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#1
So, as you can see in my sig, I run a Strat with a crunch lab into a 6505+ combo.

Today, I played a Gibson Les Paul into a 5150 head ran into a Marshall MX 4x12 cab (which I know isn't their best cabinet ) at guitar center while I was on break at work.

What the absolute ****. I did NOT expect such a huge change in tone. I pretty much mirrored the EQ/gain settings I would use at home on my 6505, but this 5150 sounded way tighter. Like... WAY tighter.

So what accounts for this mostly? The key differences, obviously, are the fact that at home I am using a strat into a 1x12, and at guitar center I ran a les paul into a 4x12. Do you figure it was the les paul that gave it the tighter tone, or the 4x12 cabinet? Both?

What can I do to my combo amp to try and achieve this tighter tone? I'm getting the les paul regardless; but do you figure I should try and run my 6505 combo into a 4x12? Will that give me the tone I got at guitar center? Or is the 100w 5150 head just wired different than a 6505 combo? I thought they were the same amp.
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Last edited by BV-95 at Apr 23, 2015,
#2
part of it is the 412. they sound different then combos.

the other big part is the 100 watt 5150 head is different then the 6505+

which 5150 was it? the evh branded one?
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#3
The 4x12 adds a lot more fatness and "wideness" to the tone. Also the 5150 and 6505+ aren't exactly the same amp. The 5150 II and the 6505+ are. The original 5150 circuit is considered a lot less harsh and hardcore sounding but still has balls out gain. Also the LP is mahogany body, the strat is likely alder. There's a lot of differences but overall I'd say the majority of it is the 4x12 and the 5150 head being different.

Also, the sheffeild speaker in the 6505+ combo blows, not that the MX cab's speakers are terribly better.
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#4
I didn't get a good look at it. I don't think it was the EVH one. I think it was the OG 5150. I'll check again tomorrow though; I'm going to bring my strat in to see how much of the tone was actually the les paul.

If I ran my 6505+ combo into a 4x12, would it improve the sound do you think? For both recording and live purposes?
Fender MIM Strat HSS (DiMarzio Crunch Lab)
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If you want, I can mix/master your tracks for free just so I can practice and who knows, maybe you'll love what you hear! Hit me up.
#5
I've heard of people taking the chassis out of the 6505+ combo, putting it in a head shell, and it is effectively a 6505+ 60W head. Would running your combo into a 4x12 help? Yes but I think it would be entirely impractical for you. One major upgrade for the combo you have is putting a V30 or Creamback in it, which would also help a lot. In the end nothing really beats the fullness of a 4x12 though. Still, the Marshall MX cab it not great. I'd look into a used 1960 cab if you really wanted to do the 412 thing. It's entirely unnecessary though, imo.
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#6
Well I just don't want to put a V30 in it and then the V30 not give me the tone I want... one of my co-workers said that 6505s come biased really cold and then I should try biasing it hotter as well.

I wouldn't be getting an MX cab if I went the 4x12 route. I'd get a PPC 412-C from Orange for sure. The only reason I played it through an MX at guitar center is because thats what we had it ran through.
Fender MIM Strat HSS (DiMarzio Crunch Lab)
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If you want, I can mix/master your tracks for free just so I can practice and who knows, maybe you'll love what you hear! Hit me up.
#7
Ya a 412 would definitely sound fatter and fuller.

If it's the original 5150 that should be the same amp.

the evh branded 5150 III is completely different.
Prs se Holcomb is the answer
#8
Sorry, but this sounds like "shit single speaker sounds different to 4 different shit speakers." Comparing one shit speaker to another is a fool's errand. Plug your amp into a decent cab and see what happens.
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#9
and doesn't surprise me at all,,nothing was held constant. Differet guitar, Different amp, different speakers.

Different rig is different.

At least bring your guitar. then try a 6505 combo into a cab.
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#11
Were you running the 5150 at the same volume you run your 6505+ at? Those amps tighten up when they're running hard.
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#13
Quote by trashedlostfdup
and doesn't surprise me at all,,nothing was held constant. Differet guitar, Different amp, different speakers.

Different rig is different.

At least bring your guitar. then try a 6505 combo into a cab.


this is about it in a nut shell. while the 6505+ combo is a good amp it isn't as good as the head version through a 4x12. of course no shock guitar wise. a strat even with a hunbucker won't sound just like a LP just the way it is.
#15
There are a lot of factors at play here.

First off, I'm not sure you understand the term "tight" the way most of us do. Having played older 5150s, 6505s, and 6505+s (both the 120 watt head and the 112 combo), I have to say the "+" models are tighter than the original 5150/regular 6505.

Oh, and 5150 = 6505; 5150II = 6505+. But 5150 =/= 6505+

The original circuitry is "looser/more bassy" with a more aggressive growl to it. The + models have tightened bass and are a bit more focused and slightly more smooth. It is easier to hear the intricacies of your tight rhythm riffs on a + model. But the originals perhaps sound bigger and more aggressive. Both are capable of the same genres of extreme metal, and a lot of the differences can be accounted for with a good EQ pedal.

Next, a 112 combo is never going to sound as big/full as a 412. The 112 combo can sound relatively huge for its size -- but not with that awful Sheffield speaker. Put a V 30 or Eminence Governor (or any other V 30 clone) in there. If you want a little more low end while taming some of the mids, try an Eminence Swamp Thang. Or just find a 412 cab with nice speakers and plug it into that. You don't have to convert it into a head if you don't want to -- that's just for convenience/a clean look.

Also, are you using your 112's effects loop? Because that essentially neuters the amp, adding tons of solid-state-like fizz and taking away most of the low-end. This is a big flaw in the 6505+ 112 that its big brothers don't have. If you simply don't use the effects loop, it'll sound like it's supposed to. But if you're going to run an EQ in there or any other time-based effects, you need to mod the effects loop. It's easy, and I'll help direct you to how that is done, if you're interested.

Finally, as others have said, the guitars were different. Though you have a nice, fat pickup in your Strat, it is a much lighter guitar than an LP. Someone somewhere once said "weight = tone." I pretty much agree with that. Strats are more suited for leads and a thinner, more cutting sound. They aren't my first choice for heavy "chugga" style playing. That said, they can do the job with the right pickups. Just not as well as a heavier mahogany guitar.
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#16
Quote by KailM
Finally, as others have said, the guitars were different. Though you have a nice, fat pickup in your Strat, it is a much lighter guitar than an LP. Someone somewhere once said "weight = tone." I pretty much agree with that. Strats are more suited for leads and a thinner, more cutting sound. They aren't my first choice for heavy "chugga" style playing. That said, they can do the job with the right pickups. Just not as well as a heavier mahogany guitar.
I'd almost say the opposite, but I think we're just viewing singles/hums differently within a strat. The general sound of a single-coil strat, at least on neck/middle positions, has a lot of clarity and "balls" great for blues and such, but might mud up with heavy distortion. A hot bridge humbucker on the strat (like TS' strat) can thin the sound out enough so that the "balls" of the amp come through. Likewise, a HH equipped guitar generally sounds less defined but works better with distortion. That's my experience, anyway.
Last edited by Will Lane at Apr 24, 2015,
#17
At what volume did you play? If you play with your 6505+ at 0.5 post gain and with post gain at 2 with 5150 of course the 5150 will sound a lot tighter.
#18
Quote by Will Lane
I'd almost say the opposite, but I think we're just viewing singles/hums differently within a strat. The general sound of a single-coil strat, at least on neck/middle positions, has a lot of clarity and "balls" great for blues and such, but might mud up with heavy distortion. A hot bridge humbucker on the strat (like TS' strat) can thin the sound out enough so that the "balls" of the amp come through. Likewise, a HH equipped guitar generally sounds less defined but works better with distortion. That's my experience, anyway.

Neck and middle positions will sound muddy on any guitar, regardless of the pickup type. They are just muddier pickup positions, not good for high gain rhythm tones. I mean, just try picking closer to the bridge or closer to the neck. Closer to the bridge sounds brighter and has more clarity. It's the same with pickups.

I'm not sure whether a bridge single coil with high gain distortion will sound more or less muddy than a bridge humbucker, though (and that also has to do with the particular pickup we are talking about). Single coils sound thinner and brighter than humbuckers so I would guess it could have more clarity. But I haven't done a comparison so I don't know.


But TS, of course there is a difference - you are playing through a different amp (also, the settings on different amps may work differently), different cab (different size and speakers), different guitar, and you are playing in a different room. I would be surprised if it sounded exactly the same.
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#19
Quote by trashedlostfdup
and doesn't surprise me at all,,nothing was held constant. Differet guitar, Different amp, different speakers.

Different rig is different.



This.
And you're trying it in a whole different room as well, and an open-back combo in a small room with hard walls will sound a LOT different from a warehouse sized Guitar Denter and a closed-back four-speaker cabinet.
#20
Quote by MaggaraMarine
Neck and middle positions will sound muddy on any guitar, regardless of the pickup type. They are just muddier pickup positions, not good for high gain rhythm tones. I mean, just try picking closer to the bridge or closer to the neck. Closer to the bridge sounds brighter and has more clarity. It's the same with pickups.

I'm not sure whether a bridge single coil with high gain distortion will sound more or less muddy than a bridge humbucker, though (and that also has to do with the particular pickup we are talking about). Single coils sound thinner and brighter than humbuckers so I would guess it could have more clarity. But I haven't done a comparison so I don't know.

Ahh, thanks for clarifying c:
#21
Quote by MaggaraMarine


I'm not sure whether a bridge single coil with high gain distortion will sound more or less muddy than a bridge humbucker, though (and that also has to do with the particular pickup we are talking about). Single coils sound thinner and brighter than humbuckers so I would guess it could have more clarity. But I haven't done a comparison so I don't know.



single coil pups on a strat do retain more clarity when used with high gain. they also have a bit of a hollow sound (best way to describe it) which isn't exactly the same as a humbucker. you really have to pour on the gain to get them to mush.

i don't find that the neck position with single coils muds up. perhaps you just don't have the amp setup with those postions in mind. being a strat user i set my tone controls so i can go back and forth between the bridge and neck without issues (middle i only use for acoustic type clean sounds).
#22
The point I was trying to make about Strats is that even though he has a Crunch Lab in the bridge, it still won't sound the same as a Les Paul, even if that LP has a Crunch Lab in the bridge as well. Certainly, his Strat can do metal, but it probably won't sound as thick or warm as a heavier guitar like a LP.

But yeah, basically what some other people are saying:

Totally different guitars/rigs, different venues = different sound.
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#23
Quote by trashedlostfdup
and doesn't surprise me at all,,nothing was held constant. Differet guitar, Different amp, different speakers.

Different rig is different.


+1

Quote by monwobobbo
single coil pups on a strat do retain more clarity when used with high gain. they also have a bit of a hollow sound (best way to describe it) which isn't exactly the same as a humbucker. you really have to pour on the gain to get them to mush.


I'm not sure. I know what you mean about the hollower sound, and I agree, but at the same time I'm not sure that necessarily leads to more clarity. Most HBs (at least, HBs which are aimed at higher gain tones) have a much more focussed, middier tone which generally leads to a tighter tone at high gain, at least in my experience.

Granted... "tighter" might not be what you mean by "more clarity".
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#24
Quote by KailM
The point I was trying to make about Strats is that even though he has a Crunch Lab in the bridge, it still won't sound the same as a Les Paul, even if that LP has a Crunch Lab in the bridge as well. Certainly, his Strat can do metal, but it probably won't sound as thick or warm as a heavier guitar like a LP.

But yeah, basically what some other people are saying:

Totally different guitars/rigs, different venues = different sound.


Even if I believed in the 'wood makes tone' theory (which I don't, thinking it absolute and utter horseshit), I'd say that given the other massive variables involved in the query at hand, the type of wood the guitar is made of is at most an extremely minor player in the overall sound.
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#25
Quote by Dave_Mc
+1


I'm not sure. I know what you mean about the hollower sound, and I agree, but at the same time I'm not sure that necessarily leads to more clarity. Most HBs (at least, HBs which are aimed at higher gain tones) have a much more focussed, middier tone which generally leads to a tighter tone at high gain, at least in my experience.

Granted... "tighter" might not be what you mean by "more clarity".


been my experience that unless you pile really stupid amounts of gain on a single coil pup that it always has kinda of a clean sound especially when playing chords (best way i can describe it). with a humbucker you get that kind of violin sound when using distortion and getting sustain. singles don't really do that you can hear the note, there is some sustain but the clarity is still there. listen to yngwie you can hear the notes very distinctly they never really blend together. if you listen to a lot of humbucker players the notes can blend with high gain. certainly humbuckers designed to work with high gain have worked on that problem to insure greater clarity.
#26
Listen to KailM, he knows his shit about 6505s. I've owned a 5150 and a 6505 and played all of the variants several times and I can always back up everything he says about them. 100%
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#27
Quote by Cathbard
Sorry, but this sounds like "shit single speaker sounds different to 4 different shit speakers." Comparing one shit speaker to another is a fool's errand. Plug your amp into a decent cab and see what happens.


This^

If the only thing semi-similar is the type of amp (which aren't actually the same), then it only makes sense for them to sound different for good or bad, doesn't it? And since there are so many variances between the two, its more likely that its actually a couple of those things making it sound so different ie: having 4 speakers instead of 2, or HB's vs SC's....

Take your amp with you next time, or if they have one there like it, that also works, and just experiment with whatever different cabs they have there. You gotta let your own ears tell you what sounds good!
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Last edited by red.guitar at Apr 24, 2015,
#28
Quote by Arby911
Even if I believed in the 'wood makes tone' theory (which I don't, thinking it absolute and utter horseshit), I'd say that given the other massive variables involved in the query at hand, the type of wood the guitar is made of is at most an extremely minor player in the overall sound.


Agreed that it is probably the smallest factor in the matter at hand, and also somewhat agree about the 'wood makes tone' theory.

My opinion is that the weight of the guitar body has a lot more of an effect on its tone than what type of wood it's made of. Not trying start an argument here though. I've just noticed that my heavier guitars have always sustained longer than the Strats I've owned, and generally had a thicker tone as well. In any case, two very different guitars, even with the same pickups are not going to sound the same. Whether one is 'better' than another or not is subjective.
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#29
You said 100W 5150 in the original post. Are you comparing a EVH 5150 III 100W head versus a Peavey 6505+ 112 combo? Or are we talking about an old Peavey 5150 120W head?

Do you recall how many channels the 5150 you played had, what color the channel LEDs were, or how many buttons were on the footswitch? Any of those will help as well.

Or was the 5150 you played new and white?
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#30
Well the 5150/6505 does sound a bit different than the 5150 II/65065+ and throw the LP and different speakers on top and there you go.

You also need to realize the 6505+ combo is not the same circuit as the 6505+/5150 II heads. It is similar but not the same

So really you tried 2 completely different setups and had different results, that is not exactly surprising
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#31
Quote by metalmingee

Or was the 5150 you played new and white?

That is racist, why cant it be a new black one?
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#32
Quote by monwobobbo
(a) been my experience that unless you pile really stupid amounts of gain on a single coil pup that it always has kinda of a clean sound especially when playing chords (best way i can describe it). (b) with a humbucker you get that kind of violin sound when using distortion and getting sustain. (c) singles don't really do that you can hear the note, there is some sustain but the clarity is still there. listen to yngwie you can hear the notes very distinctly they never really blend together. (d) if you listen to a lot of humbucker players the notes can blend with high gain. (e) certainly humbuckers designed to work with high gain have worked on that problem to insure greater clarity.


Yeah i think were were sort of talking about separate things, as I suspected.

(a) Same here, agreed.

(b) Agreed.

(c) Agreed.

(d) Agreed, but depending on how/what you play, that sort of compressed "wall of sound" can actually be more useful- to me, it's more useful and tighter under high gain conditions than the clearer (Fender) single coil tonality you're talking about, where I struggle to get enough compression, mids etc. for it to work the way I need.

The easiest way to describe it, for me, is that under high gain conditions the humbuckers (especially hotter, middier, more compressed ones) almost play themselves, whereas the singles provide a bit more fight and I have to force them to do what I want (which is much more difficult ).

(e) Agreed.


Maybe clarity is the wrong word. But you know what I mean.
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Quote by K33nbl4d3
I'll have to put the Classic T models on my to-try list. Shame the finish options there are Anachronism Gold, Nuclear Waste and Aged Clown, because in principle the plaintop is right up my alley.

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#33
Quote by KailM
Agreed that it is probably the smallest factor in the matter at hand, and also somewhat agree about the 'wood makes tone' theory.

My opinion is that the weight of the guitar body has a lot more of an effect on its tone than what type of wood it's made of. Not trying start an argument here though. I've just noticed that my heavier guitars have always sustained longer than the Strats I've owned, and generally had a thicker tone as well. In any case, two very different guitars, even with the same pickups are not going to sound the same. Whether one is 'better' than another or not is subjective.


I think that perhaps we're not at odds here then, we just perhaps phrase it a bit differently.

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#34
Quote by Dave_Mc
Yeah i think were were sort of talking about separate things, as I suspected.

(a) Same here, agreed.

(b) Agreed.

(c) Agreed.

(d) Agreed, but depending on how/what you play, that sort of compressed "wall of sound" can actually be more useful- to me, it's more useful and tighter under high gain conditions than the clearer (Fender) single coil tonality you're talking about, where I struggle to get enough compression, mids etc. for it to work the way I need.

The easiest way to describe it, for me, is that under high gain conditions the humbuckers (especially hotter, middier, more compressed ones) almost play themselves, whereas the singles provide a bit more fight and I have to force them to do what I want (which is much more difficult ).

(e) Agreed.


Maybe clarity is the wrong word. But you know what I mean.


on D - i know exactly what you are saying and it's one of the toughest parts of going from humbuckers to single coils under those circumstances. i played humbucker equiped guitars for most of my years playing. did the metal, shred thing, floyd roses etc. i only in the last 6-7 years started to play strats with single coils. they do make you try way harder cuz any flaws aren't so easily covered. this made me a better player technique wise. funny thing is that i still use high gain and rarely want the tones strats are mainly used for. use a BC Rich for Peter Green blues stuff, i know i'm sick
#35
Quote by Offworld92
Listen to KailM, he knows his shit about 6505s. I've owned a 5150 and a 6505 and played all of the variants several times and I can always back up everything he says about them. 100%


Thanks man!
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#36
Okay guys, love all the responses. Here is an update:

Today, I took my Strat into guitar center and played around. It is actually a 6505+ head; not a 5150 head. My bad.

Even with my guitar, it sounded completely different. And this time instead of plugging into a Marshall MX cab, we plugged it into a 1960.

So, what do you guys think: should I swap out the speaker in my combo with a V30 and re-tube/re-bias the combo a bit hotter, or run the combo into a 4x12 loaded with vintage 30s?
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#37
Isn't the first thing everybody does is replace the speaker? And if not, why not? Try that first, I would. If you still want a 4x12 do that as well, then if you ever want a smaller rig you have that too. Either way, get rid of that crappy Sheffield.
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#38
Do you think I need to re-tube and re-bias it? I am told that the stock bias on the 6505s is really cold.
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#39
Just wind the bias knob up full. As for the tubes, you aren't still using what it came with, are you? 6505+ combos need new tubes and speaker right outa the box.
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#40
I bought it used, so I can't be certain if they are stock tubes.

...biasing can't be that easy. I asked everyone at work and they told me it is a really complicated thing that I should take to a professional to get done...
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