#1
hi guys,

so i've been trying to solve this issue for a while now.

i split my signal into two amps one being pitch shifted down an octave to sound like a bass and the other just a normal guitar, a Royal Blood style setup.

but my problem is since i'm using the octave down, chords sound quite messy, so i play single note riffs. however my tone really suffers and sounds incredibly weak and trebley.

i am using an MXR Fullbore Metal distortion pedal (which i now realise sounds quite terrible in this context) it doesn't suit the one note at a time style of playing. my amp is a Vox VT40+ but this is only important for practicing, as when i perform i use the amps at my school so tonaly my amp isn't what i need to upgrade right now. recently i performed at a concert and the guitar sounded really lacking in gain and lows/mids.

so, does anyone have any ideas on how to get a stronger/heavier tone from playing in this style? i have considered using a fuzz pedal as i think that could really add low end and stop so much treble from coming through making it sound better, because getting a better distortion pedal (i was thinking of the boss power stack) may not actually thicken up my tone well enough.

any ideas?
#2
I really really don't understand - if you know what you don't like what you like in your sound ("really lacking in gain and lows/mids") how do you not simply turn up the gain control, either on the guitar amp or on the bass amp or both, and the lows/mids on whatever amp?

What's the gear you'd be using anyway?
What guitar, what amps, what pedals...
Name's Luca.

Quote by OliOsbourne
I don't know anything about this topic, but I just clicked on this thread because of your username :O
Quote by Cajundaddy
Clue: amplifiers amplify so don't turn it on if you need quiet.
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#3
it's not that i'm not turning up the gain, i have the gain on the pedal at about the place where it gets the most without buzzing crazily, the amp i was using was on the clean channel. the thing is no matter how i adjust the eq on the amp or the pedal it still sounds weak because thats the way the pedal was made it is a very trebley sounding pedal, eqing wont solve the problem at its root. i assume i need a new pedal that can replace the MXR.

my gear:
epiphone SG-400

boss harmonist ps-6
boss flanger bf-3
hardwire sc-2 valve distortion
MXR Fullbore metal
hardwire dl-8 Delay

and other pedals used on my bass sound.

keep asking if you want anymore info about the gear.
Last edited by GuitarHawk99 at May 1, 2015,
#4
The Fullbore is a pretty sharp-sounding pedal, so if you want a fatter sound, you could probably look for something else (the same reason why I sold it, it's great for thrash/death/black metal kind of stuff, but I also prefer a different type of sound). It's hard to say more without knowing what exactly do you play though, single-note playing could mean different things.
#5
are you using a bass amp for the octave down sound? It might sound better that way and be less damaging in the long for your speakers
#7
Yeah I don't think the Fullbore is the right one for you. A fuzz could be good, but out of curiosity what amp are you using at your school? There's only so much a pedal can do if there is a root problem with the amp.
I'm just a kickin' and a gougin' in the mud and the blood and the beer.
#9
when i perform i use a bass amp yes

at my school there is a line 6 spyder, and a fender amp of some sort, dont know the exact name looks kinda old tho, i use the fender because of the tubes over the line 6's sold state.

i have wanted a higher gain sort of more crazy fuzz pedal, i own a Zvex Mastotron and thats pretty good, but i use that on my bass sound to add a boost and loads of sub bass so i cant really use it for my guitar sound
#10
I'd try the mastotron on the guitar sound.

You wrote you're using it to boost and add sub-bass, but adding sub-bass to a bass guitar isn't a hell of an idea - your amp might try to reproduce frequencies it doesn't have the power to reproduce, or your speaker might do that.
In any case it's not something you want.

As for the boost, I'd simply try turning up the gain.

Are you using a proper bass amp or a guitar amp set up to sound like a bass amp?
'cause if it's the latter, I found your problem.
Name's Luca.

Quote by OliOsbourne
I don't know anything about this topic, but I just clicked on this thread because of your username :O
Quote by Cajundaddy
Clue: amplifiers amplify so don't turn it on if you need quiet.
Quote by chrismendiola
I guess spambots are now capable of reading minds.
#11
im using a actual bass amp for my bass sound. there is absolutely no problem with my bass sound, the zvex needs to be there or it sounds like just a low tuned guitar running through a bass amp. i dont use gain on a clean bass sound either.

what im talking about is my actual guitar sound not the bass sound that is seperate to what im trying to achieve, im running my guitar sound through a guitar amp.
Last edited by GuitarHawk99 at May 1, 2015,
#12
The fender is not really a heavy amp. what amps are you using when you play record.
Prs se Holcomb is the answer
#13
Way Huge Fat Sandwich, it sings with fat balls.

Mesa Royal Atlantic
Marshall Class 5C
Emperor 4x12 Silver Bells
Yamaha THR10
LTD Viper 500 with Duncans
Last edited by Perverockstar69 at May 1, 2015,
#14
yeah the fat sandwich does sound pretty good, i might look into that.

i just thought i'd mention, im going for a more heavy high gain sound, but without all of the high end fizz that most metal pedals have. i dont want a traditional fuzz sound more crazy and high gain, yet keeping the tone even is probably what im after.

heres a royal blood song. i really like the heaviness of his "guitar sound", especially at around 3:00 at the bridge. that sort of buzzing high gain sound. be mindful his bass is adding a lot of low end in the audio tho.

i think using a pog would definitely help to add more layers to the sound, but to thicken up my sound i need a better tone in the first place.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8v9XMYR6CTM
#15
some form of modern big muff will get you close. the dues ex machina would be great here. i play transposing the octaves into dropped regular guitar and run a big muff clone (vick audio 73 rams head) and i can get convincingly close.

once you get the right EQ, you dont need a LOT of gain for this really. its decpetive. i dnot find this very high gain at all. the trick is the HEAVY tonality. dropped tuning is most of it. go for the right tone and not the highest gain.

people often mistake heavy sounds for high gain. if your get a dropped C guitar or something, it almost instantly gets you that heavy tone and you dont need as much gain, you can roll it back and get more clarity and power. thats why people do it.
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#16
i'm going to suggest a different approach. you need to treat the bass and the higher end as separate entities. use a Y chord into seperate fx for the guitar and bass. this way you have far more tonal control over each part. as mentnioned you really don't need a ton of distortion if done right. i'd also suggest getting some kind of eq pedal for at least the bass end of things so you can further refine that sound.

i'm also going to have to mention that the gear you are using is pretty low end so don't expect to get that sound perfectly. he's obviously using way better gear. ideally you'd want high and low pass filters and a crossover of some sort but that kind of stuff ain't cheap. bassist billy sheehan does something similar with his bass splitting the sound into upper more guitar like registers and then blending it with the bass.
#17
Quote by GuitarHawk99


so i've been trying to solve this issue for a while now.


Check your personal messages (they work on this board?).
#18
Quote by dspellman
Check your personal messages (they work on this board?).



They do but you have to send it from the profile, not the thing at the top of the page.

Edit: TS, whatever Dspellman has sent you, it will probably be very helpful. This exact issue is something I'd consider him very knowledgeable about
I'm just a kickin' and a gougin' in the mud and the blood and the beer.
Last edited by dementiacaptain at May 2, 2015,
#19
i don't know what you classify as low end, although i know the hardwire pedals arent that great, im only using the sc-2 to limit and shave off some gain temporarily. the thing is that mike kerr (royal blood) actually uses the boss ps6 and the zvex mastotron in his gear, although he uses some pogs for the guitar signal they're only shifting up an octave not doing much else i believe. maybe adding a bit more octave range aswell.

also am splitting my signal already using stereo pedal outputs, and using a digitech whammy for the octave down.

ikey_ thats an interesting concept thanks for the input

eqing and filtering would be somthing i would do when i have money and have constant gigs, atm i really dont need anything more than a few pedals

which brings me onto the next point, dspellman i got your message, that sounds like an interesting idea, seems similar to the fishman triple play pickup, but i want to avoid the impracticalities of using tonnes of digital gear, as it will cause a lot of fuss not to mention the expense invloved.


by the way, how do i get that little box at the end of my posts so i can write what gear i have?


Edit: ok so i had a look at the Deus Ex Machina, its a pretty cool sounding pedal but it seems hard to find here in australia..

also if i were to add an eq pedal on my bass rig, should i use a bass eq pedal? i would imagine so?
Last edited by GuitarHawk99 at May 2, 2015,
#20
heres another version of the same song. this is his early sound. his tone here is really fuzzy from the Mastotron i guess, but the smoothness of the fuzz is really great.

of course i dont want to copy his tone exactly but im just explaining the general sound im looking for.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gkhQmzJ_qnk
#21
For Royal Blood you need something like a fuzz xD. Lots of great choices in fuzz terrains that can do what you want. Try some boxes and find what you like.

I recommend that you should start here https://www.axeandyoushallreceive.com/brands/creepy-fingers-effects

Mesa Royal Atlantic
Marshall Class 5C
Emperor 4x12 Silver Bells
Yamaha THR10
LTD Viper 500 with Duncans
Last edited by Perverockstar69 at May 3, 2015,
#22
Quote by GuitarHawk99

by the way, how do i get that little box at the end of my posts so i can write what gear i have?


That's your "signature." You'll find it under your profile.
#23
Quote by Will Lane
Get a bass player and use full chords.


/thread.


i'd try a big muff or similar fuzz.

The riff in Blue Orchid by the White Stripes is done similar to what you're doing, and uses a muff.

I'd look into Devi Ever if you want a cool, quality fuzz.
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--
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Last edited by boblittle at May 3, 2015,
#24
ok, so after some experimenting with my octave pedals and the Mastotron, i've figured out that the tone i'm after utilizes layers of octaves distorted by the fuzz. my best bet would be to buy a pog and another fuzz pedal and see where i go.

thanks for the suggestions guys.
#25
Quote by monwobobbo
ideally you'd want high and low pass filters and a crossover of some sort but that kind of stuff ain't cheap. bassist billy sheehan does something similar with his bass splitting the sound into upper more guitar like registers and then blending it with the bass.

I was thinking a low pass filter (or EQ pedal?) into the bass amp as well. Google found this:
http://www.valvewizard.co.uk/FretFreq.jpg
#26
hmm, actually hearing some review videos of the pog, it doesn't really sound as good as it could.... i thought i had the solution here, but using lower octaves wouldnt be very good all the time, ill have to keep looking at options i guess.

although, relying on an octave pedal to shape my tone isn't really what i want to do, when i was trying the Mastotron before, the tone wasnt as smooth as the one in the 2nd version of hole that i linked, i find it quite hard to make it smooth and harmonic-y.. i should focus more on the fuzz first i guess


an eq pedal might be good on the bass rig, but thats not what im really worried about right now, i think it sounds decent as a subby octave thing for now

so what is that Hz chart for?...
Last edited by GuitarHawk99 at May 4, 2015,
#27
Use the chart to figure out where to cut your frequencies (with a filter or EQ). Perhaps they're not that precise, but it sounded like a good idea
#28
yeah i like the idea , would there be anyway to measure the approximate Hz for each string coming out of my amp???
#29
Quote by GuitarHawk99
yeah i like the idea , would there be anyway to measure the approximate Hz for each string coming out of my amp???
http://plasticity.szynalski.com/tone-generator.htm This is the best I can think of without explaining each tone's assigned number. You're only going to be matching the core frequencies. The little box that says "pick note" is set to certain frequencies, I think the guitar's frequency band from standard tuning starts at E2. You'll need a sub woofer to hear the low stuff.

Oh wait this is better:
Quote by black_box
I was thinking a low pass filter (or EQ pedal?) into the bass amp as well. Google found this:
http://www.valvewizard.co.uk/FretFreq.jpg
c:
Last edited by Will Lane at May 4, 2015,
#31
keep in mind, royal blood has a bassist not a guitarist.

both instruments have their own timbre.
'91 Epiphone by Gibson Sheraton JLH
Godin 5th Avenue
ESP/LTD BELLA LUGOSI DRACULA
--
Hughes & Kettner Tubemeister 5
Hughes & Kettner 1x12 w/ Vintage 30's
Fender Mustang II
VOX AD30VT
--
MXR Super Badass Distortion>Boss CE-5>Boss OC-3> ???
#32
well i tried the app, but couldn't make much sense of the readings haha, i think when i do get around to eq-ing my bass rig, i'll be fine with just adjusting the frequencies according to the tone of the 'bass'

while i'm here, on one of my pedals the rubber back is peeling, what should i use to stick it back on? is hot glue too permanent?
Last edited by GuitarHawk99 at May 5, 2015,