.
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#9
So I just spoke with the man building the cab, and he said that he tries to acquire some different speakers (Greenbacks, Creambacks, T75,...), so we can try them all out and so I don't have to buy anything until I can hear them in person.
But nevertheless, I appreciate your inputs on what speakers to look into.
Fender MIA Stratocaster (with SD Twang Banger)
Epiphone Les Paul Special II
Johnson Acoustic
Palmer FAB5
#10
T75's and creamback's will not give you a hell of a vintage tone if ya ask me.

I'd ask the guy to get you a jensen P12R to try out.
Or a 12" tornado.
Name's Luca.

Quote by OliOsbourne
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Quote by Cajundaddy
Clue: amplifiers amplify so don't turn it on if you need quiet.
Quote by chrismendiola
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#11
yeah if you can try a bunch of speakers first that'd be better. let us know what you decide (or if you have any more questions)
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Quote by K33nbl4d3
I'll have to put the Classic T models on my to-try list. Shame the finish options there are Anachronism Gold, Nuclear Waste and Aged Clown, because in principle the plaintop is right up my alley.

Quote by K33nbl4d3
Presumably because the CCF (Combined Corksniffing Forces) of MLP and Gibson forums would rise up against them, plunging the land into war.

Quote by T00DEEPBLUE
Et tu, br00tz?
#12
Quote by Dave_Mc
yeah if you can try a bunch of speakers first that'd be better. let us know what you decide (or if you have any more questions)

Yeah, as they say, the proof of the pudding is in the eating .

Quote by Spambot_2
T75's and creamback's will not give you a hell of a vintage tone if ya ask me.

I'd ask the guy to get you a jensen P12R to try out.
Or a 12" tornado.

Well, I'm not really looking for a modern type of tone. But I don't really know what would count as a modern tone in the blues-rock genre. I think I'd prefer a vintage kind of sound.
The tones I'm aiming for (as far as the amp's base tone lets me) is those John Mayer/Joe Bonamassa type tones. So not really heavy, gainy sounds, but which lets the guitar's original sound through.
I'm definietly gonna take that Jensen P12R into account, if I can get my hands on one.
Fender MIA Stratocaster (with SD Twang Banger)
Epiphone Les Paul Special II
Johnson Acoustic
Palmer FAB5
#13
Quote by hansolo1106
The tones I'm aiming for (as far as the amp's base tone lets me) is those John Mayer/Joe Bonamassa type tones. So not really heavy, gainy sounds, but which lets the guitar's original sound through.
Uh, get an eminence RWB.

Not really vintage tones if ya ask me, though to each their own.

An RWB would be good, ditch the alnico jensen's for these tones, they're too bright.
Name's Luca.

Quote by OliOsbourne
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Quote by Cajundaddy
Clue: amplifiers amplify so don't turn it on if you need quiet.
Quote by chrismendiola
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#14
Webber or G12H30. Honestly I put a Jensen P12N into a Fender Princeton Reverb II amp and I thought it sounded pretty ugly. Maybe a poor combination but I sold the speaker shortly cause I couldn't stand it. Lots of upper-mid whine and cone cry when pushed. A C12N was better but the G12H30 was the best for this amp.
"Your sound is in your hands as much as anything. It's the way you pick, and the way you hold the guitar, more than it is the amp or the guitar you use." -- Stevie Ray Vaughan

"Anybody can play. The note is only 20 percent. The attitude of the motherfucker who plays it is 80 percent." -- Miles Davis

Guthrie on tone: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zmohdG9lLqY
#15
^^ i wonder if a rwb might be too dark for mayer. then again, i was using it with a darkish amp so it might be ok.

are the alnico jensens really bright? i know the ceramics are (well, the ones i've tried) but i always (probably wrongly) guessed the alnicos would be a bit warmer.
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Quote by K33nbl4d3
I'll have to put the Classic T models on my to-try list. Shame the finish options there are Anachronism Gold, Nuclear Waste and Aged Clown, because in principle the plaintop is right up my alley.

Quote by K33nbl4d3
Presumably because the CCF (Combined Corksniffing Forces) of MLP and Gibson forums would rise up against them, plunging the land into war.

Quote by T00DEEPBLUE
Et tu, br00tz?
#16
Quote by Dave_Mc
^^ i wonder if a rwb might be too dark for mayer. then again, i was using it with a darkish amp so it might be ok.

are the alnico jensens really bright? i know the ceramics are (well, the ones i've tried) but i always (probably wrongly) guessed the alnicos would be a bit warmer.


The one I had was reasonably smooth on the bottom but really peaky in the upper mids and trying to get smooth controlled feedback wasn't happening. It was either nothing or howled like a fire alarm. Nasty.
"Your sound is in your hands as much as anything. It's the way you pick, and the way you hold the guitar, more than it is the amp or the guitar you use." -- Stevie Ray Vaughan

"Anybody can play. The note is only 20 percent. The attitude of the motherfucker who plays it is 80 percent." -- Miles Davis

Guthrie on tone: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zmohdG9lLqY
#17
thanks
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Quote by K33nbl4d3
I'll have to put the Classic T models on my to-try list. Shame the finish options there are Anachronism Gold, Nuclear Waste and Aged Clown, because in principle the plaintop is right up my alley.

Quote by K33nbl4d3
Presumably because the CCF (Combined Corksniffing Forces) of MLP and Gibson forums would rise up against them, plunging the land into war.

Quote by T00DEEPBLUE
Et tu, br00tz?
#18
Quote by Dave_Mc
are the alnico jensens really bright? i know the ceramics are (well, the ones i've tried) but i always (probably wrongly) guessed the alnicos would be a bit warmer.
still pretty damn bright, I wouldn't pair one with an amp that was any more than slightly bright, better if pretty dark.

They can work good with moderately bright amps but turn into a fizzy mess as soon as you start applying some distortion.
Name's Luca.

Quote by OliOsbourne
I don't know anything about this topic, but I just clicked on this thread because of your username :O
Quote by Cajundaddy
Clue: amplifiers amplify so don't turn it on if you need quiet.
Quote by chrismendiola
I guess spambots are now capable of reading minds.
#19
thanks

only alnicos i really have any experience with are the red fangs, and they're pretty dark.
I'm an idiot and I accidentally clicked the "Remove all subscriptions" button. If it seems like I'm ignoring you, I'm not, I'm just no longer subscribed to the thread. If you quote me or do the @user thing at me, hopefully it'll notify me through my notifications and I'll get back to you.
Quote by K33nbl4d3
I'll have to put the Classic T models on my to-try list. Shame the finish options there are Anachronism Gold, Nuclear Waste and Aged Clown, because in principle the plaintop is right up my alley.

Quote by K33nbl4d3
Presumably because the CCF (Combined Corksniffing Forces) of MLP and Gibson forums would rise up against them, plunging the land into war.

Quote by T00DEEPBLUE
Et tu, br00tz?
#20
So, the cab is done.
Unfortunately the builder couldn't get his hands on any decent speakers, so he just put an old german speaker in it for the time being.
It sounds soo much better than the stock 1x10, none of that boxiness, the bass missing is cured, and it just sounds more lively, 3 dimensional.
Unfortunately the speaker only sounds good clean, when there's distortion, it just sounds absolutely trebly. To be honest, it sounds like crap. But the cleans are nice, so at least I've got that going for me, which is nice .

Soo, I still must decide on a speaker to buy.
After hours of watching youtube videos, the last contenders are 3 celestions: Vintage 30, G12M Greenback, G12H30. These are the ones I could find a lot of videos about.
Unfortunately, I can only find a 16 Ohm version of the G12H30 in my country. Because I'd use it with a 5W amp, I don't think it would be wise to make the sound quieter. Although I don't know how much volume the actual difference between 8 and 16 Ohms is.

But I still can't decide. It sounds to me that the V30 may got too much mids, opposed to the greenback, which sounds scooped in comparison. But there's something in both of them which I like. Should've gotten a 2x12 cab...
Sooo, help me choose
Fender MIA Stratocaster (with SD Twang Banger)
Epiphone Les Paul Special II
Johnson Acoustic
Palmer FAB5
#21
Well, unfortunately it's always better to choose a speaker first and build a tuned cab based on the speakers characteristics. Not the other way around. Figure out what cab tuning you have (internal volume, res frequency) and find a speaker with the best match to your cab.
"Your sound is in your hands as much as anything. It's the way you pick, and the way you hold the guitar, more than it is the amp or the guitar you use." -- Stevie Ray Vaughan

"Anybody can play. The note is only 20 percent. The attitude of the motherfucker who plays it is 80 percent." -- Miles Davis

Guthrie on tone: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zmohdG9lLqY
#22
^ I'd agree if we weren't talking about guitar cabs, which are generally built with little physics in mind.

TS, among these I'd go for the G12H30 or the greenback, and I'd still rather get a RWB.

It's your preference really, it's not like we can tell you what's best for you.

And disregard youtube videos for getting anything more than an idea about guitar gear - there are too much variables affecting the sound.
Different cab, different amp, different p/ups...
Name's Luca.

Quote by OliOsbourne
I don't know anything about this topic, but I just clicked on this thread because of your username :O
Quote by Cajundaddy
Clue: amplifiers amplify so don't turn it on if you need quiet.
Quote by chrismendiola
I guess spambots are now capable of reading minds.
#23
Cab tuning is all about that bottom octave below 160hz. Tight bass, loose bass, flabby bass, or no bass are all functions of cab tuning. If the bottom doesn't matter to you, roll off your guitar at 180hz and use any cab you wish.
"Your sound is in your hands as much as anything. It's the way you pick, and the way you hold the guitar, more than it is the amp or the guitar you use." -- Stevie Ray Vaughan

"Anybody can play. The note is only 20 percent. The attitude of the motherfucker who plays it is 80 percent." -- Miles Davis

Guthrie on tone: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zmohdG9lLqY
#24
Quote by Cajundaddy
Well, unfortunately it's always better to choose a speaker first and build a tuned cab based on the speakers characteristics. Not the other way around. Figure out what cab tuning you have (internal volume, res frequency) and find a speaker with the best match to your cab.

Well, I don't really know what the cab's tuning is. It can either be open back, or closed, because of the removable back panel. I'm still trying to decide which I like better

Quote by Spambot_2
^ I'd agree if we weren't talking about guitar cabs, which are generally built with little physics in mind.

TS, among these I'd go for the G12H30 or the greenback, and I'd still rather get a RWB.

It's your preference really, it's not like we can tell you what's best for you.

And disregard youtube videos for getting anything more than an idea about guitar gear - there are too much variables affecting the sound.
Different cab, different amp, different p/ups...

The thing with the RWB is, it's 120 W. Wouldn't it be overkill for a 5W amp? I'm not going for speaker breakup of course, but can a 5W amp drive a 120W speaker well? Or it really doesn't matter?
Fender MIA Stratocaster (with SD Twang Banger)
Epiphone Les Paul Special II
Johnson Acoustic
Palmer FAB5
#25
Quote by hansolo1106
Should've gotten a 2x12 cab...


Not for a five-watt amp, you shouldn't have.
#26
Quote by hansolo1106
Well, I don't really know what the cab's tuning is. It can either be open back, or closed, because of the removable back panel. I'm still trying to decide which I like better


Essentially, there is no cabinet "tuning" going on, and the ports are pretty much as useless as teats on a boar hog in this application. They're just random holes.

Quote by hansolo1106
The thing with the RWB is, it's 120 W. Wouldn't it be overkill for a 5W amp? I'm not going for speaker breakup of course, but can a 5W amp drive a 120W speaker well? Or it really doesn't matter?


You don't understand what "wattage" ratings on a speaker are about. They're simply an expression of the ability of the speaker's voice coil to dissipate heat.

The efficiency or sensitivity rating of a particular speaker will tell you more about what you'll get out of the speaker for a given wattage in. Most are expressed as dB measured (usually measured at a particular frequency within the speaker's range of frequencies) at 1M with 1W of input. So, for example, a Vintage 30 will usually be rated as producing about 100 dB at 1M/1W (Look for "Sensitivity" here: http://celestion.com/product/1/vintage_30/ )

If you're going to compare two speakers with differing sensitivities (and particularly if you're using a low power amp such as a 5W), you should know that each 3 dB difference in sensitivity is equivalent to gaining or losing half your amplifier's power. Compared to a 100 dB sensitivity speaker, a 97 dB sensitivity is like running your amp at 2.5W, and a 94 dB sensitivity (cheap speaker like a Celestion Rocket 50) is like running it at 1.25W amplifier).

What you need to know about bass: a speaker needs to move FOUR TIMES as much air to produce the same volume for a note one octave down. If, for example, your speaker's sensitivity is 100 dB rated at 1000Hz, it will produce that 100 dB (measured at 1M) with just 1W of power. An octave lower note would be 500Hz, and you would need to move four times as much air. Another octave down would be 250Hz, and now you need to move sixteen times as much air. Obviously, you need more power to do that.

For what it's worth, your low E string's frequency is about 82Hz, and to reproduce that note (compared to the 1000Hz note), you're looking at needing to move about 100 times as much air (and requiring, obviously, a LOT more power) in order to produce the same volume (100 dB) as you do with the 1000Hz note. A guitar mostly works within the 80-1000Hz range (that 1000Hz note is about the 24th fret on a high E string).

This requirement to have a lot of power available to produce low notes will tell you something about why it may be tough to get the bass you want at any reasonable volume with a 5W amp, regardless of the wattage of the speaker you're using.
#27
Quote by Cajundaddy
Cab tuning is all about that bottom octave below 160hz.
But there's close to no tuning in whatever guitar cab, so that's the reason why I'm saying it doesn't really matter.
Quote by dspellman
Not for a five-watt amp, you shouldn't have.
Why?
Name's Luca.

Quote by OliOsbourne
I don't know anything about this topic, but I just clicked on this thread because of your username :O
Quote by Cajundaddy
Clue: amplifiers amplify so don't turn it on if you need quiet.
Quote by chrismendiola
I guess spambots are now capable of reading minds.
#28
Quote by dspellman
Essentially, there is no cabinet "tuning" going on, and the ports are pretty much as useless as teats on a boar hog in this application. They're just random holes.



You don't understand what "wattage" ratings on a speaker are about. They're simply an expression of the ability of the speaker's voice coil to dissipate heat.

The efficiency or sensitivity rating of a particular speaker will tell you more about what you'll get out of the speaker for a given wattage in. Most are expressed as dB measured (usually measured at a particular frequency within the speaker's range of frequencies) at 1M with 1W of input. So, for example, a Vintage 30 will usually be rated as producing about 100 dB at 1M/1W (Look for "Sensitivity" here: http://celestion.com/product/1/vintage_30/ )

If you're going to compare two speakers with differing sensitivities (and particularly if you're using a low power amp such as a 5W), you should know that each 3 dB difference in sensitivity is equivalent to gaining or losing half your amplifier's power. Compared to a 100 dB sensitivity speaker, a 97 dB sensitivity is like running your amp at 2.5W, and a 94 dB sensitivity (cheap speaker like a Celestion Rocket 50) is like running it at 1.25W amplifier).

What you need to know about bass: a speaker needs to move FOUR TIMES as much air to produce the same volume for a note one octave down. If, for example, your speaker's sensitivity is 100 dB rated at 1000Hz, it will produce that 100 dB (measured at 1M) with just 1W of power. An octave lower note would be 500Hz, and you would need to move four times as much air. Another octave down would be 250Hz, and now you need to move sixteen times as much air. Obviously, you need more power to do that.

For what it's worth, your low E string's frequency is about 82Hz, and to reproduce that note (compared to the 1000Hz note), you're looking at needing to move about 100 times as much air (and requiring, obviously, a LOT more power) in order to produce the same volume (100 dB) as you do with the 1000Hz note. A guitar mostly works within the 80-1000Hz range (that 1000Hz note is about the 24th fret on a high E string).

This requirement to have a lot of power available to produce low notes will tell you something about why it may be tough to get the bass you want at any reasonable volume with a 5W amp, regardless of the wattage of the speaker you're using.

I see. Thanks for clearing that up.
To be honest, even with this shitty speaker I've got enough bass for my needs. It seems, all I needed is a 12" speaker. Now the final step would be to tune this sound a bit, by choosing the right speaker, which behaves well even when the guitar tone is distorted. I think any decent speaker will satisfy this need, only maybe the EQ would be the difference between the different speakers.
So after this old speaker, I guess whichever speaker I'll buy, I'll be happy with the sound. At least until I get bored with my whole setup
Fender MIA Stratocaster (with SD Twang Banger)
Epiphone Les Paul Special II
Johnson Acoustic
Palmer FAB5
#29
Quote by Spambot_2
But there's close to no tuning in whatever guitar cab, so that's the reason why I'm saying it doesn't really matter.
Why?


Well, gotta disagree again. Whether intentional or accidental, every speaker cab has a natural resonant frequency (tune) and speaker dampening characteristic that affects the lowest octave or two. Guitar cabs, bass cabs, car speaker doors all have em. It's a physics thing. Even the leather couch I am sitting on has a natural resonant frequency (tune) that can be called up or manipulated to change its acoustic signature. The trick is designing a cab that enhances the characteristics of the speaker you intend to use.

In this case the TS has a cab of unknown dimensions and dampening but it can be open or closed back. Essentially two possible tuning options. Open back generally raises the resonant frequency and reduces speaker dampening resulting in less deep bass, potentially more overall sound (allowing more cone movement), and less control over speaker cone movement (looser sounding bottom). Closed back will offer a tighter sounding bass but too small a cab will choke cone movement and impact both deep bass and overall loudness. That is why some 4x12 cabs sound very different than others. A well designed cab hits the sweet spot in the speakers design and enhances their best attributes.

Larger boxes generally sound bigger and tuned ports allow a smaller box to sound like a larger one. Many great guitar cabs were built with limited understanding of the physics but got lucky and simply sounded great. Others like the Mesa Thiele 1x12 sounded great through careful design.

As guitarists, most of us don't care what happens below 82hz but we care a lot about the characteristics between 100hz and 300hz. This is the realm of guitar cab design and tuning.
"Your sound is in your hands as much as anything. It's the way you pick, and the way you hold the guitar, more than it is the amp or the guitar you use." -- Stevie Ray Vaughan

"Anybody can play. The note is only 20 percent. The attitude of the motherfucker who plays it is 80 percent." -- Miles Davis

Guthrie on tone: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zmohdG9lLqY
Last edited by Cajundaddy at Mar 31, 2015,