#1
So I've recently got a new guitar - the Ibanez RG927WZCZ-NTF 7 string. Today I finally decided to put on new strings and set the intonation properly. The axe has a measure of 648mm or 25,5 inches, I'm using gauge 10 strings with standard tuning. What I'm having now is this: Especially on the lowest 4 strings I've basically moved the saddles as far away from the neck as possible and the note played on the 12th fret is still up to 20ct higher than the harmonic. Even the high e-string is pretty far away from the neck.

I've set up the intonation on my other guitar 2 years ago and though it took a while, it's near to perfect. It too has a measure of 25,5 inches but is set on Eb tuning with gauge 11 strings. String tension is quite similar and so is string height. Everything else including the neck is set up properly, the way I can tell. I don't know what I might have missed or whether there is anything else that somehow affects the intonation. Any ideas?

Edit:

I added some pictures of both of my guitars' bridges to give you an idea. The second one is the problem-guitar.




Ibanez S570DXQM-BBB
DiMarzio Evolution HSH
Ibanez RG927WBBZ-TGF
DiMarzio Evolution 7 & DiMarzio LiquiFire 7
Peavey Valve King 112, Peavey Vypyr 15
Harley Benton NG-100, Ibanez Weeping Demon

Quote by metalmingee
In fact, wanting different tunings is one of the best reasons to convince others that you need more guitars.
Last edited by Dragonfyre137 at Mar 28, 2015,
#2
This typically means that the bridge was installed in the incorrect place on the guitar. Its quite a common problem, unfortunately.

How high is the action on the guitar? The higher the action, the more you need to move the saddles back to get the 12th fret to intonate.

If the action is fine, then the next best thing is to experiment with different string gauges. Lighter gauges don't require the saddles to be too far back to intonate. But 10's are kinda light so i don't think you're going to be able to move the saddles forward very much.

Assuming the bridge is also level, and the guitar still cannot intonate, then unfortunately there isn't a whole lot else I know of that can help your situation. I'd return the guitar and get a replacement.
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#3
Quote by T00DEEPBLUE
This typically means that the bridge was installed in the incorrect place on the guitar. Its quite a common problem, unfortunately.


I hope not :/ it's a Premium and it cost me 999 €.

How high is the action on the guitar? The higher the action, the more you need to move the saddles back to get the 12th fret to intonate.


It's exactly 5 mm from the fretboard to the string at the 12th fret. My other guitar has it at 4,5 mm, so it's not that a big difference.

If the action is fine, then the next best thing is to experiment with different string gauges. Lighter gauges don't require the saddles to be too far back to intonate. But 10's are kinda light so i don't think you're going to be able to move the saddles forward very much.

Assuming the bridge is also level, and the guitar still cannot intonate, then unfortunately there isn't a whole lot else I know of that can help your situation. I'd return the guitar and get a replacement.


Ouch. That really hurts :/ The bridge is actually quite leveld. But out of curiosity, in what manner would it affect the intonation?
Ibanez S570DXQM-BBB
DiMarzio Evolution HSH
Ibanez RG927WBBZ-TGF
DiMarzio Evolution 7 & DiMarzio LiquiFire 7
Peavey Valve King 112, Peavey Vypyr 15
Harley Benton NG-100, Ibanez Weeping Demon

Quote by metalmingee
In fact, wanting different tunings is one of the best reasons to convince others that you need more guitars.
#4
5mm?! From where? the 12th fret?

That action is stupidly high. The action should be under 2mm at the 12th fret 6th string assuming that the frets are level and the neck relief is set correctly. And about 1.3mm at the 1st string.

If you actually have set the action at the 12th fret so high, no wonder you cannot intonate the bridge.

That kind of setup really implies that you don't know what you're doing. To that I'll say this; learn what is an acceptable setup for a guitar of your type. And something that's very important to know, is to NEVER adjust the action of the guitar under full string tension. You'll wreck the knife edges on the bridge. So if you're going to do anything, never do that.
Quote by Dragonfyre137

Ouch. That really hurts :/ The bridge is actually quite leveld. But out of curiosity, in what manner would it affect the intonation?

Well, when the bridge falls forwards or backwards, the strings effectively move forwards and backwards with it, which affects the intonation. You can observe this yourself. This is why adjusting the intonation is the last thing you do when doing a setup. The previous parts of the setup determine the position that the saddles need to be in.
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I also have to do that. Cottaging this weekend
Last edited by T00DEEPBLUE at Mar 28, 2015,
#5
Measring at the 12th fret pf the lightes string, it's now exactly 3,5 mm from the fretboard itself to the string. Measuring from the fret, it's 2,5 mm to the string. It won't go any lower from that point and I do have some fretbuz.
Ibanez S570DXQM-BBB
DiMarzio Evolution HSH
Ibanez RG927WBBZ-TGF
DiMarzio Evolution 7 & DiMarzio LiquiFire 7
Peavey Valve King 112, Peavey Vypyr 15
Harley Benton NG-100, Ibanez Weeping Demon

Quote by metalmingee
In fact, wanting different tunings is one of the best reasons to convince others that you need more guitars.
#6
In what areas do you get fret buzz? Do you get fret buzz from the first 8 frets or so and it goes away thereafter? Or do particular notes buzz, but not the frets around it?

Also make sure you're measuring the action from the fretwire to the string. Measuring from the fretboard itself to the string is meaningless information because different guitars have different fretwire sizes, which affect that measurement significantly.
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I also have to do that. Cottaging this weekend
Last edited by T00DEEPBLUE at Mar 28, 2015,
#7
I mostly get fretbuzz at the lowest frets of the wound strings, especially the low-e and low-b strings when plaing powerchords. But this might just be my playstyle. Little update though: I managed to set the intonation quite well. The plain strings are perfect, the wound a and d are too, the low e is quite good. The low b is still like 5 cents too high when playing the 12th fret. I checked some other frets and it's still well intonated up to the 9th fret. Do you think this might a matter of neck relief?
Ibanez S570DXQM-BBB
DiMarzio Evolution HSH
Ibanez RG927WBBZ-TGF
DiMarzio Evolution 7 & DiMarzio LiquiFire 7
Peavey Valve King 112, Peavey Vypyr 15
Harley Benton NG-100, Ibanez Weeping Demon

Quote by metalmingee
In fact, wanting different tunings is one of the best reasons to convince others that you need more guitars.
#8
Yes, the neck relief is probably set wrong. Having fret buzz on the first half dozen frets indicates that the truss rod needs to be loosened.

There are plenty of online guides on how to set neck relief, and every guitar player has a certain preference, but generally having 0.5mm at the 7th fret is acceptable.

Measuring neck relief is something you should already know how to do, but in case you don't, then fret the 6th string at the 17th fret with your right hand, and the 1st fret of the same string with your left hand. The gap between the 6th string and 7th fret will then determine the amount of relief the neck has. If there is no gap at all, and the string is touching the fret, then you need to loosen the truss rod until you get adequate relief.
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I also have to do that. Cottaging this weekend
#9
Thanks! I'll do it right tomorrow and I any questions arise I'll ask here.

Again, thanks for your help and patience
Ibanez S570DXQM-BBB
DiMarzio Evolution HSH
Ibanez RG927WBBZ-TGF
DiMarzio Evolution 7 & DiMarzio LiquiFire 7
Peavey Valve King 112, Peavey Vypyr 15
Harley Benton NG-100, Ibanez Weeping Demon

Quote by metalmingee
In fact, wanting different tunings is one of the best reasons to convince others that you need more guitars.
#10
Well I have a problem as well, and that is on most strings, difference between 12th fret and 12th fret harmonic doesn't change no matter how much I move the saddles, the bridge looks level to me, not sure about the truss rod but the neck seems relatively flat, the strings are old though, Ernie Ball power slinky (Aka gauge 11), I grabbed my tuner and no matter how much move the saddles and retune, the difference either moves a very small distance, or not at all, no matter where I move the saddles.

Oh and it's an Ltd. F-10 , I know it's probably not that good a guitar, but it's my first.
#11
So, another update for me: Action is now 2,5 mm. Any lower will give conciderable fretbuzz. Intonation is set for 5 of 7 strings, still running out of place for the low e and low b. I have a difference of about 10 cents.
Ibanez S570DXQM-BBB
DiMarzio Evolution HSH
Ibanez RG927WBBZ-TGF
DiMarzio Evolution 7 & DiMarzio LiquiFire 7
Peavey Valve King 112, Peavey Vypyr 15
Harley Benton NG-100, Ibanez Weeping Demon

Quote by metalmingee
In fact, wanting different tunings is one of the best reasons to convince others that you need more guitars.
#12
2.5mm at the 12th fret is still not ideal. It should go lower than that if the guitar is set up correctly and the frets are all level.

If you're still having intonation issues at this point, then consider how hard you're hitting each string. The harder you hit each string, the sharper it'll sound. But if you're still picking the strings not particularly hard, the saddles are as far back as they can possibly go, and the guitar still cannot intonate, I'd send the guitar back.
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Quote by H4T3BR33D3R
I also have to do that. Cottaging this weekend
#13
I'm a little bit confused, to be honest. Let me clarify: I'm not pressing down any frets and measuring form the top of the 12th fret to the bottom of each string. It's exactly 2,5 mm. When pressing down the 1st and 15th fret it's about 0,5 mm by the eye. I usually hit the strings pretty hard, but for checking intonation I pressed them pretty ligtly and hit them with less force.
Ibanez S570DXQM-BBB
DiMarzio Evolution HSH
Ibanez RG927WBBZ-TGF
DiMarzio Evolution 7 & DiMarzio LiquiFire 7
Peavey Valve King 112, Peavey Vypyr 15
Harley Benton NG-100, Ibanez Weeping Demon

Quote by metalmingee
In fact, wanting different tunings is one of the best reasons to convince others that you need more guitars.
#14
The way you're measuring the action is correct then. From the top of the crown of the fret to the bottom of the string. The way you're measuring neck relief is correct too if you're measuring the relief at the 7th fret.

You should be hitting each string as hard as you do regularly as you're intonating. But if you are hitting each string hard in general, then it will cause your guitar to go sharp, and you will need to have higher action than most people. Some people learn to hit the strings less hard for these reasons.

The problem with online forums is that when trying to diagnose problems like this, its difficult to know what is truly causing the issue unless the people who are trying to help you actually have the guitar in their hands. But if you still cannot intonate the bridge given the measures you've done to try to help it and when picking the 12th fret softly, then that does suggest that the guitar's bridge was installed just a little bit too far forwards at the factory.
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I also have to do that. Cottaging this weekend
Last edited by T00DEEPBLUE at Mar 29, 2015,
#15
As I said, I have already set my Ibanez S570 two years ago. It's near to perfect. Intonation is sweet and the attack is about 2,5 mm too. Same measure (648 mm), same string tension but on different tuning (Eb) and different gauge (11). Practically the same set-up, so I don't understand how it could not work on the RG927. You're probably right. Logic says it has to be the guitar, as I have been experimenting with neck relief and tremolo height for the past days and I have not even come close to solving the problem. It hurts to hear that, but I'll probably return it... thanks for the help though.
Ibanez S570DXQM-BBB
DiMarzio Evolution HSH
Ibanez RG927WBBZ-TGF
DiMarzio Evolution 7 & DiMarzio LiquiFire 7
Peavey Valve King 112, Peavey Vypyr 15
Harley Benton NG-100, Ibanez Weeping Demon

Quote by metalmingee
In fact, wanting different tunings is one of the best reasons to convince others that you need more guitars.
Last edited by Dragonfyre137 at Mar 29, 2015,
#16
Yeah just because both guitars are Ibanez doesn't mean that they're created equal. Generalisations about how well a brand puts a certain line of guitars together can sometimes be made, but only up to a certain extent when you're talking about specific examples of one model against another.
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I also have to do that. Cottaging this weekend
Last edited by T00DEEPBLUE at Mar 29, 2015,
#17
Yeah, I guess so. But what surprises me most is that my S570 is just a regular S-series, bought for 629 € and the RG is a Premium-line for 999 €. I would have expected some issues like that from a much cheaper guitar, heck, actually I'd even be surprised if a 200 € guitar had similar issues.
Ibanez S570DXQM-BBB
DiMarzio Evolution HSH
Ibanez RG927WBBZ-TGF
DiMarzio Evolution 7 & DiMarzio LiquiFire 7
Peavey Valve King 112, Peavey Vypyr 15
Harley Benton NG-100, Ibanez Weeping Demon

Quote by metalmingee
In fact, wanting different tunings is one of the best reasons to convince others that you need more guitars.