#1
Hey all;

It's been a while since I've done this, and last I did it, I didn't have the tools I have now.

I have someone coming who is a singer/songwriter in the country genre who wants something organic, so I want to track him singing and playing at the same time.

I don't know how much he moves around yet, so that's kinda my wild card.

My room itself is pretty decent.

A few tools I have are:
Rode K2 - yes, it does figure 8
Avantone CR-14 ribbon (on order...) - I ordered this with this session in mind.
Studio projects C4 - matched pair with hyper-cardiod capsules
Sennheiser MD441 - very tight cardiod pattern

I also have some mics that will do omni (k2, omni capsules on the C4's, Behringer ECM8000's....), but I'm not sure I want to go that route just yet.

A couple things I have in mind are:
K2 in figure 8 on guitar with the null rejecting the voice
CR-14 on voice with null rejecting guitar.
* these of course, could be switched
one C4 in hyper-cardiod on guitar for stereo spread

OR

Both C4's on guitar in hypercardiod mode on guitar
MD441 on vocal

The SM7 could be a contender for the vocal mic too.

Any other thoughts/suggestions/experiences?

Thanks!
CT
Could I get some more talent in the monitors, please?

I know it sounds crazy, but try to learn to inhale your voice. www.thebelcantotechnique.com

Chris is the king of relating music things to other objects in real life.
Last edited by axemanchris at Mar 27, 2015,
#2
Most organic thing I can think of is to put the C4's in an ORTF pattern at 1-2 meters from him.

That's likely not what your guy has in mind though so on top of the patched pair you may put the K2 very close to him with a pop filter in cardio mode for vocals and the CR-14 near the 12th fret, slightly pointed towards the soundhole.

If you like complicated stuff you could also place the CR-14 right in front of the guitar and the 441 pointing towards the soundhole but not on the perpendicular (to the guitar's top/front layer) line coming out of it.
Put a pop filter in front of that as well.

If the SM7 ends up sounding better than the K2 on vocals than use the K2 instead of the CR-14, as I wouldn't really use a ribbon mic for recording guitar in that situation.
Name's Luca.

Quote by OliOsbourne
I don't know anything about this topic, but I just clicked on this thread because of your username :O
Quote by Cajundaddy
Clue: amplifiers amplify so don't turn it on if you need quiet.
Quote by chrismendiola
I guess spambots are now capable of reading minds.
#3
Good thought abut using the C4's as room mics in stereo along with the others for support... or vice-versa...

May well be worth a try. Nice to have options, even if you don't use all the tracks.

Thanks!

CT
Could I get some more talent in the monitors, please?

I know it sounds crazy, but try to learn to inhale your voice. www.thebelcantotechnique.com

Chris is the king of relating music things to other objects in real life.
#4
I'd suggest getting a safety direct track from the guitar anyway if he has a preamp or acoustic pickup. You could blast it back in the studio and record for ambience if needed or you can get some pick attack and percussive sounds if the other mics tend to be a tad dull...mixed to taste, of course.

Another thing to try would be acoustic screens on the mics, like a little patch of foam the size of windscreen on the bottom of the vocal mic killing bleed.

Might risk it and do 2 mics on the guitar and capture fret and body, so soundhole and around 12th fret but that might give too much bleed on the vocal mic.

It really depends how good the guy is, if he is good one stereo pair away from him would do the whole trick.

So a mix of all if you have enough tracks

This might help a bit:
http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/1996_articles/dec96/singingguitars.html
#6
Quote by diabolical


As soon as I saw the title of this thread, I thought about this article.

I've tried this technique, and have had pretty good results. I'd definitely give it a shot.

You could also try an angled XY if you'd rather not use a Blumlein. Not quite as effective, but still pretty alright.
#7
Quote by diabolical
I'd suggest getting a safety direct track from the guitar anyway if he has a preamp or acoustic pickup. You could blast it back in the studio and record for ambience if needed or you can get some pick attack and percussive sounds if the other mics tend to be a tad dull...mixed to taste, of course.


As much as I wouldn't anticipate using a direct out on an acoustic guitar as a "keeper" at all, I'm an even more firm believer in "you never know...and if it sucks, you certainly don't have to use it.":-)

Quote by diabolical
Another thing to try would be acoustic screens on the mics, like a little patch of foam the size of windscreen on the bottom of the vocal mic killing bleed.


I'll confess to not using physical separation techniques as much as I could.

That said, would a gobo the size of a teacup saucer really make any measurable difference at all? Wouldn't that be a distraction and be in the way?

Quote by diabolical
Might risk it and do 2 mics on the guitar and capture fret and body, so soundhole and around 12th fret but that might give too much bleed on the vocal mic.


I'm thinking about this. The hyper cardioid capsules of the C4's or the MD441 would, with careful placement, offer considerable rejection.

Quote by diabolical
It really depends how good the guy is, if he is good one stereo pair away from him would do the whole trick.


Agreed entirely, and that is the variable.

So a mix of all if you have enough tracks

Quote by diabolical


Good article! There was a very similar one in Recording Magazine.

Thanks!
CT
Could I get some more talent in the monitors, please?

I know it sounds crazy, but try to learn to inhale your voice. www.thebelcantotechnique.com

Chris is the king of relating music things to other objects in real life.
#8
Quote by chaosmoon


You could also try an angled XY if you'd rather not use a Blumlein. Not quite as effective, but still pretty alright.


Never until now having two figure-8 mics, I've never tried the Blumlein pair. If for nothing else, even just for academic purposes, I want to try this now.

A little curious about the effectiveness of this technique using a ribbon and a condenser - two fairly dissimilar mics.

CT
Could I get some more talent in the monitors, please?

I know it sounds crazy, but try to learn to inhale your voice. www.thebelcantotechnique.com

Chris is the king of relating music things to other objects in real life.
#9
Quote by diabolical


Hmmm...interesting and very simple.

Something to think about there too.

Thanks all!

CT
Could I get some more talent in the monitors, please?

I know it sounds crazy, but try to learn to inhale your voice. www.thebelcantotechnique.com

Chris is the king of relating music things to other objects in real life.
#11
Well, just doing some rudimentary playing around today...

Didn't really have great luck with using both mics in figure-8 mode.

Best two-mic result so far was to use the K2 in cardiod mode for the vocal, and use the Avantone in figure 8 mode rejecting the vocal in the null. Then copied and pasted the guitar track so I could process and pan them separately.

Anything else gave me a vocal too far away from the mic that it was noticeable, or gave me phasing between the mics, which couldn't be gotten rid of even with manually time-aligning.

I'll try a few more things over the course of the week.

CT
Could I get some more talent in the monitors, please?

I know it sounds crazy, but try to learn to inhale your voice. www.thebelcantotechnique.com

Chris is the king of relating music things to other objects in real life.