#1
Ok Ive been playing guitar for a while. I dont know many scales but i would like to leanr how to solo all over my neck and recognise scale patterns.

In your opinion.

Which scales Should I learn first and in what order?

Any tips in memorising and learning how to solo all over the neck?
#2
I'd learn pentatonic and the different shapes that go with it. Major and minor scales as well are a good place to start. To "solo all over the neck" you'd need to know relevant keys so learning the circle of fifths is a good starting point and looking up relevant keys will help as well
Gear
Schecter Synyster Gates Custom-S
Fender American Deluxe Stratocaster
Ibanez RG370DXL w/SD Invaders and a hot rail
Tanglewood acoustic
Marshall JVM410H
+a lot of pedals!
#3
I would learn the major scale all over the neck and not only the pattern but also all its scale degrees, then i would learn all the accidentals. Then i would just start improvising music, taken for granted that you know about chord construction. Which then would allow to make music without having to guess where a chord lies.

Then to dive deeper into musical styles and technique i would mimic my favorite musicians and try to play their solos or at least phrases note by note. and analyze whats going on harmonically underneath these phrases.
Last edited by Ignore at Apr 8, 2015,
#4
^ I would start with learning your favorite solos/melodies - that way scales aren't just "safe notes" and you'll understand how to use the notes, not just how to play the scale shapes up and down. First music, then theory and not the other way around. Knowing it in practice makes it easier to understand in theory.
Quote by AlanHB
Just remember that there are no boring scales, just boring players.

Gear

Bach Stradivarius 37G
Charvel So Cal
Fender Dimension Bass
Hartke HyDrive 210c
Ibanez BL70
Laney VC30
Tokai TB48
Yamaha FG720S-12
Yamaha P115
#5
Quote by ebmusicman16
I'd learn pentatonic and the different shapes that go with it. Major and minor scales as well are a good place to start. To "solo all over the neck" you'd need to know relevant keys so learning the circle of fifths is a good starting point and looking up relevant keys will help as well



The circle of fifths!!! Sounds like a secret society!

What are they

I know minor and blue pent, major minor scales I know those.
#6
Quote by mikerockcity
The circle of fifths!!! Sounds like a secret society!

What are they

I know minor and blue pent, major minor scales I know those.

Circle of fifths is just a way to memorize all key signatures.



When you add a sharp, you move a perfect fifth up, and you move the circle clockwise. When you add a flat, you move a perfect fifth down, and you move the circle counterclockwise. So the major key with one sharp is G major (a fifth higher than C) and the major key with one flat is F major (a fifth lower than C). If you want to add another sharp, you just need to move a fifth up again. A fifth up from G is D. So the major key with two sharps is D major.

What's the key with 5 sharps? You just move five fifths up from C. G D A E B. It is B major.

What's the key signature of Eb major? Now you need to move down because it has flats in it. F Bb Eb. It's three fifths lower than C so Eb major has three flats.

The order of sharps and flats also goes in fifths. The first sharp is F#. When you add a sharp, you move a fifth up. So the second sharp is C#. When you add a flat, you move a fifth down. F# is the first sharp and B is a fifth lower, so Bb is the first flat. To add more flats, you need to move a fifth down. Eb is a fifth lower than Bb, so it is the next flat.


Relative keys have the same key signature. C major and A minor have the same notes. The circle of fifths works for minor keys too. You just start from A minor and move a fifth up to add a sharp and a fifth down to add a flat. So the minor key with one sharp is E minor (E is a fifth higher than A), and the minor key with one flat is D minor (D is a fifth lower than A).

If you know the major key and want to know what the relative minor is, you just take the 6th note of the major scale, and that's the root of the relative minor key. And if you want to know the relative major of a minor key, you take the 3rd note of the minor scale, and that's the root of the relative major key.

What's the minor key with 4 sharps? You need to move four (perfect) fifths up from A minor to know the answer. E B F# C#. So the minor key with 4 sharps is C# minor.

What is the relative minor of G major? The root of the relative minor is the 6th note of the major scale. G major is G A B C D E F#, and the 6th note of the scale is E. So the relative minor of G major is E minor.

What is the relative major of F minor? The root of the relative major is the 3rd note of the minor scale. F minor is F G Ab Bb C Db Eb, and the third note of the scale is Ab. So the relative major of F minor is Ab major.


I hope this cleared it up.

TL;DR Just look at the picture. It shows all key signatures and how many flats and sharps they have.


Oh, and about "relevant" keys - well, I think the most relevant keys for guitar are E, A, D, G (both minor and major) and B minor. C major and minor and F# minor are pretty common as well. Keys like Ab major, F minor and Eb major are not that common for guitar. But if you play jazz, they are very common. They are good keys for the brass section, and you rarely see keys with a lot of sharps in music with brass instruments. It's best to learn to play in every key, but as I said, E, A, D and G minor and major and B minor must be the most common keys in guitar music, same with C major.
Quote by AlanHB
Just remember that there are no boring scales, just boring players.

Gear

Bach Stradivarius 37G
Charvel So Cal
Fender Dimension Bass
Hartke HyDrive 210c
Ibanez BL70
Laney VC30
Tokai TB48
Yamaha FG720S-12
Yamaha P115
Last edited by MaggaraMarine at Apr 9, 2015,
#7
What does the relative major or minor have to do with what Im playing , if im ripping a solo?
#8
Quote by mikerockcity
...i would like to learn how to solo all over my neck...?
I believe in some quarters the correct term is pearl necklace?
Har Har Har Har Har (steerpike_84) lol
(sorry I couldn't help it, at first request I'll delete it)
#9
Quote by mikerockcity
Ok Ive been playing guitar for a while. I dont know many scales but i would like to leanr how to solo all over my neck and recognise scale patterns.

In your opinion.

Which scales Should I learn first and in what order?

Any tips in memorising and learning how to solo all over the neck?


Start with the Pentatonic. Grab a backing track off somewhere, and then begin to improvise. That's what I have my students do when I first start teaching them. They send in recorded homework assignments. Recording yourself, is a great way to hear what your phrasing is like.

As for tips, look at what's all out there, and choose something that works for you. But whatever you do, have fun doing it.

Best,

Sean
#10
Quote by mikerockcity
What does the relative major or minor have to do with what Im playing , if im ripping a solo?

Well, not necessarily anything, but it helps you see connections between things. A minor and C major scales have the same notes. Does that help you, I don't know. Not all information is useful for everybody. But relative keys are pretty basic stuff.

It may make your scale learning faster. If you know where the C major scale is, you know where the A minor scale is. It is important to remember that even though they have the same notes in them, they are different scales - they sound very different.

But yeah, if you want to understand anything about music theory, relative keys are basic stuff. Many people figure it out on their own - I mean, it's not complicated. They just notice that exactly the same scale patterns work over both major and minor songs. But many people ask why the same notes need to have so many different names. Well, as I said, A minor does sound pretty different from C major.

You may not find theory knowledge that useful (yet). And not all musicians learn theory. But it can make things easier to understand. Theory explains music with words. You can describe sounds without needing to play anything, and I think that's great. Nothing beats a good ear, but good theory knowledge and good ear is the best combination IMO.


Also, you said you want to learn scales. Well, it's pretty useful to know that C major and A minor have the same notes in them.
Quote by AlanHB
Just remember that there are no boring scales, just boring players.

Gear

Bach Stradivarius 37G
Charvel So Cal
Fender Dimension Bass
Hartke HyDrive 210c
Ibanez BL70
Laney VC30
Tokai TB48
Yamaha FG720S-12
Yamaha P115
Last edited by MaggaraMarine at Apr 10, 2015,
#11
Quote by tonibet72
I believe in some quarters the correct term is pearl necklace?
Har Har Har Har Har (steerpike_84) lol
(sorry I couldn't help it, at first request I'll delete it)



Zinger!!!!
#12
Start with what you like! Major, minor, harmonic minor, pentatonic major/minor? Listen to each one and decide what sounds the best to you; in the end you should know them all anyway.

Back when I was starting, everyone was advising me to start with the pentatonic scale as well. Thing is, I don't even like the sound of the pentatonic scales to begin with! Soon I discovered the natural and harmonic minor scales, which sounded much better to me, and I started learning those.

Sure, pentatonic minor is probably the easiest to sound decent with, but if you aren't into its bluesy sound, you won't have much fun with it at all. The "emotional" notes of the regular minor are omitted.
Last edited by Elintasokas at Apr 11, 2015,
#13
I tak all your advice and Im going to learn and pay attention to scales more.

I just play I dont know much theory as a kid I remember my teacher who was really good teaching me scales and triads and I was just like dude teach me Enter Sandman.

When should I play a minor or major?

If the song starts with a G major chord that means I have to solo in G major?

If the song progression starts in G then goes to A- B I have to switch scales or I continue in G the whole time?
#14
^ Learn about keys. A song that starts with G major is not necessarily in G major. Yes, the first chord in the progression is usually the key, but there are also a lot of songs that don't start with the tonic chord.

Use the key scale if all chords fit the key signature.

How to know what key you are in? You need to use your ears. Which of the chords feels like home? That's your key. If you can't figure it out that way, just look at the chord tones. For example if your chord progression was C-Am-Dm7-G7, you could just build a scale using the chord tones. C E G, A C E, D F A C, G B D F - when we combine them, we get C D E F G A B which is C major. You can also just listen to the progression. If you end it with G7, doesn't it feel a bit incomplete? If you play C major in the end, it should feel complete. C major is your key.

C major scale will also work over all of the chords, because they all fit the key signature of C major (no sharps or flats).

If you have a more "complex" progression and use non-diatonic chords, then you want to find the key and figure out where the other chords come from. Most of the time they are borrowed from the parallel key (if you are in C major, you would borrow chords from C minor or vice versa). Secondary dominants are also really common. But forget about non-diatonic stuff for now. Learn to find the key and learn to play in a key. Start with simple progressions that stay in one key.

I still think the best way is to just learn to play a lot of songs by ear. That way you'll understand the stuff in practice. So don't just practice scales up and down. Figure out what your favorite guitarists do.
Quote by AlanHB
Just remember that there are no boring scales, just boring players.

Gear

Bach Stradivarius 37G
Charvel So Cal
Fender Dimension Bass
Hartke HyDrive 210c
Ibanez BL70
Laney VC30
Tokai TB48
Yamaha FG720S-12
Yamaha P115
Last edited by MaggaraMarine at Apr 20, 2015,
#15
^This.

Until you gain a big understanding on how it all "fits" together, you're better off learning solos and analyzing bits that interest than memorizing a bunch of scales and trying to apply them.
"There are two styles of music. Good music and bad music." -Duke Ellington

"If you really think about it, the guitar is a pointless instrument." - Robert Fripp
#16
Ya i really feel like its a mix of both.

so many scales, relative 5ths and what not... Gotta start somewhere I guess.
#17
When I search online I see for major and minor different positions, why is there different positions?

If im soloing over a chord progression of say C-G-D real easy.. there is 4 different minor or major positions, which one and why should I pick?
#18
Quote by mikerockcity
When I search online I see for major and minor different positions, why is there different positions?

If im soloing over a chord progression of say C-G-D real easy.. there is 4 different minor or major positions, which one and why should I pick?

Because the guitar neck has the same 12 notes repeating in many places. Imagine how many notes there would be total if EACH fret was a unique note?

Pick whichever position is the most practical for the situation and easiest to play, I guess.
#19
Yeah, the position you are playing in doesn't change the sound. There are many ways to play the same note. For example the E note on the 24th fret of the low E string can also be found on the 19th fret of A string, 14th fret of D string, 9th fret of E string, 5th fret of B string and open high E string. That's why there are so many positions.

You learn to play in the different positions by learning a lot of solos.

Don't just learn the fingerings. Pay attention to the sounds.
Quote by AlanHB
Just remember that there are no boring scales, just boring players.

Gear

Bach Stradivarius 37G
Charvel So Cal
Fender Dimension Bass
Hartke HyDrive 210c
Ibanez BL70
Laney VC30
Tokai TB48
Yamaha FG720S-12
Yamaha P115
#20
Quote by mikerockcity
I tak all your advice and Im going to learn and pay attention to scales more.

I just play I dont know much theory as a kid I remember my teacher who was really good teaching me scales and triads and I was just like dude teach me Enter Sandman.

When should I play a minor or major?

If the song starts with a G major chord that means I have to solo in G major?

If the song progression starts in G then goes to A- B I have to switch scales or I continue in G the whole time?


I think a commitment to learning music theory would answer all of these kinds of questions. Because, as you can see you are probably feeling very limited and excluded because of things you do not know/understand, am I correct?

For example, you posted an example of how you might play G, Am to B

Because of music theory I can immediately understand that I can solo over this in a number of ways:

1. I recognized this in seconds as a I ii and III in G
2. I understood instantly that I could play in these chords with G major, but only one decision to make over one of these chords. Do I treat the D note of my scale over the B chord, as a passing tone, or do I modify it to a D#?
3. The answer for me, because of my understanding and application of music theory, is I can play the scale as I like, but, modify one note over the B. No scale switching, just adapting the approach.
4. Furthermore, I could select chord tones from all these chords, and hit them on the chord change. I could choose the 3rds for each chord, as my landing notes as the chords change, and I know these notes would be B, C and D#.

Now as you read this, you might be thinking something like "Wow, I don't even understand most of what he just wrote." That's exactly my point. This is how excluded you are from where you are now, to the understanding that you'd like to have.

If these seem like good skill sets to have, I would agree with you. I hope this helps you realize just how far behind you are, from where you'd like to be. And hopefully, this can inspire you to want to know/learn more and understand these things.

Good luck to you!

Best,

Sean
Last edited by Sean0913 at Apr 21, 2015,
#21
Quote by Sean0913
I think a commitment to learning music theory would answer all of these kinds of questions. Because, as you can see you are probably feeling very limited and excluded because of things you do not know/understand, am I correct?

For example, you posted an example of how you might play G, Am to B

Because of music theory I can immediately understand that I can solo over this in a number of ways:

1. I recognized this in seconds as a I ii and III in G
2. I understood instantly that I could play in these chords with G major, but only one decision to make over one of these chords. Do I treat the D note of my scale over the B chord, as a passing tone, or do I modify it to a D#?
3. The answer for me, because of my understanding and application of music theory, is I can play the scale as I like, but, modify one note over the B. No scale switching, just adapting the approach.
4. Furthermore, I could select chord tones from all these chords, and hit them on the chord change. I could choose the 3rds for each chord, as my landing notes as the chords change, and I know these notes would be B, C and D#.

Now as you read this, you might be thinking something like "Wow, I don't even understand most of what he just wrote." That's exactly my point. This is how excluded you are from where you are now, to the understanding that you'd like to have.

If these seem like good skill sets to have, I would agree with you. I hope this helps you realize just how far behind you are, from where you'd like to be. And hopefully, this can inspire you to want to know/learn more and understand these things.

Good luck to you!

Best,

Sean



Yes I want to learn because I have been playing many years I feel I am nice, with nice aptitudes and what would of been great potential I had practised more and not delved into the Dj and producing world. I want to catch up with time missed and learn my theory so I can as you pointed out solo and no think too much of the scales.

In bands I was always the one dubbed as lead guitarist because of my skills and potential. Even now when I play with my Friday night band Im dubbed lead because im the best of the 3 guitarists by far but for myself I know i can be 1 millions times better if I iknew my scales.

I Also want to start teaching.
#22
Quote by mikerockcity
Yes I want to learn because I have been playing many years I feel I am nice, with nice aptitudes and what would of been great potential I had practised more and not delved into the Dj and producing world. I want to catch up with time missed and learn my theory so I can as you pointed out solo and no think too much of the scales.

In bands I was always the one dubbed as lead guitarist because of my skills and potential. Even now when I play with my Friday night band Im dubbed lead because im the best of the 3 guitarists by far but for myself I know i can be 1 millions times better if I iknew my scales.

I Also want to start teaching.


Have you looked into getting a teacher? Private lessons? Schools?

Best,

Sean
#23
No, I haven't yet. Im thinking about it. Like i said I think im nice I can do certain things but I def want to step up several levels.
#24
2 very important things you can/should do:

1) Sing your scales as you practice them. Doing this will be great work on ear training, after a while you'll be able to pick up other people's solos and you'll be able to play the notes you hear in your head for your own stuff

2) Try the Hopscotch Method.
#25
Quote by arv1971
2 very important things you can/should do:

1) Sing your scales as you practice them. Doing this will be great work on ear training, after a while you'll be able to pick up other people's solos and you'll be able to play the notes you hear in your head for your own stuff

2) Try the Hopscotch Method.



Man my guitar teacher when I was a kid was getting to me to do ear training. I as like F that just teach me something....Now I wish I would of listened lol
#26
Quote by mikerockcity
>>
I know minor and blue pent, major minor scales I know those.<<


Then the next step is to use those scales to create musically interesting licks, motifs, lines and phrases.

That's when the fun starts, right?

One nice way to do this is to rearrange the notes of the scale in different orders.

Instead of playing lines that move in more-or-less stepwise motion, (i.e., 1,2,b3,5, etc.) mix up the intervals. For example: 1, 5, 9, 13, etc.

Experiment with this, and, when you hear something you like, be sure to write it down (tab, notation, etc.) so you don't forget it.

That way, instead of just practicing scales, you are practicing your own ideas and developing your own style.

"No one is a sorcerer every hour of the day. How could you live?" — Pablo Picasso
#27
^This.

Creativity is a skill. It can be trained.
"There are two styles of music. Good music and bad music." -Duke Ellington

"If you really think about it, the guitar is a pointless instrument." - Robert Fripp
#29
^Because they train more intelligently and effectively. And just plain harder.

"When you aren't training someone else is. When you meet them they will win."
"There are two styles of music. Good music and bad music." -Duke Ellington

"If you really think about it, the guitar is a pointless instrument." - Robert Fripp
#30
or people just have a natural affinity for it
it's all just coming back
it's all coming back

it's all coming back to me
#31
Well, yes, true, but a good head start and natural ability will eventually be passed by someone who has been training for years.

Especially if the person with "natural talent" isn't training.
"There are two styles of music. Good music and bad music." -Duke Ellington

"If you really think about it, the guitar is a pointless instrument." - Robert Fripp
#32
^ What Baby Joel said. Some people are innately better at some things than others. You could put two people through the exactly same practice time and most likely one would end up significantly better.

And if someone with natural talent isn't training, well, that's a waste
Last edited by Elintasokas at Apr 24, 2015,
#33
oh no for sure. like you cannot get good without practice, no matter how natural it is to you. But at the same time, no matter how hard I practiced, I doubt I'd ever reach Horowitz class, you know. Like I could get pretty good, maybe even really good, but I don't think I'd be listed as one of history's greatest pianists, the same way Horowitz is
it's all just coming back
it's all coming back

it's all coming back to me
#34
True.

I just hate the excuse of "not the knack for something" as an excuse to not do it. You should be running towards things that are hard, not away.

Maybe not everyone can become a legendary virtuoso, but I think anyone can become a great musician, or a great anything else.

Because the other option would be to say "I have no talent for this" and not try. And that'd be a waste, wouldn't it

Also: I'm shutting up now because this thread is about scales.
"There are two styles of music. Good music and bad music." -Duke Ellington

"If you really think about it, the guitar is a pointless instrument." - Robert Fripp
#35
Quote by Jet Penguin
^Because they train more intelligently and effectively. And just plain harder.



Co-signed.

When I studied with Scott Henderson at G.I.T., Scott used to insist that he possessed no exceptional "innate" talent, and that he simply worked his ass off to achieve his status as a world-renowned jazz/fusion guitarist.

I had a hard time believing it then, and I still do today.
"No one is a sorcerer every hour of the day. How could you live?" — Pablo Picasso
#36
It could be true, I mean everyone will tell you that 30 mins a day is enough practice, but then the virtuosos will tell stories of 12 hour marathon sessions. From personal experience I can tell you that I've averaged 5 to 6 hours a day over the course of several months, and can't imagine it being too much practice. I certainly wouldn't have been better off had I kept it under an hour.

An important variable is whether or not you started as a kid because kids have infinitely more time than adults to practice. A kid starting guitar at age six can put in an insane amount of practice by the time they turn 18. Having no job or girlfriend. It also probably helps to train their developing brains to grow more musical as well.
#37
Quote by Elintasokas
You could put two people through the exactly same practice time and most likely one would end up significantly better.

I don't want to start an argument, but it has a lot to do with how you practice, not just the time you spend practicing. And also, not the same methods work for everybody.

I think most people are pretty much on the same level. Then there are some really talented people who just seem to "get it" (is due to genes or what - I don't know, but there are some people who learn a lot faster than others, and I'm not really talking about a mechanical skill like guitar playing, I'm talking about understanding music, creativity, that kind of stuff). And then there are those who have a learning disability or something. But I think the main point is to find the right method that works for you.

But whatever, a bit off topic.


But yeah, talent should never be used as an excuse for not being able to learn something. It can work the other way around - because somebody's talented (whatever that means), he's able to learn stuff faster than most people.
Quote by AlanHB
Just remember that there are no boring scales, just boring players.

Gear

Bach Stradivarius 37G
Charvel So Cal
Fender Dimension Bass
Hartke HyDrive 210c
Ibanez BL70
Laney VC30
Tokai TB48
Yamaha FG720S-12
Yamaha P115
Last edited by MaggaraMarine at Apr 24, 2015,
#38
Quote by Jet Penguin
True.

I just hate the excuse of "not the knack for something" as an excuse to not do it. You should be running towards things that are hard, not away.

Maybe not everyone can become a legendary virtuoso, but I think anyone can become a great musician, or a great anything else.

Because the other option would be to say "I have no talent for this" and not try. And that'd be a waste, wouldn't it

Also: I'm shutting up now because this thread is about scales.

oh yeah for sure. one of my biggest downfalls with piano was when i got too self-assured and then I dtopped playing and it's been one of my biggest regrets.

And yeah, everyone can become good.


also leaving the thread, just wanted to reaffirm Eli and learn some new things anyway


and btw scales are cool
it's all just coming back
it's all coming back

it's all coming back to me