#1
Hey, I'm not exactly a new player, and I tend to practice on more difficult stuff, but there seem to stuff that I CAN'T GET RIGHT NO MATTER HOW MANY WEEKS I WOULD F'ING REPEAT THE SAME PHRASE.

There are several examples I could make, I sweep OK-yish though I can't say I get all of it exactly like it should be, but I now try to use economy picking right and it just doesn't go smoothly, especially with descending scales (upstrokes) and the 3 thinner strings. I'll give you an example of something I just fiddle with when I sit with my guitar, but it doesn't seem to really get anywhere no matter how long I've been messing with it: Far Beyond the Sun. There are several similar parts in it, but let's say you look at the first example - the parts where it goes (don't mind the wrong timing)

D#||--13-14-13-------------------------------------------------|--------||
A#||--------------15-14-12-------------------------------------|--------||
F#||--------------------------14-13-11-10---------------------|--------||
C#||------------------------------------------12-11-9-----------|--------||
G#||----------------------------------------------------12-11-9-|--8----||
D#||---------------------------------------------------------------|--------||

As I said, I try to play it using economy picking (which I assume Yngwie uses, but either way should be the most efficient), but I can't get it right.

How would you practice on such stuff?

Thanks in advance.
#2
with extreme difficulty

i'd just alternate pick that. i assumed yng did too but
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#3
agree with dave double picking which yngwie does quite a bit of. that phrase you showed requires some thought on what fingers to fret the notes with in order to position yourself for each part. if you aren't used to using your pinky then that could be part of your problem. yngwie plays very precisely and fluidly. believe me not everyone can get his licks down and sound as good as he does (tried for years).
#4
As I do it I alternate the run.

But I take the little groups of notes and practise them each with a metronome then put it together.

The most important thing as pointed out is the fluid hands Yngwie has and how to get there so what I did as I am also playing that Yngwie thing a lot was to develop the technique along with the tab of that song and a metronome to get it right.

I used the Speed Mechanics book by Troy Stetina and worked really hard on getting my left hand which is first up to to speed and then my right hand.

After some time it started come along and sounding pretty good.
#5
I'd play it fast!

Seriously, I'd play it like this...if I was Yngwie...

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#6
But you start with a pull of 14 to 13 to 12 on the high e with your 4th then 3rd then first lefthand finger with a down stroke and then alternate the rest as it is straight run with nothing else.

That tab that is posted here is just not sounding right to my ears and I do play it differently and fast if I want to.
Last edited by anders.jorgense at Mar 28, 2015,
#7
I use economy picking for pretty much everything, so that's how I would play it. If you're having trouble playing it, start slow and then gradually try to play it faster.
#8
Well, that IS economy picking and how I try to play it (sans the legatos as I usually try to pick it all just for the sake of it), it just doesn't get right no matter how many times I practice it. And I use my pinky wherever I can.

andres.jorgense: That's how it's played, he doesn't do a chromatic descending line on the high E. It's played in Eb tuning, of course.

EDIT: Not completely related, but HOW AWESOME IS THAT? Just went through some "solo competition" videos, and I've seen a bunch of them are using hybrid picking half of the time... heh. Anyway, this one got such great melodic lines:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gd1Y9-J6T38
Last edited by TLGuitar at Mar 29, 2015,
#9
This video was pretty uninteresting really. Something about the overall send of it was very annoying. I think it maybe has something to do with the dynamic and tonal monotony of the electric guitar played in that kind of pseudo-prog rock sort of shred. Like if it was played on a good analog monosynth it might be cool. Honestly even a very aggressive pick attack instead of all that goofy legato and soft stuff would have helped, and maybe with a wah pedal or more pinch harmonics or something to vary the sound.

The phrasing itself was also very boring. It was melodic, sure, but the melodis were bland and completely forgettable. When I think of like Scarified, Grey Pianos Flying, For the Love of God, Nottingham Lace, Marrakesh Market, etc... those are guitar shred pieces with melodies that stick the first time.

The same could be said with melodic compositions from other genres. Nobody is gonna forget Lonesome Fiddle Blues, Giant Steps, Autumn Leaves, Ode to Joy, Arkansas Traveller, Orange Blossom Special, Night in Tunisia, Rhapsody in Blue, etc.

The melodies in that video... I feel like I could listen to any of them 20 times and not remember anything. And there's really not much point in a melody if nobody remembers it.

That's really the problem with the kids these days. You get these guys that have chops to spare but no real melodic sensibility. Bottom line: if you can listen tosomeone a couple of times and take away something, then it's something special. Otherwise it's just more in and endless sea of repetition.
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#10
Well then we learned from 2 different TAB notations but your ears tell you it does not sound right so where is the fault?

Your mechanics in speed and picking?

Or not the right notes?

Or not the right sound?

I learned it from the studio version from the 1984 first album and I got the tab book for that one.
#11
Quote by anders.jorgense
Well then we learned from 2 different TAB notations but your ears tell you it does not sound right so where is the fault?

Your mechanics in speed and picking?

Or not the right notes?

Or not the right sound?

I learned it from the studio version from the 1984 first album and I got the tab book for that one.


You can most definitely hear he's doing a 13-14-13 phrase and not a descending chromatic one, so I don't know who was in charge of the tab you learnt it from. But I meant that, whether the tab is right or wrong, I can't get such a part smoothly - no matter what technique have I tried and for however long. I mentioned that I seem to have particular issues with doing the up-sweeping of the economy picking on the 3 thinner strings.

Quote by theogonia777
This video was pretty uninteresting really. Something about the overall send of it was very annoying. I think it maybe has something to do with the dynamic and tonal monotony of the electric guitar played in that kind of pseudo-prog rock sort of shred. Like if it was played on a good analog monosynth it might be cool. Honestly even a very aggressive pick attack instead of all that goofy legato and soft stuff would have helped, and maybe with a wah pedal or more pinch harmonics or something to vary the sound.

The phrasing itself was also very boring. It was melodic, sure, but the melodis were bland and completely forgettable. When I think of like Scarified, Grey Pianos Flying, For the Love of God, Nottingham Lace, Marrakesh Market, etc... those are guitar shred pieces with melodies that stick the first time.

The same could be said with melodic compositions from other genres. Nobody is gonna forget Lonesome Fiddle Blues, Giant Steps, Autumn Leaves, Ode to Joy, Arkansas Traveller, Orange Blossom Special, Night in Tunisia, Rhapsody in Blue, etc.

The melodies in that video... I feel like I could listen to any of them 20 times and not remember anything. And there's really not much point in a melody if nobody remembers it.

That's really the problem with the kids these days. You get these guys that have chops to spare but no real melodic sensibility. Bottom line: if you can listen tosomeone a couple of times and take away something, then it's something special. Otherwise it's just more in and endless sea of repetition.


That’s just like, your opinion, woman.
#12
I used to have the same problem. Like I would try to shred and stuff and even though I was playing decently fast, it just wouldn't sound right. The problem in my case was that my timing was totally off, so I tried to play it slow with a metronome, and then eventually it started to sound better. Try that and see if it works.
#13
Quote by theogonia777
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Theogonia, I respect you but you're not actually contributing anything of use, and I've seen you doing it a lot recently. Please try to stay on topic.

Quote by anders.jorgense
Well then we learned from 2 different TAB notations but your ears tell you it does not sound right so where is the fault?

Your mechanics in speed and picking?

Or not the right notes?

Or not the right sound?

I learned it from the studio version from the 1984 first album and I got the tab book for that one.

Tab books aren't necessarily any more reliable than any other source, it's still just being transcribed by some person somewhere. My ears also tell me that it's a 13-14-13 thing, and given that this is Yngwie Malmsteen I reckon that's infinitely more likely than to have a random note outside of what is otherwise a straight-up harmonic minor run.

Quote by TLGuitar
You can most definitely hear he's doing a 13-14-13 phrase and not a descending chromatic one, so I don't know who was in charge of the tab you learnt it from. But I meant that, whether the tab is right or wrong, I can't get such a part smoothly - no matter what technique have I tried and for however long. I mentioned that I seem to have particular issues with doing the up-sweeping of the economy picking on the 3 thinner strings.

Ok, so we have some clue as to where you're going wrong, the real question is why? Us telling you how to play it is no good unless you know why you're going wrong in the first place. It's clear to me that there's something wrong with what you're doing on a more fundamental level than just what technique you're choosing to use or how you're fingering the run.

So I say: ask yourself what are you not doing right. That will help infinitely more than we can without seeing you play. If you're really stuck then come back with a video of yourself playing the run slow and then as fast as you can get it so we might be able to see what you're doing wrong.
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#14
Quote by coolbeans777
I used to have the same problem. Like I would try to shred and stuff and even though I was playing decently fast, it just wouldn't sound right. The problem in my case was that my timing was totally off, so I tried to play it slow with a metronome, and then eventually it started to sound better. Try that and see if it works.


I'm not sure it's that. The whole movement of my picking hand feels unnatural to me on such stuff, at least when trying economy picking, and even when doing it pretty slow I feel like I need to resist from making a wrong or inaccurate movement. I mean, when you look at someone who does it smoothly you can see they barely pay attention to "stabilizing" their hand over the string. They just rake it through and the muscle memory does the rest. I don't get that no matter how slowly and how many times I pass over such stuff again and again. It's not that I don't nail it at times, but it's random enough that you can say that my hands still "don't get it". When you want to play something good, you want to be able to recreate the correct performance at all times, and not just hope you'll "get it this time".
Last edited by TLGuitar at Mar 29, 2015,
#15
Quote by TLGuitar
I'm not sure it's that. The whole movement of my picking hand feels unnatural to me on such stuff, at least when trying economy picking, and even when doing it pretty slow I feel like I need to resist from making a wrong or inaccurate movement. I mean, when you look at someone who does it smoothly you can see they barely pay attention to "stabilizing" their hand over the string. They just rake it through and the muscle memory does the rest. I don't get that no matter how slowly and how many times I pass over such stuff again and again. It's not that I don't nail it at times, but it's random enough that you can say that my hands still "don't get it". When you want to play something good, you want to be able to recreate the correct performance at all times, and not just hope you'll "get it this time".


Oh, I think I know what you're talking about. Do you mean that like when you try to economy pick, your right hand lags and just doesn't coordinate with your left hand? That happened to me when I first tried to use economy picking. What I did though was try to use economy picking for literally everything, and now it feels pretty natural. Sometimes I catch myself using alternate picking if I'm playing something kind of weird or unusual, but for the most part I just use economy picking without really thinking about it.

So if your timing's not off and you're just playing it kind of sloppy because you're not used to economy picking, you have two options: either practice economy picking more, or try to use alternate picking instead. I would just practice economy picking more because, in my opinion, it's more versatile: I mean you can use economy picking for pretty much everything if you get good at it. Even sweep picking is in a way just a special case of economy picking.

But as others have said, you really should post either an audio clip or a video of you playing that run slowly and another one of you playing it fast. That's the only way we can truly figure out why it doesn't sound right.
#16
Quote by TLGuitar
I'm not sure it's that. The whole movement of my picking hand feels unnatural to me on such stuff, at least when trying economy picking, and even when doing it pretty slow I feel like I need to resist from making a wrong or inaccurate movement. I mean, when you look at someone who does it smoothly you can see they barely pay attention to "stabilizing" their hand over the string. They just rake it through and the muscle memory does the rest. I don't get that no matter how slowly and how many times I pass over such stuff again and again. It's not that I don't nail it at times, but it's random enough that you can say that my hands still "don't get it". When you want to play something good, you want to be able to recreate the correct performance at all times, and not just hope you'll "get it this time".

Well of course it doesn't feel natural, you've not been doing it for very long! You're also comparing your practice time to other people's playing time, of course it looks easy for them because it is, if it wasn't they wouldn't be doing it, and they certainly wouldn't be doing it if they had to think about it.

I think the problem is that you're expecting too much too quickly, this is hard stuff you're trying to do so don't be so hard on yourself, you need more time and practice. Concentrate on doing it right and don't worry about it feeling unnatural: nothing about playing guitar is at all natural, it all just ends up feeling natural with enough time.

Quote by coolbeans777
But as others have said, you really should post either an audio clip or a video of you playing that run slowly and another one of you playing it fast. That's the only way we can truly figure out why it doesn't sound right.

Not audio, it's no good for looking at someone's technique. All it tells you is that there is something wrong, not why it's wrong.
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#17
also, I can give you some tips for learning economy picking. Like I said before, try to use economy picking for everything. Also, the hardest part about economy picking is jumping from one string to the next one. When doing this, there are two possibilities: either the jump is going to be a sweep (see ex. 1) or it's going to be like ex. 2. Since the transition in ex. 1 is different than the one in ex.2, you should practice those string transitions separately, i.e. try to do exercises where every time you go from one string to another, the pick direction of the first note on the next string is the same as the last one on the previous string (as in ex. 1), and ones where every time you go from one string to another, the pick direction of the first note on the next string is different than the last one on the previous string (as in ex. 2).

ex. 1


     d u  d     d u  d     d  u  d     d  u d      d  u   d        d   u  d
e------------------------------------------------------------------10-12-13-----------------------
B--------------------------------------------------10-12-13---------------------------------------
G--------------------------------------9-10-12-----------------------------------------------------
D--------------------------9-10-12-----------------------------------------------------------------
A---------------8-10-12----------------------------------------------------------------------------
E----8-10-12---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


ex. 2


        d u  d  u        d  u d  u       d  u  d  u       d  u  d  u       d  u  d  u       d   u  d  u 
e-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------13-10-12-13
B-------------------------------------------------------------------------13-10-12-13-----------------
G---------------------------------------------------------12-9-10-12----------------------------------
D-----------------------------------------12-9-10-12--------------------------------------
A------------------------12-8-10-12-----------------------------------------------------------
E-------12-8-10-12----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Last edited by coolbeans777 at Mar 29, 2015,
#18
Well, actually, that's the point. I obviously thought "Well, it's a technique you should be able to utilize with everything and the best thing is just to transform your way of playing into economy", so I am trying to play whatever I practice or just fiddle the guitar with using economy picking, and I might be doing it a couple of months or so (not to mention that I've been trying to get my sweep picking right since maybe my first year of playing 5 years ago, and it didn't get tremendously well), so it's not like I've been attempting it just since last week. It just doesn't get very good. I think my neurotransmitter sucks or something. I'll also add that in regard to sweep picking more specifically, where you usually need to make quite the long stretches - especially with the pinky, my pinky's movement is not completely independent. I know some can do it and some can't, but when I curl my pinky it also induces some movement in the ring finger, and it's quite annoying. It both reduces the accuracy of the movement and induces more strain to those fingers as the tendon isn't limber enough or something in that vein.
Last edited by TLGuitar at Mar 29, 2015,
#19
Quote by TLGuitar
Well, actually, that's the point. I obviously thought "Well, it's a technique you should be able to utilize with everything and the best thing is just to transform your way of playing into economy", so I am trying to play whatever I practice or just fiddle the guitar with using economy picking, and I might be doing it a couple of months or so (not to mention that I've been trying to get my sweep picking right since maybe my first year of playing 5 years ago, and it didn't get tremendously well), so it's not like I've been attempting it just since last week. It just doesn't get very good. I think my neurotransmitter sucks or something. I'll also add that in regard to sweep picking more specifically, where you usually need to make quite the long stretches - especially with the pinky, my pinky's movement is not completely independent. I know some can do it and some can't, but when I curl my pinky it also induces some movement in the ring finger, and it's quite annoying. It both reduces the accuracy of the movement and induces more strain to those fingers as the tendon isn't limber enough or something in that vein.


When you practice economy picking, do you play slow? Because if you're trying to economy pick fast without having first practiced it slow, then it's just not going to work. Start slow, and practice until you can do it almost perfectly, and then try to do it a little faster.

In regards to sweep picking, I'm pretty sure anyone can achieve finger independence, it's just a matter of practice. However, there's obviously a limit to how far apart you can stretch your fingers. So if the reason you can't do those stretches when sweep picking is because you're physically unable to, then you could compensate by tapping those high notes instead of using hammer-ons and pull-offs. It sounds pretty much the same if you do it right (and it's fun!) But if it's just because you haven't gained the necessary level of finger independence, then you just gotta practice.
#20
People might flame me for this, but economy picking used to feel incredibly awkward to me. To remedy it, I just made myself run scales up and down neck in all positions and gradually increased speed and smoothness. It's super fast now and feels more natural than any other technique I've ever tried. I see people hating on scale practice like that, but it worked for me and I was able to use the technique in other areas comfortably.

Trust me when I say it most definitely felt awkward at first, and went from the most awkward thing I ever felt to the most natural in a couple months at most.
#21
Quote by coolbeans777
When you practice economy picking, do you play slow? Because if you're trying to economy pick fast without having first practiced it slow, then it's just not going to work. Start slow, and practice until you can do it almost perfectly, and then try to do it a little faster.

In regards to sweep picking, I'm pretty sure anyone can achieve finger independence, it's just a matter of practice. However, there's obviously a limit to how far apart you can stretch your fingers. So if the reason you can't do those stretches when sweep picking is because you're physically unable to, then you could compensate by tapping those high notes instead of using hammer-ons and pull-offs. It sounds pretty much the same if you do it right (and it's fun!) But if it's just because you haven't gained the necessary level of finger independence, then you just gotta practice.


I'm not talking about how far I can stretch my fingers apart. I can't curl/bend down my pinky without the ring finger starting to bend as well.

Quote by jlowe22
People might flame me for this, but economy picking used to feel incredibly awkward to me. To remedy it, I just made myself run scales up and down neck in all positions and gradually increased speed and smoothness. It's super fast now and feels more natural than any other technique I've ever tried. I see people hating on scale practice like that, but it worked for me and I was able to use the technique in other areas comfortably.

Trust me when I say it most definitely felt awkward at first, and went from the most awkward thing I ever felt to the most natural in a couple months at most.


It should work, but as I said, I probably try to use economy picking for about a couple of months and it really didn't get all too great.

BTW, once again regarding YouTube stuff I just stumbled upon... I think I've reached the weird part of YouTube:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Y5Cn-9DIx8

WTF?
Last edited by TLGuitar at Mar 30, 2015,
#22
Quote by TLGuitar
I'm not talking about how far I can stretch my fingers apart. I can't curl/bend down my pinky without the ring finger starting to bend as well.


It should work, but as I said, I probably try to use economy picking for about a couple of months and it really didn't get all too great.

BTW, once again regarding YouTube stuff I just stumbled upon... I think I've reached the weird part of YouTube:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Y5Cn-9DIx8

WTF?


don't take what I said about a couple months to heart. It took that for me but everybody is different, and it could take you a year or more. Also, I practiced at least 4 hours a day on average during that time period. Not necessarily practicing only one thing, but the point is I squeeze a lot of practice in short lengths of time, or try to.
#23
It takes what it takes for every player and I put the time in getting my left and right hand in sync and up to speed using Speed Mechanics book by Troy Stetina and a metronome.

I focused on making it a habit so I stuck with it and now like all habits it feels natural to do.

I also noticed that I do use one technique that I have applied with out thinking about it as I just play that Yngwie run. Or anything else for that matter. Picking is not something I care to worry about. If I can't pick something I learn.

When playing 3 notes pr string patterns going to the next string up or below what picking stroke do you lead with? Down?

Getting into SM as mentioned I got to the lead with up stroke ex and boy did it take a while to impliment and make a habit (that is always the goal) but sure it is pretty natural after some months and as for the Yngwie run yes that started to come along as well.

Paul Gilbert in Intense Rock I do the same kind of lick and 3 note pr string patterns leading with the up and down picking which allows you to play at higher tempo easier.

Troy is more in dept from the starting point to the max.
Last edited by anders.jorgense at Mar 30, 2015,