#1
Hows that work?
What scale is being used (closest I got was G# Dorian?),
but then how does that E note as a root (Emaj7 Chord) fit the picture?

(The other 2 chords aren't really relevant to my question.
I just threw them in to... well I dunno really, just sounded okay?)

The melody still works nicely against just the Emaj7 Chord alone,
with that last F note... resolving nicely as a minor 2nd... I don't get it?

(I can't even Roman Numeral the Chords)

  Lead
e|--4-----|-------|------| 
B|--4-6-4-|-------|------| 
G|--4-----|-6-4-3-|------| 
D|--6-----|-------|-4-3--| 
A|--7-----|-------|------| 
E|--------|-------|------| 
 :        :       :      :
e|--4-----|-------|-4----| 
B|--4-----|-9-----|-4----| 
G|--4-----|-8(6)--|-4----| 
D|--6-----|-9-----|-4----| 
A|--7-----|-8-----|-6----| 
E|--------|-------|-4----|
  Backing
Last edited by tonibet72 at Apr 12, 2015,
#2
Well if you drop the E note from the bass, the chord you get is G# minor and that F note is the major 6th for that chord (dorian) Try playing a G# minor chord instead and you'll just get rid of that minor second (or ninth) dissonance between the E and F. I can't play the tab, because I don't have a guitar atm.
Last edited by Elintasokas at Apr 11, 2015,
#3
It's just a chromatic passing tone. To me the 4 6 4 on the B string in the beginning doesn't sound good, but the 4 3 on the D string works because it's followed by E.

Chromatic passing tones pretty much always work. They are very common.

Edit: Or is it followed by E? Is the second line (with chords) played after the first? If not, do what Elintasokas said. If you remove the E note from the bass, it's a G#m chord and G# dorian will work just fine over a G#m chord.
Quote by AlanHB
Just remember that there are no boring scales, just boring players.

Gear

Bach Stradivarius 37G
Charvel So Cal
Fender Dimension Bass
Hartke HyDrive 210c
Ibanez BL70
Laney VC30
Tokai TB48
Yamaha FG720S-12
Yamaha P115
Last edited by MaggaraMarine at Apr 11, 2015,
#5
Yeah I was kinda fearing the "Dorian", Passing Tone response...

Three things: (with respect of course guys, coz i'm ready to be wrong).
1. Elintasokas: as far as it seems Emaj7 doesn't belong to G# Dorian.

2. Maggara: The final F note I wouldn't call a passing tone because it settles to rest 'with' the Emaj7 Chord (if we disregard the other 2 chords).

3. Maggara: with the 4-6-4 not sounding good... yeah it does (no disrespect intended), I actually got the whole idea from a JetPenguin reply to one of my threads (concerning heavy modulation) so I know (well based on JP's findings) that the voicings/melody works... in theory.

Here's something from the master... Paying special attention @ 0:05
Tell me that doesn't sound a bit off... but I'm sure the Jazz hierarchy would have me hung drawn and quarter at such naivety, of course ... at the risk of imminent death ...just trying to make a point... a little clearer?

Thanks!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kkvLdivRHzs
#6
^ I don't know. The 0:05 doesn't sound off to my ears. It just sounds jazzy. But I didn't like the sound of the 4 6 4 over Emaj7. If you like it, fine. (And it may also have to do with the way you play it - maybe you can make it sound good, I don't know.)

If you end the melody with F, it would suggest a chord change (maybe to C#9). Where does the melody go? That pretty much explains the F.
Quote by AlanHB
Just remember that there are no boring scales, just boring players.

Gear

Bach Stradivarius 37G
Charvel So Cal
Fender Dimension Bass
Hartke HyDrive 210c
Ibanez BL70
Laney VC30
Tokai TB48
Yamaha FG720S-12
Yamaha P115
#7
Since I'v been name-dropped and now dragged in here...

1. It doesn't, but that's not what he meant. We're talking straight CST here, not diatonic-ness.

Right now the best analysis of what you have is they key of B/G#m. That Emaj7 is totally a IV, and the F note is a chromatic tone between 4 and 5.

2. The F is by definition, a passing tone unless you treat it as a chord tone. In both uses you have, it wants to go somewhere.

3. Nothing Tal's playing sounds off to me. But what you have (which is basically a slow trill/upper neighbor tone, let's be real) is slightly weird because the note isn't normally part of that harmony.

By all means, do it, if that's the sound you want, but you also might want to try it with E natural (4 5 4) or by taking out the second D# and harmonizing the F with a new chord.

Same thing with the last low F.

Maybe there's another chord being implied by that single note, giving us Emaj7 - X - Emaj7.....

Food for thought.
"There are two styles of music. Good music and bad music." -Duke Ellington

"If you really think about it, the guitar is a pointless instrument." - Robert Fripp
#8
Phew! thanks for taking my response constructively, can be hard to discuss finer distinctions sometimes, without coming off as if looking for a fight!

Yeah sure E Major sounds a whole lot sweeter than G# Dorian (and maybe it's just me) but if you noodle around those G# Dorian notes (Eb & F) as well as C# & D#... the sound begins to get in your ears (for me it was immediate), and based on the similarity of G#m7 and Emaj7, it just made sound sense to my ears!

It was only when I started looking at it - Emaj7 not belonging to G# Dorian, that it began to pose questions...

At this point I feel I should explain my interpretation of JP's post in my other thread for clarity, so as not to drag him into this unnecessarily: Edit: Sorry Jet, you beat me to it!

You'll recall This Thread:
https://www.ultimate-guitar.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1667811
Note Posts #1 and #5 (Reharm 3. first chord only):
Dmaj7-Bbmaj7 with D# E F#
becomes (for this thread)
Emaj7-whocares with F Gb Ab (Eb being the maj7th in our chord).

So I was like what? and cycling through Jets examples in my other thread with the melody in that thread... well my brain certainly hurt in places!

That's when the M7th, m2nd, M2nd, M3rd slapped me in the face?
So I started noodling with just that much alone and got as far as the G#m7 and saw that G# Dorian seemed to fit the bill, but that then left the Emaj7 at odds BUT based on Jets Reharm, Example 3. well just what is_ going on here then?!!

The more I noodled, the more the sound became solidified (still is) yet theoretically I was bewildered?

Hence this thread!

As for things not sounding right, I have always thought Lydian sounds like what my melody probably sounds like to you, for me the +5 in Lydian just sounded wrong, granted I was intrenched in Major/Aeolian and anything else was just a Passing Note...

Again, hence this thread!

and most of my threads (trying to better understand how to otherwise use them).

Sorry for taking so long to respond... I'm trying to answer as effectively as I can.
and it's 1am so I will leave you with this till mañana...

Cheers again! ZZzzzz
Last edited by tonibet72 at Apr 11, 2015,
#9
sometimes notes just sound well together
will someone carry me across ten thousand miles under the silence
#11
^^^^^ Yeah basically.

All my "advice" is just based on convention and principle. But if it sounds good then it is.
"There are two styles of music. Good music and bad music." -Duke Ellington

"If you really think about it, the guitar is a pointless instrument." - Robert Fripp
#13
Quote by tonibet72
The melody still works nicely against just the Emaj7 Chord alone,
with that last F note... resolving nicely as a minor 2nd... I don't get it?

e|--4-----|-------|------| 
B|--[B]4[/B]-[B]6[/B]-[B]4[/B]-|-------|------|
G|--4-----|-6-4-3-|------|
D|--6-----|-------|-4-[B][color="Red"]3[/COLOR][/B]--|
A|--[B][color="Red"]7[/COLOR][/B]-----|-------|------|
E|--------|-------|------|

e|--[color="Red"]4[/COLOR]-----|-------|-4----|
B|--[color="Red"]4[/COLOR]-----|-9-----|-4----|
G|--[color="Red"]4[/COLOR]-----|-8(6)--|-4----|
D|--[color="Red"]6[/COLOR]-----|-9-----|-4----|
A|--[color="Red"]7[/COLOR]-----|-8-----|-6----|
E|--------|-------|-4----|


Obviously it depends how you play this, but I'm hearing:-

Chords: Emaj7, F half diminished, G#m7

Key: G# minor

The F note doesn't sound out of place, it's diatonic and ends up droning those B/D#/Ab notes with the rest of the chords.

Whoever is playing the lead has decided to use the dorian scale. That's cool, they can do that if they want. It's not out of the ordinary to use a major 6 in a minor key.
And no, Guitar Hero will not help. Even on expert. Really.
Soundcloud
#14
Quote by MaggaraMarine
Edit: Or is it followed by E? Is the second line (with chords) played after the first?
Sorry, I missed this. I should have connected the 2... Fixed. nonetheless.
Quote by AlanHB
Obviously it depends how you play this, but I'm hearing:-
Chords: Emaj7, F half diminished, G#m7 || Key: G# minor
The F note doesn't sound out of place, it's diatonic and ends up droning those notes with the rest of the chords. It's not out of the ordinary to use a major 6 in a minor key.
Thanks Alan, that was basically what I was experiencing (minus the RNA, cheers!)... but it wasn't so much the F note, more the E as a chord root, save the G#m7-Emaj7 relationship... I found these insights (Bold in above Quote) very helpful granted I've been told here countless times (thanks Jet and Maggara).

Thanks everyone!!!
Go on, it's 2 minutes of your time.

Where possible let Chords ring.
1 2 3 1 2 3 1
e|----------------------------|
B|---------------------9------|
G|-------------10h-11------11-|
D|-----9-h-13-----------------|
A|----------------------------|
E|-0--------------------------|

1 2 3 1 2 3 1 2 3 1
e|---------------------------------------|
B|-4-------6-p-4-----------9-p-7-p-6-----|
G|-4-------4-------4-------6-----------6-|
D|-3-------6-----------6---9-------------|
A|---------------------------------------|
E|-0-------0---------------0-------------|

1 2 3 1 2 3 1 2 3 1
e|---------------------------------------|
B|-4---6-p-4---------sl------------------|
G|-4-----------6-p-4-\-3-----------------|
D|-6-----------------------4-p-3------(3)|
A|---------------------------------4-p-2-|
E|-0-------------------------------------|

e|-14---11---13---9---11---7---9--|-------(?)||
B|-0----0----0----0---0----0---6--|------7---||
G|-13---13---11---10--11---8---6--|----10----||
D|--------------------------------|---9------||
A|--------------------------------|--6-------||
E|-0----0----0----0---0----0---0--|-0--------||

Now add the open e(?) string... ughh!!
there's diatonics out the window... again?
Last edited by tonibet72 at Apr 12, 2015,
#15
^actually that poses a question:
Is there such a thing where you have a scale over a pedal (say E note) but apart from that never uses that note again elsewhere (say G# Dorian - see examples from droning spoiler above).
#16
Yes, you can play whatever you want.

Think of theory more as a guide, than a set of rules. Theory may say "if you play x it will sound like y". If you want to make that sound, play x. But if you don't, don't. In the end the question is whether it sounds good to your ears.

Whatever you do play, theory will explain to some degree what is happening. However it will not dictate whether you like the sound or not.
And no, Guitar Hero will not help. Even on expert. Really.
Soundcloud
#17
If music is going to hold you to a set of rules that (in your mind) can't be broken ..your creativity & individuality will be zero. The moment it become more of an impediment than an asset you know you're relying too heavily on it.
#18
Quote by AlanHB
Yes, you can play whatever you want.

Think of theory more as a guide, than a set of rules. Theory may say "if you play x it will sound like y". If you want to make that sound, play x. But if you don't, don't. In the end the question is whether it sounds good to your ears.

Whatever you do play, theory will explain to some degree what is happening. However it will not dictate whether you like the sound or not.


This is probably the most important thing to learn about theory. That and that it gives the necessary nomenclature to better facilitate the communicate ideas.

Also fun fact about the F note. In one of his instructional videos, Danny Gatton claimed that he would tune his guitars by tuning the first fret F note to a dial tone since he claims that all dial tones are an F note. I don't know if dial tones are all set at an F, how accurate they are in terms of pitch if it were true, or if Danny actually did this and wasn't just making it all up.
There's no such thing; there never was. Where I am going you cannot follow me now.
#19
^^^ Thanks!!! Edit: No seriously! they were all helpful replies. Sorry, just thanks sounded a bit weak (looking back at it).
@Miss Kristen, yeah I heard something similar about car horns?... well traditional ones?
Last edited by tonibet72 at Apr 12, 2015,
#20
The elevators at school are in tune Fs. That's all I got.
"There are two styles of music. Good music and bad music." -Duke Ellington

"If you really think about it, the guitar is a pointless instrument." - Robert Fripp
#21
Do you tune your guitar in them?
There's no such thing; there never was. Where I am going you cannot follow me now.
#22
No, I tune to the piano. They have issues.
"There are two styles of music. Good music and bad music." -Duke Ellington

"If you really think about it, the guitar is a pointless instrument." - Robert Fripp
#23
So you tune your guitar to the F note of a piano because the elevator, while being perfectly in tune, has issues?
There's no such thing; there never was. Where I am going you cannot follow me now.
#24
Lol, no. Pronouns.

I mean the piano has issues because they can't just tune on a whim. So you, playing an instrument that can be easily tuned, tune to the piano player.
"There are two styles of music. Good music and bad music." -Duke Ellington

"If you really think about it, the guitar is a pointless instrument." - Robert Fripp
#25
Quote by Jet Penguin
Lol, no. Pronouns.

I mean the piano has issues because they can't just tune on a whim. So you, playing an instrument that can be easily tuned, tune to the piano player.


I would think that the elevator is tuned less easily than the piano, so the piano player should tune to the elevator.
There's no such thing; there never was. Where I am going you cannot follow me now.
#26
Quote by MaggaraMarine
...To me the 4 6 4 on the B string in the beginning doesn't sound good...
Quote by Jet Penguin
The F is by definition, a passing tone unless you treat it as a chord tone. In both uses you have, it wants to go somewhere.

But what you have (which is basically a slow trill/upper neighbor tone, let's be real) is slightly weird because the note isn't normally part of that harmony.

Same thing with the last low F.

...you also might want to try it with E natural...
Hey guys, just out of curiosity, do you still think the F's a little weird/doesn't sound good?
Where possible let Chords ring.
1 2 3 1 2 3 1
e|----------------------------|
B|---------------------9------|
G|-------------10h-11------11-|
D|-----9-h-13-----------------|
A|----------------------------|
E|-0--------------------------|

1 2 3 1 2 3 1 2 3 1
e|---------------------------------------|
B|-4-------6-p-4-----------9-p-7-p-6-----|
G|-4-------4-------4-------6-----------6-|
D|-3-------6-----------6---9-------------|
A|---------------------------------------|
E|-0-------0---------------0-------------|

1 2 3 1 2 3 1 2 3 1
e|---------------------------------------|
B|-4---[color="Red"][B]6[/B][/COLOR]-p-4---------sl------------------|
G|-4-----------6-p-4-\-3-----------------|
D|-6-----------------------4-p-3------(3)|
A|---------------------------------4-p-2-|
E|-0-------------------------------------|

e|-14---11---13---9---11---7---9--|------------(?)||
B|-0----0----0----0---0----0---6--|------7--------||
G|-13---13---11---10--11---8---6--|----10---------||
D|--------------------------------|---9-----------||
A|--------------------------------|--6------------||
E|-0----0----0----0---0----0---0--|-0-------------||
Please P.M me if you decide to answer!
Edit: I tried to P.M but the code wouldn't work
Last edited by tonibet72 at Apr 16, 2015,
#27
I think it sounded just fine over the E pedal point. It's all about the context.
Quote by AlanHB
Just remember that there are no boring scales, just boring players.

Gear

Bach Stradivarius 37G
Charvel So Cal
Fender Dimension Bass
Hartke HyDrive 210c
Ibanez BL70
Laney VC30
Tokai TB48
Yamaha FG720S-12
Yamaha P115
#28
I can dig it.

What's your though process with that little piece? Giving us insight into that can help us give you insight into refining/continuing it.
"There are two styles of music. Good music and bad music." -Duke Ellington

"If you really think about it, the guitar is a pointless instrument." - Robert Fripp
#29
Maggara: Sounds fine over the E pedal point. It's all about the context.
Jet: What's your thought process? Some insight that we may help you refine/continue with it?

hmmm... umm... nup! I got nothing (believe me I've tried - sorry!)... like it's got some kinda weird modal thing going on? It's too ambiguous, Emaj7/F#dim/C#7 slash 9/G#m6 seems almost interchangeable in a lot of places, idk ...Yeah Pedal Point??
NB:(this post was originally 2 meters long, edited and re-written multiple times) Boink!
Last edited by tonibet72 at Apr 17, 2015,