#1
Link to said deal: http://www.music-group.com/news.aspx

It seems like TC will have better and faster production, but I also think that their overall quality and honestly their, for lack of a better phrase, inspiration to innovate, may cease to be as impressive as it is currently.

Any thoughts guys? Props? Concerns? What good may come of this? What bad things may come?
Caution:
This post may contain my opinion and/or inaccurate information.

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#2
Capitalism is a pyramid scam in the long run. I don't own any tc pedals currently but they do seem to do a great job at r&d and innovation, the Flashback is a modern classic imo, it'd be kinda sad if they dropped to Behringer levels. It definitely doesn't have the optimistic upside of the recent Line 6+Yamaha marriage, imo. I may finally pick up a Polytuner soon.
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#3
Well, honestly, I've seen a LOT of complaints about TC Electronics customer service & repair histories the past couple of years, enough to make me avoid buying them. It seems that, while the products may be great sounding when they work, such issues as may arise are not handled well. So there might not be as big a quality drop as some might expect.
Sturgeon's 2nd Law, a.k.a. Sturgeon's Revelation: “Ninety percent of everything is crap.”

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#4
super interesting. might become the Behringer "boutique" line.
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#6
unfortunately money talks
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#7
Quote by dannyalcatraz
Well, honestly, I've seen a LOT of complaints about TC Electronics customer service & repair histories the past couple of years, enough to make me avoid buying them. It seems that, while the products may be great sounding when they work, such issues as may arise are not handled well. So there might not be as big a quality drop as some might expect.

I did some research on that and I still call bullshit to be honest, most of the stories held together quite poorly (the "why do my strings keep breaking if I only pick like a gorilla?!?" type), and I got nothing but great customer service from them myself. And I did run into a defective pedal, but it was replaced with no hassle and everything (and my pedalboard is quite heavily TC-dominated ) works perfect since.

Either way, I don't know the company in question, but I think anyone with half a brain will know that the best way to get profit out of this is NOT change the way TC have been rolling so far, they have their perfect niche of in-between expensive boutique pedals and simple straightforward Boss-type stuff which is why their pedals are so popular, and there is no reason to change that.
Last edited by TheLiberation at May 1, 2015,
#8
Quote by diabolical
There's no way that it could be a good thing, few companies competing on the market leads to higher prices and monopolization.
Can't be good for the small music store either.


Compete or perish.

A bunch of small companies that may or may not be there tomorrow, with amateur hour customer support isn't a good thing either.

I don't think the industry is in any danger of monopolistic takeover...

As for your concerns about higher prices and small music stores, which has consistently better prices, Guitar Center or Evans Music City, Memorial Music or Great Southern?

I think you're worrying about nonexistent problems.
“Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge.”
Charles Darwin
#9
My thoughts would be not to be concerned by it. Plenty of pedal builders out there in the market, with equal or better quality and prices. Never cared much for tc apart for their rack units, nowadays even there we have many options at varying prices & build quality. The nova series required a 12v supply besides the repeater pedal & the toneprint stuff although innovative was not for everyone when first released due to being dependent on idevices for full usuage of the beaming feature.
So overall, not all that bothered by it.
#10
Quote by Arby911


I think you're worrying about nonexistent problems.


Worrying? Not really.

They were big enough already. Now they're lumped in a Nestle-like conglomerate that will most like stifle research and lose their brand identity. Look at what pretty much happened to Alesis and Akai to name few.

Pretty soon Namm will be just one big company getting orders from the two or 3 internet retailers.
Last edited by diabolical at May 1, 2015,
#11
Quote by TheLiberation
I did some research on that and I still call bullshit to be honest, most of the stories held together quite poorly (the "why do my strings keep breaking if I only pick like a gorilla?!?" type), and I got nothing but great customer service from them myself. And I did run into a defective pedal, but it was replaced with no hassle and everything (and my pedal is quite heavily TC-dominated ) works perfect since.

Not BS.

http://forums.musicplayer.com/ubbthreads.php/topics/2517128/1
http://www.talkbass.com/threads/a-tale-of-customer-service.1007196/

For those who don't want to read the stories in the links, highlights:

9+ months for an Admin on a guitar magazine's forums to get a refund on a product that was shipped incomplete. And he got only after upper management took notice of his forum posts because he'd been told off on the phone by a CS rep after they had strung him along with promises of correction beyond the standard refund period.

Former music retailers saying they didn't like dealing with TCE's CS.

Absolute refusal to service a defective product.

A pedal builder who got his pedal repaired...then experienced the same failure that he had asked them to repair in the first place.

A guy who did a TCE factory firmware upgrade and ended up with a bricked pedal. Repair estimate quote: $110-190...on a pedal that costs @$280-350 (new).

Pedals that once broken were not repairable due to attaching the pedal switch directly to the circuit board.

Another guy with a new pedal TCE refused to repair after giving him a runaround.

A guy whose pedal only worked properly when on its own isolated power supply.
Sturgeon's 2nd Law, a.k.a. Sturgeon's Revelation: “Ninety percent of everything is crap.”

Why, yes, I am a lawyer- thanks for asking!

Log off and play yer guitar!

Strap on, tune up, rock out!
#12
Is it a huge number of problems? Compared to their sales, no.

But without question, they were poorly handled by TCE's customer service people, and that's enough for me to say no thanks.
Sturgeon's 2nd Law, a.k.a. Sturgeon's Revelation: “Ninety percent of everything is crap.”

Why, yes, I am a lawyer- thanks for asking!

Log off and play yer guitar!

Strap on, tune up, rock out!
#13
The music business in general is going through a period of decline and/or reorganization.
Guitar Center is nearing bankruptcy (after having put a ton of Mom and Pops out of business) and a whole lot of music businesses are seeing their bottom lines decline. Peavey is teetering (they're pretty much going to be an all-import company soon) and a lot of the iconic brand names are being taken over by larger congloms looking to find either a "rabbit" to shore up their overall bottom line or the smaller companies themselves are selling out to give owners a final cashout and the company an infusion of cash that might give them a chance at survival.

Gibson seems to have done a prudent thing by dumping most of the under-$1000 guitars (Epiphone is/was supposed to be filling those gaps anyway) and concentrating on getting their quality levels (and profit margins) back in line by producing fewer, but more expensive guitars.

The Yamaha-Line6 thing bears watching. Line 6 was already doing well with amp sales, and wasn't doing bad with Variax guitar sales, and Yamaha wasn't suffering either. But Line 6 gives Yamaha a "halo" product in the music industry and Yamaha gives Line 6 access to a LOT of tasty technology that Yamaha itself wasn't sure how to use. Some Line 6 engineers bailed on the company for what they thought were greener pastures with startups, but Line 6 now has more money to offer bright talent. Don't be surprised to see Line 6 technology in non-music areas (automotive, for example).
#14
Quote by dspellman
The music business in general is going through a period of decline and/or reorganization.
Guitar Center is nearing bankruptcy (after having put a ton of Mom and Pops out of business) and a whole lot of music businesses are seeing their bottom lines decline. Peavey is teetering (they're pretty much going to be an all-import company soon) and a lot of the iconic brand names are being taken over by larger congloms looking to find either a "rabbit" to shore up their overall bottom line or the smaller companies themselves are selling out to give owners a final cashout and the company an infusion of cash that might give them a chance at survival.

Gibson seems to have done a prudent thing by dumping most of the under-$1000 guitars (Epiphone is/was supposed to be filling those gaps anyway) and concentrating on getting their quality levels (and profit margins) back in line by producing fewer, but more expensive guitars.

The Yamaha-Line6 thing bears watching. Line 6 was already doing well with amp sales, and wasn't doing bad with Variax guitar sales, and Yamaha wasn't suffering either. But Line 6 gives Yamaha a "halo" product in the music industry and Yamaha gives Line 6 access to a LOT of tasty technology that Yamaha itself wasn't sure how to use. Some Line 6 engineers bailed on the company for what they thought were greener pastures with startups, but Line 6 now has more money to offer bright talent. Don't be surprised to see Line 6 technology in non-music areas (automotive, for example).


GC has been "going bankrupt" for several years now, yet somehow manages to keep opening new stores. I've looked at a lot of their projections etc. and I'm quite frankly not sure how they do it.

IMO, they have 2 or 3 times the physical presence they should have (we have 6 stores now in Houston since the newest one had their grand opening this week).

I haven't been able to find data on Peavey that suggests what you are claiming, so I can't address that. I know they did a Reorg late last year, but I don't know what their finances actually look like. Overseas manufacturing is a simple fact of life, especially for electronics. Even most companies that tout "made in USA" use overseas components in their manufacturing. The World is Flat.

I think Gibson will price themselves out of the market and Fender (and others) will be more than happy to pick up the slack. Gibson has a history of shitty decisions.

L6-Yamaha is a win and likely a good investment opportunity.
“Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge.”
Charles Darwin
#15
Quote by dannyalcatraz
Is it a huge number of problems? Compared to their sales, no.

But without question, they were poorly handled by TCE's customer service people, and that's enough for me to say no thanks.

That's admittedly more solid than the stuff I had read (and I did spent quite a bit on time on google), although I'm still inclined to think these were either isolated cases or the posters were not telling everything - my own experiences were the polar opposite of that, and besides literally a few isolated threads on the Internet, I've read nothing but good things about their stuff and service which were very much like my own experiences.

Btw, every time you contact their tech support the person who treats it signs it by name and there's a thingy to report whether you're happy with the service or not, may just as well be a result of the stories of employees occasionally being dicks reaching the management.
#16
Quote by TheLiberation
That's admittedly more solid than the stuff I had read (and I did spent quite a bit on time on google), although I'm still inclined to think these were either isolated cases or the posters were not telling everything - my own experiences were the polar opposite of that, and besides literally a few isolated threads on the Internet, I've read nothing but good things about their stuff and service which were very much like my own experiences.

Btw, every time you contact their tech support the person who treats it signs it by name and there's a thingy to report whether you're happy with the service or not, may just as well be a result of the stories of employees occasionally being dicks reaching the management.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation_bias

We all do it, and it's a constant struggle not to.
“Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge.”
Charles Darwin
#17
Never had a single problem with TC stuff. I've owned like 4 of their pedals.
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#18
I'm sure there is more to each story than is being told. But at the very least, it is dirt simple to ascertain the basic facts of the Admin's story, namely that:

1) TCE released a new product advertising enumerated features
2) some of those features- including at least one he specifically bought the product for- were actually not included on release.
3) it was claimed said features were then going to be added on by a subsequent release to the initial purchasers
4) said features were never released
5) said information was not told to complaining purchasers until well after a normal purchase was no longer permitted.

The Admin only got a refund after a TCE executive in the relevant corporate subdivision read a thread on the Internet that happened to contain the complaint. The TCE exec never contradicted one word of the Admin's tale of woe (which would get you a pretty quick victory in small claims court).

Overall, that is HORRIBLE customer service. New products almost always have issues- see Apple's new watch- and you don't tell first adopters experiencing serious issues they're out of luck. That is a good way to shoot yourself in the foot.

As for the others?

I know some of those guys personally (in passing), so my testimony is thus somewhat suspect because of potential bias. I'll still say I have no reason to doubt the overall substance of their stories.

And remember, most of those other horror stories came from people who liked their purchases...right up until they broke.
Sturgeon's 2nd Law, a.k.a. Sturgeon's Revelation: “Ninety percent of everything is crap.”

Why, yes, I am a lawyer- thanks for asking!

Log off and play yer guitar!

Strap on, tune up, rock out!
Last edited by dannyalcatraz at May 1, 2015,
#19
Quote by Arby911
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation_bias

We all do it, and it's a constant struggle not to.

You have a reason right afterwards why I think that, it's not just me trying hard. For a counter-example, I've heard overwhelmingly bad things about Line 6 Spider amps, and wasn't blown away myself, so going the same route, I'd filter any super-optimistic statements about them through what I had previously read. In case of TC it's the other way around, the positive opinions I read alone outweigh the negative ones, and my own experiences very much confirm the former. And according to some of those "horror stories", I should already be plugging straight into the amp and having a pile of broken switches seeing as I have 5 TC pedals (each one of them bought because I decided theirs has the most to offer in its price) - used a lot, and I'm not a tiny 60 kg guy.

@Danny: agreed, this example does sound pretty bad. But then, that could have been a one-time screw-up. I don't know. All I can say is that my own experiences were the polar opposite, and as I said one of those was replacing a defective pedal (which went without any issues).
#20
Quote by TheLiberation
You have a reason right afterwards why I think that, it's not just me trying hard. For a counter-example, I've heard overwhelmingly bad things about Line 6 Spider amps, and wasn't blown away myself, so going the same route, I'd filter any super-optimistic statements about them through what I had previously read. In case of TC it's the other way around, the positive opinions I read alone outweigh the negative ones, and my own experiences very much confirm the former. And according to some of those "horror stories", I should already be plugging straight into the amp and having a pile of broken switches seeing as I have 5 TC pedals (each one of them bought because I decided theirs has the most to offer in its price) - used a lot, and I'm not a tiny 60 kg guy.

@Danny: agreed, this example does sound pretty bad. But then, that could have been a one-time screw-up. I don't know. All I can say is that my own experiences were the polar opposite, and as I said one of those was replacing a defective pedal (which went without any issues).


Oh,ok,you're not like pretty much everyone else on the planet.


Except you are. Sorry.

There's a book called (rudely enough) "You are not so smart" that examines and explains this type of thing. You might find it interesting.

FWIW, believing your experience is typical and that of others is an outlier is addressed in the book.
“Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge.”
Charles Darwin
#21
Let me be clear: I think TCE makes great sounding pedals, and most people are not going to have problems. However, how a company handles a customer having a problem is every bit as important as putting out a good product in the first place.

That Admin's experience may have been fairly anomalous, but it was extremely bad. And other people- still not many- are reporting CS experiences that even if only half as egregious as reported are still bad enough to raise red flags.

Personally, I take decent care of my stuff. To date, I've never had a pedal go bad on me in my 12 years of electric playing, and only 2 portable digital modelers of mine have had issues (because of things I did). But I also recognize that stuff goes wrong. And when it does, I want reasonable remedies- decent return policies, relatively hassle-free warranty procedures, and affordable repair costs for pricier gear.

(Which, FWIW, is also why I tend to avoid buying pedals that use exotic, hard to replace parts if I know about them.)
Sturgeon's 2nd Law, a.k.a. Sturgeon's Revelation: “Ninety percent of everything is crap.”

Why, yes, I am a lawyer- thanks for asking!

Log off and play yer guitar!

Strap on, tune up, rock out!
Last edited by dannyalcatraz at May 2, 2015,
#22
Any horror stories since 2013?
Quote by zgr0826
My culture is worthless and absolutely inferior to the almighty Leaf.


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#23
Well I'm not buying any TCE pedals now. Only on the merit that it is Behringer and that sucks, because I really liked my old Alter Ego.
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Last edited by Robbgnarly at May 2, 2015,
#24
Quote by Robbgnarly
Well I'm not buying any TCE pedals now. Only on the merit that it is Behringer.



*queue fire extinguisher jokes in 3...2....*


Quote by zgr0826
My culture is worthless and absolutely inferior to the almighty Leaf.


Quote by JustRooster
I incurred the wrath of the Association of White Knights. Specifically the Parent's Basement branch of service.
#25
Quote by H4T3BR33D3R
*queue fire extinguisher jokes in 3...2....*



No, not any fire jokes.

It just sucks to see a decent company/product that is now owned by a company with such shitty QC as Behringer
2002 PRS CE22
2013 G&L ASAT Deluxe
2009 Epiphone G-400 (SH-4)
Marshall JCM2000 DSL100
Krank 1980 Jr 20watt
Krank Rev 4x12 (eminence V12)
GFS Greenie/Digitech Bad Monkey
Morley Bad Horsie 2
MXR Smart Gate
#26
Quote by Robbgnarly
No, not any fire jokes.

It just sucks to see a decent company/product that is now owned by a company with such shitty QC as Behringer


Oh yeah that's definitely a shame for sure. I might need to pick up that polytune and spark booster used now
Quote by zgr0826
My culture is worthless and absolutely inferior to the almighty Leaf.


Quote by JustRooster
I incurred the wrath of the Association of White Knights. Specifically the Parent's Basement branch of service.
#27
well i got my t2 coming in the mail next week, after that ill wont buy any tc electronic stuff... I have a delay lab so i dont need a flashback and the modulation and dirt pedals from tc suck.
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#28
Quote by H4T3BR33D3R
Any horror stories since 2013?

Don't know- haven't looked.

There's enough pedal (and any other gear) companies out there that it's very easy to find good stuff without revisiting those who have gotten themselves kicked off the island.

Not that I'd put TCE in the same category as the worst offenders. They're not even close. But everything of theirs I wanted in the first place, I can find a comparable pedal from Pigtonix, Blackout Effectors, Wampler, Moog, Strymon, etc.

Now, this was from 2011, posted to show more of the pattern:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nOkzG--9d2o&sns=em
Sturgeon's 2nd Law, a.k.a. Sturgeon's Revelation: “Ninety percent of everything is crap.”

Why, yes, I am a lawyer- thanks for asking!

Log off and play yer guitar!

Strap on, tune up, rock out!
Last edited by dannyalcatraz at May 2, 2015,