#1
I'm on the quest of finding a decent, well-constructed and mid-priced audio interface. I cam across a few after doing a lot of research on interfaces. Basically, my needs are as follows:

1. No snazzy bit-depth, I could honestly probably do with 16, would prefer 24-bit, though.
2. Sample rate around 44.1kHz
3. At least 2 i/o
4. Something useful for bedroom recording.
5. Budget around $250, including second-hand products.

What I don't need:

1. It doesn't have to look good.
2. Please, no firewire. (I use Windows)

So the options I came across were:

1. Roland Duo Capture EX (or Quad Capture, thoughts on which one may be better?)
2. NI Komplete Audio 6
3. Focusrite 2i4
4. M-Audio M-Track Plus

I know, that's basically listing the most popular mid-range audio interfaces, but I listed them because those were the four (technically five) that I was *considering*. What I'd *like* to get, however, is the NI Komplete Audio 6.

I record guitar in my bedroom as I said before, so it really doesn't have to be anything grandiose or luxurious or expensive. I'm completely new to recording, I've only done a few demos with a computer mic, so it'll be a world of a difference recording with an AI. I plan on recording with a Shure SM57 with ASIO4ALL v2 drivers in FL Studio 12. I'll be running everything out into my Shure SE215's, which, I know, are not reference monitors or even close to studio-grade monitors at all, but they'll do the job for a newbie like me.

I plan on recording for some covers, maybe a few demo songs, instrumentals, etc., getting a feel for recording and producing myself, uploading them online, sharing them with friends, etc. I don't really plan to sell my recordings for money, so again, the AI doesn't have to be the best. Just something to start myself off with.

So let the debate begin.
*le me *le forum person
#3
The features you requested kinda give away the fact that you don't have a clue what you're talking about, you may wanna read the introduction to recording sticky to get a better idea of what's around there and what features one might want in one's situation.

I'd get a mackie onyx blackjack, or a roland duo capture ex if you also need midi i/o.

M audio interfaces in this price range and below top down suck, don't get any of these.
The quad capture has more i/o which in your situation you don't need and it has a gimmick "auto input gain" thing that I wouldn't use unless it was the only thing available.

If you wanna work with audio I'd reconsider using FL studio, it's only decent if you're working with midi and very limited for that kinda audio production you're thinking about.

PC's also can work with FW hardware, you simply need a FW card.
Name's Luca.

Quote by OliOsbourne
I don't know anything about this topic, but I just clicked on this thread because of your username :O
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Clue: amplifiers amplify so don't turn it on if you need quiet.
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#4
Yeah the times I've used FL Studio it hasn't been too great, but I've just gotten very familiar with it. I may start using Ableton instead since I had a somewhat better experience with just recording on it. I dunno.

I wouldn't say I'm *clueless* about what I'm getting. I have read the sticky, and it was really less help than anything I've ever read in my life, so I didn't exactly care for it. And I already know how adamant you are about your Mackie Onyx Blackjack, since I've come across you in the forums before. I have already decided against it (and the 2i2), and since I didn't even list them in the possible interface list, I have absolutely no idea why you or pkgitar would bring either one up.

And yeah, I'd rather set the sens myself, not have it go automatic. That's just stupid.

NOTE: I had a reason for putting the lists I did. That's because those are the criterion I have and the possible interfaces I was looking at. If I didn't list one that you want to put up, please, STAY AWAY.
*le me *le forum person
#5
i got the 2i4. its ok. its a bit noisy... hissy and shit.
FL....hmmmmzz i have friends who really like it but i don't get on with it
ableton is ok but i found it a bit annoying to edit with.

recording covers? why?
anyway ... enjoy.
#6
By recording covers I mean being able to record my guitar with something that will get the tone captured better than a camera mic. I do my darndest to try to replicate the tones of songs I cover, and I wouldn't want to waste any effort with a camera mic. IOW, it's just supposed to be able to somewhat reproduce the tone without too much distortion.

Yeah I wasn't sure that the 2i4 was any good. I hadn't ever really heard too much of good about the 2i2 (except that for beginners, it's okay).
*le me *le forum person
#8
Quote by uto998
I'm on the quest of finding a decent, well-constructed and mid-priced audio interface. I cam across a few after doing a lot of research on interfaces. Basically, my needs are as follows:

1. No snazzy bit-depth, I could honestly probably do with 16, would prefer 24-bit, though.
2. Sample rate around 44.1kHz
3. At least 2 i/o
4. Something useful for bedroom recording.
5. Budget around $250, including second-hand products.

What I don't need:

1. It doesn't have to look good.
2. Please, no firewire. (I use Windows)

So the options I came across were:

1. Roland Duo Capture EX (or Quad Capture, thoughts on which one may be better?)
2. NI Komplete Audio 6
3. Focusrite 2i4
4. M-Audio M-Track Plus

I know, that's basically listing the most popular mid-range audio interfaces, but I listed them because those were the four (technically five) that I was *considering*. What I'd *like* to get, however, is the NI Komplete Audio 6.

I record guitar in my bedroom as I said before, so it really doesn't have to be anything grandiose or luxurious or expensive. I'm completely new to recording, I've only done a few demos with a computer mic, so it'll be a world of a difference recording with an AI. I plan on recording with a Shure SM57 with ASIO4ALL v2 drivers in FL Studio 12. I'll be running everything out into my Shure SE215's, which, I know, are not reference monitors or even close to studio-grade monitors at all, but they'll do the job for a newbie like me.

I plan on recording for some covers, maybe a few demo songs, instrumentals, etc., getting a feel for recording and producing myself, uploading them online, sharing them with friends, etc. I don't really plan to sell my recordings for money, so again, the AI doesn't have to be the best. Just something to start myself off with.

So let the debate begin.


The Scarlett 2i4 is the best interface in your budget for recording guitars. It has the input pads so you're direct impulse signal from your guitar won't clip.

You won't be using Asio4All. You'll be using your audio interface's asio driver.

Quote by Spambot_2


If you wanna work with audio I'd reconsider using FL studio, it's only decent if you're working with midi and very limited for that kinda audio production you're thinking about.



More unsubstantiated rhetoric from Spambot_2.

I use FL Studio for tracking and working with audio myself. It doesn't do any worse than any other DAW for the application. If you can listen to a series of songs, some that were tracked into FL Studio and the others were tracked into Pro Tools, and you can honestly accurately and repeatedly tell which was tracked into which DAW, I would have to ask that you donate your body to science so that we can do some intense research on your sense of intuition.

The only differences between DAWs, in terms of how they process audio, is their summing algorithm and workflow in how they actually go about tracking. FL Studio is fine. I've been tracking with it for years.
Fender MIM Strat HSS (DiMarzio Crunch Lab)
Peavey 6505+ 112

If you want, I can mix/master your tracks for free just so I can practice and who knows, maybe you'll love what you hear! Hit me up.
#9
+1
I have used FL for about 15 years and is my Go To Daw for tracking drums, keys etc but that's because I know it backwards and like the midi layout. For tracking guitar I use a myriad of things but usually studio 1 with any one of 5 different interfaces. Depends what I have plugged in at the time. If I've been laying key tracks with KB37 I'll stick my guitar in that, if My R24 is plugged in I'll use that, if I've been messing with patches on my ME80 and it's still plugged in to PC I'll use that, it makes no real difference if you're using sims. Get the one you think looks coolest and will impress the girls, no one will know which one you used on a bedroom mix anyway.
My gastronomic rapacity knows no satiety.
#10
I put it there because that's what I recommend based on your description (not the alternatives, sorry haha). But the 2i4 is its slightly bigger brother, so it will be just as good only with a few added features.
So if I have to take a pick from your list, the 2i4 would be mine

A friend of mine has the Roland card and it's not a bad card.

Quote by vocoderboy
i got the 2i4. its ok. its a bit noisy... hissy and shit.


Then you must be doing something wrong. I've NEVER had a problem with my 3 year old 2i2. And I've used this almost every day since I got it. I also have the 18i20 and they are both amazing. The only time something didn't work was when I updated my Macs iOS to Mavericks. Just had to update the driver and it was back to perfect.
#11
I use an AKAI EIE PRO. I love it. it's good, quite a bit of I/O for it's size and does 96 Khz
Vintage V-100, EMG 81&60
Chapman ML-1

Jet City JCA20H
#12
Quote by uto998
I wouldn't say I'm *clueless* about what I'm getting.
Alright I'll be more specific.

1. you say you don't need "snazzy bit depth", and I didn't know what "snazzy" meant so I went with google's definition: "adjective, informal; stylish and attractive."

Going by that makes it seem like you think a resolution higher than 16bit is stylish and not really useful, which is deeeeply false 'cause higher resolution = a higher dynamic range to work with.
That is quite useful even if you're working with an audio interface with a pretty low s/n ratio because a bad quality interface will have a s/n ration of about 97dB, when a good one will have an s/n ration of more than 120dB.

The maximum theoretical dynamic range achievable with 16bit is 96dB, which in reality is more like 90dB, which means that even if you have a noisy audio interface you're cutting around 7dB of usable dynamic range, when in general you're cutting around 15dB because common audio interfaces don't suck that much.

With 24bit you have 144dB of dynamic range, which in reality are around 136dB, and you'll need to spend a hell of a lot of money to find a signal chain with so low self noise.

So 24dB are something you do want, considering most interfaces nowadays have that capability, especially when tracking 'cause unless the stuff you're recording is pretty lacking in dynamics you're gonna find yourself needing more headroom.

2. this equals going to an automobile dealership and asking for a car that has at least one seatbelt.
Not like there's anything wrong, but if you've had a look at any audio interface designed and produced in the last 30 or so years you'll not find one that doesn't allow for a 44.1kHz sampling rate.

3. I suppose by "at lease 2 i/o" you mean you want at least a pair of line + hi-z inputs.

What you asked tho is at least 2 input output, which might well mean you need a pair of RCA inputs and a pair of outputs, so reading that one might advise you to buy a behringer UCA202 'cause that does, in fact, have all the features you requested there.

4. now this is like going back to that automobile dealership and asking for a car that is good for traveling in France - there's nothing special about bedroom recording nor the roads in France, so you may wanna specify how many tracks you'll be recording at a time, if you'll be going off road, what inputs you need exactly, what time of the year you'll be going to France...

Something that actually tells us what you'll be doing with it, so we can advise you with something that's capable of doing it good enough, instead of telling us where you'll be recording.

Then about what you don't need,

1. well you should have at least provided us with a list of what looks good to you

2. again, this PC I'm writing on has two FW HDD's connected as I'm typing, and you can add a FW port just like you would add any other PCIe card.

If you have a desktop computer, that is.

Then about what you've looked at,
if you don't have a clue what you need between the duo capture ex and a quad capture then you quite literally don't know what you're looking for.

Also if you would like to get a komplete 6, get one and be done with it since it seems that you don't like half of the advice that's been given to you.
Quote by uto998
I have read the sticky, and it was really less help than anything I've ever read in my life, so I didn't exactly care for it.
You might also find a textbook about electronics to be among the most unhelpful things you've read, though I'd advocate it's just because you don't wanna put enough effort in it to understand what's written in it exactly and how it is helpful.
Quote by uto998
I have already decided against it (and the 2i2)
Go listening to every possibility before ruling it out.

That's how I see it at least.
Quote by uto998
NOTE: I had a reason for putting the lists I did. That's because those are the criterion I have and the possible interfaces I was looking at.
Also a shit ton of other interfaces are in your budget and satisfy the criteria you listed.

Why aren't you interested in those is beyond me, but it seems that you know enough already to decide for yourself.
Quote by uto998
If I didn't list one that you want to put up, please, STAY AWAY.
If you don't want advice, please, stay away.

What you're saying here is that you want something, you're asking if something else among something you listed might be better, and you don't want to consider that somebody else may be more experienced about what is best for you to get when you're, in fact, asking what'd be best for you to get.
Quote by BV-95
The Scarlett 2i4 is the best interface in your budget for recording guitars. It has the input pads so you're direct impulse signal from your guitar won't clip.
The 2i4 isn't the best in that price range for anything.
It's not even a matter of features, it's a matter of how it sounds.

Actually if you wanna take a look at the quantity of i/o it wins because it has RCA i/o and midi over the blackjack, which may indeed be useful for somebody.
If you take a look at the specs tho it's a massacre - the blackjack has 12dB more in both input and output full path, less self noise, less THD, more input gain (the 2i4 can't, for example, drive an SM7 for shit), and a hell of a lot more powerful headphones amp, 'cause a quarter of the can's I've worked with have an input impedance too high and a sensitivity too low to be driven by a bus powered scarlett.

But for the discussion's sake, have a listen to both before coming back on the topic.
Quote by BV-95
I use FL Studio for tracking and working with audio myself. It doesn't do any worse than any other DAW for the application.
If you're tracking only everything's good enough.
If you're working, it depends how you're working really.

I'm talking automation modes, VCA faders, track groups and sub-groups, in depth midi routing and scripting...
Quote by BV-95
If you can listen to a series of songs, some that were tracked into FL Studio and the others were tracked into Pro Tools, and you can honestly accurately and repeatedly tell which was tracked into which DAW, I would have to ask that you donate your body to science so that we can do some intense research on your sense of intuition.
I'm with you on this, but if you dare thinking you can do the same amount of work (mixing a 24 tracks song for example, all tracks dry) and produce the same result using FL studio and, say, reaper/studio one/logic/pro tools/bitwig, then you're lying to yourself.

Plus the stability, oh the stability...
Quote by BV-95
The only differences between DAWs, in terms of how they process audio, is their summing algorithm and workflow in how they actually go about tracking. FL Studio is fine.
There's no magic about summing, it's just mathematics, so DAW's don't even differ there (even if they try to make you think their "audio engine" is better, which may be true but doesn't have to do with how stuff sounds), but the workflow is not limited to tracking, and there are things that you can't do, end of the story.
Quote by pkgitar
Then you must be doing something wrong. I've NEVER had a problem with my 3 year old 2i2.
You don't really have to be doing something particular with it, that's how it sounds.
If for you it's good enough then good for you, different gear works for different joe's.
Quote by BV-95
More unsubstantiated rhetoric from Spambot_2.
Here's the substance we discussed about last week - http://kiwi6.com/file/8osozo9ton
Name's Luca.

Quote by OliOsbourne
I don't know anything about this topic, but I just clicked on this thread because of your username :O
Quote by Cajundaddy
Clue: amplifiers amplify so don't turn it on if you need quiet.
Quote by chrismendiola
I guess spambots are now capable of reading minds.
#13
Quote by BV-95
The Scarlett 2i4 is the best interface in your budget for recording guitars. It has the input pads so you're direct impulse signal from your guitar won't clip.

Well there's a sweeping statement if I ever saw one. It also indicates a relative lack of understanding of a few things.

1. The input pads are only a problem because the inputs on the scarlett series are quite hot, and even with the gain turned all the way down they often clip. Any other interface may or may not require those pads, because they have different preamps that may not run quite as hot as the scarletts.

2. Whilst technically you could use a guitar DI track as an impulse, that's not really the right term. An impulse is (supposed to be) an audio sweep across a set of frequencies (usually 20-20k) which the computer uses to determine which frequencies should be louder and which should be softer to emulate the sound of playing back through the impulse source.

Quote by BV-95
More unsubstantiated rhetoric from Spambot_2.

Luca knows his stuff. He's a bit of a dick when it comes to the scarlett series, but don't discredit everything he says based off that.

Oh and just a note, I'm actually a fan of the scarlett series. I use a 2i4 myself and swear by it but to jump to it's defense so aggressively is a bit silly.


Quote by uto998
I'm on the quest of finding a decent, well-constructed and mid-priced audio interface. I cam across a few after doing a lot of research on interfaces. Basically, my needs are as follows:

1. No snazzy bit-depth, I could honestly probably do with 16, would prefer 24-bit, though.
2. Sample rate around 44.1kHz
3. At least 2 i/o
4. Something useful for bedroom recording.
5. Budget around $250, including second-hand products.

What I don't need:

1. It doesn't have to look good.
2. Please, no firewire. (I use Windows)

So basically, what you need is an interface that basically fits the criteria we used when the sticky was written?

Quote by uto998
I record guitar in my bedroom as I said before, so it really doesn't have to be anything grandiose or luxurious or expensive. I'm completely new to recording, I've only done a few demos with a computer mic, so it'll be a world of a difference recording with an AI. I plan on recording with a Shure SM57 with ASIO4ALL v2 drivers in FL Studio 12. I'll be running everything out into my Shure SE215's, which, I know, are not reference monitors or even close to studio-grade monitors at all, but they'll do the job for a newbie like me.

You won't be using ASIO4ALL unless you're 1. an idiot, or 2. trying to do something stupid like chain multiple different brands/models of interfaces together.

Quote by uto998
I have read the sticky, and it was really less help than anything I've ever read in my life, so I didn't exactly care for it.

Wow... Let me just paraphrase a bit to explain what you just said back to you.

Quote by pseudo-uto998
I have read the collective opinions of all the experienced forum members here on what the best interfaces that fit my criteria are. It wasn't the one I'm secretly gunning for in my head so I've decided to ignore it because obviously no-one who was involved in making it has any idea about beginner recording

Seriously, there was a lot of time and effort gone into that thread and in general if you post an interfaces thread here all you'll get (and all you've gotten) is a much flame-war-like version of the same information.
#14
Look into Presonus range, it cones with Studio one software which is probably a step up for most of these in terms of package.
There are some recording bundles that might let you maximize the gear you need.

Out of the bunch you posted, definite no on M Audio, the rest is OK.


BTW, I run FireWire on 2 Windows machines :-)


I'm kinda late in the game, but someone threw in bunch of technical info that can do only one thing: confuse OP.

All the audio cards mentioned can do 24bit at 44.1 kHz and even up which rarely needed. I track at 24/44 and so far no one has complained. When I worked in a studio we tracked 24/48 mostly but sometimes 24/96 which was a mess and the final recording wasn't infinitesimally better, most times actually the same but put a bigger load on the system. So for simplicity sake -24/44 is definitely good enough.
Last edited by diabolical at May 4, 2015,
#15
Spambot_2, I didn't ask you (nor want you) to expound on my apparent indifference to everyone's (your) input. Sorry I stepped on your toes, maybe you could show me the grace you haven't yet and forgive my faux-pas. In case you didn't realize, that last sentence was SARCASTIC. Go look up that word on Google since you don't have such a big vocabulary as others.

chatterbox272, please, don't put words into my mouth that aren't there. I'm terribly sorry that I have a choice that I think is good, would like to discuss, and can't seem to get any input about. I'm open to other options, and if pleases everyone else, I am open to discussion about other interfaces. Terribly sorry for not knowing that I won't be using ASIO4ALL, I got that confused with the asio drivers in a few of interfaces. Like I said, I'm a newb, maybe not a god of knowledge on the subject, but not clueless.

diabolical, advice is always welcome, no matter how late it is.

SquierLolz, awesome, I'll look into it!

I don't understand why people think I have my mind made up against all other interfaces. Sorry I put in a solitary lone sentence about liking to get the NI Komplete. I guess I can't have an opinion of my own. I guess I have to swallow Luca's or chatterbox's opinions or just be a total idiot.

To everyone, I actually would like to recant about not wanting to discuss other interfaces. That was rather repulsive, I suppose.
*le me *le forum person
#16
Quote by chatterbox272

Well there's a sweeping statement if I ever saw one. It also indicates a relative lack of understanding of a few things.

1. The input pads are only a problem because the inputs on the scarlett series are quite hot, and even with the gain turned all the way down they often clip. Any other interface may or may not require those pads, because they have different preamps that may not run quite as hot as the scarletts.

2. Whilst technically you could use a guitar DI track as an impulse, that's not really the right term. An impulse is (supposed to be) an audio sweep across a set of frequencies (usually 20-20k) which the computer uses to determine which frequencies should be louder and which should be softer to emulate the sound of playing back through the impulse source.


Luca knows his stuff. He's a bit of a dick when it comes to the scarlett series, but don't discredit everything he says based off that.

Oh and just a note, I'm actually a fan of the scarlett series. I use a 2i4 myself and swear by it but to jump to it's defense so aggressively is a bit silly.




You're correct; direct injection is the term I was thinking of. My apologies.

And, in my opinion, the 2i4 is the best choice. Sorry that I didn't say "in my opinion" but I don't really think that that is necessary. If its coming out of my mouth, its obviously my opinion.

I've had other discussions with him where he just spews non-sense. In another thread he discredited youtubers (like Keith Merrow and Ryan Brace) reviews of amp sims like Bias and EZMix, claiming that they used post-processing to make the amp sims sound better, even with the youtubers themselves said that they didn't. He of course just accused them of lying with absolutely no objective evidence to make that claim. Then, I posted a shitty guitar tone and asked him to make it sound better with post processing (he posted the link to his results in this thread actually), and IMO, it still sounds like ass, proving my point that no amount of post-processing can make bad tone sound good. If it could, John Petrucci would use a Line 6 Spider III in the studio and just have the engineer make it sound good.
Fender MIM Strat HSS (DiMarzio Crunch Lab)
Peavey 6505+ 112

If you want, I can mix/master your tracks for free just so I can practice and who knows, maybe you'll love what you hear! Hit me up.
#17
I wouldn't discredit the fact that it is quite likely a lot of these youtube sounds are touched up to make them sound better. Hell, just running the whole thing through a high end mastering rig will make a lot of these sound a lot better, I've personally have been present on a mixing session where a dead sounding sh*tty Digitech box was put through a high end chain which made the thing actually sound good.
#18
Quote by diabolical
I wouldn't discredit the fact that it is quite likely a lot of these youtube sounds are touched up to make them sound better. Hell, just running the whole thing through a high end mastering rig will make a lot of these sound a lot better, I've personally have been present on a mixing session where a dead sounding sh*tty Digitech box was put through a high end chain which made the thing actually sound good.



Well of course the tracks are mixed and mastered, but ALL music that we listen to is mixed and mastered, whether the original guitar track tone was a real amp or an amp sim.


Could I argue that John Petrucci's tone is unrealistic of a Mark V because his music is mixed and mastered?

EDIT:

mixing and mastering isn't what I meant by post-processing. Post-processing, to me, would be things like pitch correction, time alignment, FL Studio's "Soundgoodizer" plugin (lol), et cetera.
Fender MIM Strat HSS (DiMarzio Crunch Lab)
Peavey 6505+ 112

If you want, I can mix/master your tracks for free just so I can practice and who knows, maybe you'll love what you hear! Hit me up.
Last edited by BV-95 at May 5, 2015,
#19
Quote by BV-95



Could I argue that John Petrucci's tone is unrealistic of a Mark V because his music is mixed and mastered?


I guess you could say that. This is something a lot of people don't understand and they expect to buy John's guitar and Mark V and instantly sound like him on record, unaware of this whole other chain of say AKG C414 and Royer ribbon, put through a Neve desk, compressed with such and such and then run through $20k per channel converters, then mastered on a $2mil. mastering facility
#20
Quote by uto998
Spambot_2, I didn't ask you (nor want you) to expound on my apparent indifference to everyone's (your) input.
You asked for advice and I'm giving advice.

If you don't want advice, don't ask for advice, end of the story.
Quote by uto998
In case you didn't realize, that last sentence was SARCASTIC. Go look up that word on Google since you don't have such a big vocabulary as others.
I still know the commonly used words in english, but thanks.

Also if we wanna have a look into that, the plural of "criterion" is "criteria"
You may wanna look up that word on Google since you don't have such a big vocabulary as others.
Quote by uto998
I'm terribly sorry that I have a choice that I think is good, would like to discuss, and can't seem to get any input about.
We elaborated on why other choices would be better.

If you don't want to take any advice that implies that your opinion wasn't spot on then stop posting here.
Or exchanging opinions with other people
Quote by uto998
I'm open to other options, and if pleases everyone else, I am open to discussion about other interfaces.
Quote by uto998
I had a reason for putting the lists I did. That's because those are the criterion I have and the possible interfaces I was looking at. If I didn't list one that you want to put up, please, STAY AWAY.
Quote by uto998
I don't understand why people think I have my mind made up against all other interfaces
Please tell me what I'm missing 'cause I'm obviously missing something.
Quote by uto998
Sorry I put in a solitary lone sentence about liking to get the NI Komplete.
If you want it you must have reasons for wanting it, even if you only like how it looks and/or the reviews it's getting and/or you like native instruments and you don't wanna admit it.

Or possibly you have listened to it and you like it for the sound, I really don't know.

Fact is, you can't expect other people to agree with your opinion if you don't give them reasons to, and you can't expect others not to back their own opinions with reasons.
Quote by uto998
I guess I have to swallow Luca's or chatterbox's opinions or just be a total idiot.
We showed you a lot of reasons for which our suggestions would be better than what you had in mind.

If you don't like our reasons then get an NI komplete and be happy with it.
Quote by BV-95
He of course just accused them of lying with absolutely no objective evidence to make that claim.
Again, you as well have no objective evidence to claim they aren't lying, and we can all agree there's more than one reason why they might actually lie.
Quote by BV-95
Then, I posted a shitty guitar tone and asked him to make it sound better with post processing (he posted the link to his results in this thread actually), and IMO, it still sounds like ass, proving my point that no amount of post-processing can make bad tone sound good.
Doesn't sound that good of course, but it sounds usable at least, and claiming the opposite would really only show that you'd contradict me no matter what.

if I can make that change in an hour with an old macbook, a single track with a shit sound and a shit playing with post-processing applied already, you think anyone with a clue can't turn an already usable, if not much good, tone (also being able to do double tracking, first hand processing...) in something that sound pretty good in a mix?
Quote by BV-95
If it could, John Petrucci would use a Line 6 Spider III in the studio and just have the engineer make it sound good.
Why would he, when he could just start from a better source?

Why did, taking one of your beloved youtube guitarists as an example once again, Ola record his albums spending so much money on amps when he managed to make an MG15 sound fairly good?

It's a hell of a lot less time consuming, a hell of a lot easier, and it sounds potentially better.
Quote by BV-95
Could I argue that John Petrucci's tone is unrealistic of a Mark V because his music is mixed and mastered?
Of course.

Not only because of mixing and mastering tho - as diabolical explained, there are other factors involved, and there's a hell of a lot of people around that get this particular amp that their favorite guitarist have and then wonder why they can't sound as good as that part/song/album.
Quote by BV-95
mixing and mastering isn't what I meant by post-processing. Post-processing, to me, would be things like pitch correction, time alignment, FL Studio's "Soundgoodizer" plugin (lol), et cetera.
Good thing we cleared that.

So yeah, now you as well agree these guitarists might be using post processing, in the sense that they are in any way processing what they have recorded already?
Quote by diabolical
unaware of this whole other chain of say AKG C414 and Royer ribbon, put through a Neve desk, compressed with such and such and then run through $20k per channel converters, then mastered on a $2mil. mastering facility
Doesn't even need to be that drastic - people get an amp and a 57, then record their tone and wonder why it doesn't sound like what they're hearing in the room.
Name's Luca.

Quote by OliOsbourne
I don't know anything about this topic, but I just clicked on this thread because of your username :O
Quote by Cajundaddy
Clue: amplifiers amplify so don't turn it on if you need quiet.
Quote by chrismendiola
I guess spambots are now capable of reading minds.
#21
Quote by diabolical
I guess you could say that. This is something a lot of people don't understand and they expect to buy John's guitar and Mark V and instantly sound like him on record, unaware of this whole other chain of say AKG C414 and Royer ribbon, put through a Neve desk, compressed with such and such and then run through $20k per channel converters, then mastered on a $2mil. mastering facility


Then you know what; tone chasing is ****ing pointless. Just pay an amazing engineer to make you sound good. GG&A is useless.
Fender MIM Strat HSS (DiMarzio Crunch Lab)
Peavey 6505+ 112

If you want, I can mix/master your tracks for free just so I can practice and who knows, maybe you'll love what you hear! Hit me up.
#22
Quote by BV-95
Then you know what; tone chasing is ****ing pointless. Just pay an amazing engineer to make you sound good. GG&A is useless.


Where did I say that?

I just said that your guitar rig is only part of the equation.
#23
Quote by BV-95
Then you know what; tone chasing is ****ing pointless.

Correct, it is completely impossible to sound identical to any source unless you have the same gear (not just model, but physical piece because they're all slightly different), in an acoustically identical space (i.e. the same one, with gear and people placed in the same location), played identically (including attack strength and speed), and under the same processing.
Using other tones to compare is a great way to work out what you want in a sound and to get there, but chasing an identical tone is a waste of time and effort.

Quote by BV-95
Just pay an amazing engineer to make you sound good.

An engineer capable of making most terrible sources sound great has plenty of work and won't be willing to spend the time and effort making a crappy source good.
Quote by BV-95
GG&A is useless.

Not at all, firstly GG&A (if I remember correctly) mostly deals in getting live sounds which is a completely different matter to recorded sounds. Secondly, last I was there no-one ever claimed to be able to make crappy sources sound perfect, ESPECIALLY not live.


Quote by uto998
chatterbox272, please, don't put words into my mouth that aren't there. I'm terribly sorry that I have a choice that I think is good, would like to discuss, and can't seem to get any input about. I'm open to other options, and if pleases everyone else, I am open to discussion about other interfaces. Terribly sorry for not knowing that I won't be using ASIO4ALL, I got that confused with the asio drivers in a few of interfaces. Like I said, I'm a newb, maybe not a god of knowledge on the subject, but not clueless.

The ASIO4ALL thing was a tad agressive, I probably could've put it nicer . You're getting plenty of input "there are better options", you just don't appear to like it. The bit that seems odd is you've come to a subforum and asked the question that the sticky was designed to answer, and you're acting all surprised that most of the responses are to get what was recommended in the sticky.

So here's a bit of a clearer (hopefully nicer) answer to your question. To my knowledge, no-one here (certainly no regulars) has much experience with the NI interfaces. We have extensive knowledge of the Scarlett series and the Blackjack, and depending on which specific forum member you ask most of us would recommend one or the other in your price bracket. Firstly, because we know exactly how the scarlett/blackjack sounds we know it's good and feel comfortable recommending it. Secondly, both of them are made by companies that deal primarily in audio hardware (Focusrite and Mackie), whereas NI deals primarily in software and the Komplete Audio 6 seems primarily like a hardware device they're using to help push their software (because now it's self-contained and you don't need extra hardware). Most of the time, products like this are pretty average compared to those made by companies dedicated to that area. Not always, but without direct experience this isn't a bad assumption to make.
#24
The Komplete Audio 6 might actually be OK, they made it look sturdy and it looks like it won't have the signal clipping issues as show by the Scarlett series.
Personally, I feel this forum leans very heavily on users to get Focusrite and it is usually the opinion of people that haven't tried much from the competition.
#25
Quote by Spambot_2
You might also find a textbook about electronics to be among the most unhelpful things you've read, though I'd advocate it's just because you don't wanna put enough effort in it to understand what's written in it exactly and how it is helpful.


Or I didn't find it helpful.

Quote by Spambot_2
You asked for advice and I'm giving advice.

If you don't want advice, don't ask for advice, end of the story.


Is that what you call it? Advice? As in, "go ahead to a car dealership and get you a car with one seatbelt, cause there's really nothin' wrong with that!" That's some real, quality advice there. Or telling me a butt load of crap that I don't need to know about "theoretical dynamic range", etc etc. Or trying to go further into 2 i/o than it has to go. You know what it means, even if you won't admit it to yourself. What does i/o stand for? Input/output. So 2 inputs, and 2 outputs. Or trying to tell me that I didn't tell anybody what I was using it for, when I did, and instead of just asking me again, you take the opportunity to bash me.

In fact, I will stop asking for advice, or at least from you, so please, just leave this thread.

Quote by Spambot_2


We elaborated on why other choices would be better.

If you don't want to take any advice that implies that your opinion wasn't spot on then stop posting here.
Or exchanging opinions with other people



So clearly, another misunderstanding on your part (surprise, surprise). How about, I want to ask a question about one interface, since I'm interested in it.

Quote by Spambot_2

Please tell me what I'm missing 'cause I'm obviously missing something.


There's this saying and it goes something like this: "A text without context is a pretext for whatever you want." Please take the time to read everything I said, or I would just say, you don't want to put the time and effort into understanding it all.

Allow me to provide context for you:

Quote by uto998

I wouldn't say I'm *clueless* about what I'm getting. I have read the sticky, and it was really less help than anything I've ever read in my life, so I didn't exactly care for it. And I already know how adamant you are about your Mackie Onyx Blackjack, since I've come across you in the forums before. I have already decided against it (and the 2i2), and since I didn't even list them in the possible interface list, I have absolutely no idea why you or pkgitar would bring either one up.
...
NOTE: I had a reason for putting the lists I did. That's because those are the criterion I have and the possible interfaces I was looking at. If I didn't list one that you want to put up, please, STAY AWAY.
...
chatterbox272, please, don't put words into my mouth that aren't there. I'm terribly sorry that I have a choice that I think is good, would like to discuss, and can't seem to get any input about. I'm open to other options, and if pleases everyone else, I am open to discussion about other interfaces. Terribly sorry for not knowing that I won't be using ASIO4ALL, I got that confused with the asio drivers in a few of interfaces. Like I said, I'm a newb, maybe not a god of knowledge on the subject, but not clueless.
...
I don't understand why people think I have my mind made up against all other interfaces. Sorry I put in a solitary lone sentence about liking to get the NI Komplete. I guess I can't have an opinion of my own. I guess I have to swallow Luca's or chatterbox's opinions or just be a total idiot.

To everyone, I actually would like to recant about not wanting to discuss other interfaces. That was rather repulsive, I suppose.


As you can see from the first paragraph, I have an idea of what I want and I know what I don't want, because I have done some fairly extensive research into it. In fact, I have asked other people who have used products like the 2i2 and blackjack about how they liked them. Did they? No.

As you can see from the second paragraph, I'm trying to keep people like you from making this thread chase bunnies on other interfaces. When I recognized the caveat (in the last paragraph), I recanted from that.

As you can see from the third and fourth paragraphs, I would like to ask a question about the NI, and if it sucks, explain why and just move on with it. Or just grill me, I guess.

Does that help?

Quote by Spambot_2

If you want it you must have reasons for wanting it, even if you only like how it looks and/or the reviews it's getting and/or you like native instruments and you don't wanna admit it.

Or possibly you have listened to it and you like it for the sound, I really don't know.

Fact is, you can't expect other people to agree with your opinion if you don't give them reasons to, and you can't expect others not to back their own opinions with reasons.



I'm not trying to get people to swallow my opinion that the NI may be a potentially good interface (like that's even a good opinion). I'm trying to ask if I should waste my time looking into it. And again, you gave no help. Yeah I obviously have reasons for wanting to get it, because it seems to be just as good as the others with an upside or two, but if it sucks, tell me *why* it sucks.

Quote by Spambot_2

We showed you a lot of reasons for which our suggestions would be better than what you had in mind.
If you don't like our reasons then get an NI komplete and be happy with it.


I'm sorry, did I miss something? I didn't notice where you told me why I should get something over the NI.


Quote by chatterbox272
Correct, it is completely impossible to sound identical to any source unless you have the same gear (not just model, but physical piece because they're all slightly different), in an acoustically identical space (i.e. the same one, with gear and people placed in the same location), played identically (including attack strength and speed), and under the same processing.
Using other tones to compare is a great way to work out what you want in a sound and to get there, but chasing an identical tone is a waste of time and effort.


That's why tone chasing isn't about completely replicating tone, it's about trying to get pretty darn close and learn *how* they got the tone, and *why* it works, and what makes it better than another tone.

Quote by chatterbox272
The ASIO4ALL thing was a tad agressive, I probably could've put it nicer . You're getting plenty of input "there are better options", you just don't appear to like it. The bit that seems odd is you've come to a subforum and asked the question that the sticky was designed to answer, and you're acting all surprised that most of the responses are to get what was recommended in the sticky.

So here's a bit of a clearer (hopefully nicer) answer to your question. To my knowledge, no-one here (certainly no regulars) has much experience with the NI interfaces. We have extensive knowledge of the Scarlett series and the Blackjack, and depending on which specific forum member you ask most of us would recommend one or the other in your price bracket. Firstly, because we know exactly how the scarlett/blackjack sounds we know it's good and feel comfortable recommending it. Secondly, both of them are made by companies that deal primarily in audio hardware (Focusrite and Mackie), whereas NI deals primarily in software and the Komplete Audio 6 seems primarily like a hardware device they're using to help push their software (because now it's self-contained and you don't need extra hardware). Most of the time, products like this are pretty average compared to those made by companies dedicated to that area. Not always, but without direct experience this isn't a bad assumption to make.


It isn't that I don't like it, it's that I'd like to get one thing out of the way before moving on to others. Your reply did help, and it really changed my mind against the NI to a degree. If there is a solitary thing that Luca says that I agree with, it's listen to it before you discount it. Also, it's not that I'm surprised that everyone is recommending what's on the sticky, I wanted to ask about other options that the sticky didn't mention (as much).

Finally, someone who gets the question. That was actually very informative and helpful, thanks!
*le me *le forum person
#26
I'd suggest you just get the NI from a store with good return policy in case you don't like it.
I'm personally happy with Presonus as I've worked and done quite a few installations on their product.
I've worked with Edirol (now Cakewalk) interfaces and am not crazy about them, although I still have travel setup around one. M-Audio has been a nightmare, sold it to a friend that has been happy with it (Delta1010). Another M-Audio card that I gave to a friend has been pretty bad with lots of latency and buggy drivers.

The thing I don't like about NIs card is that you don't know their commitment. I bought Terratec mastering interface a while back and they pretty much closed shop soon after, so it hasn't been well supported as some of the other.

I have some NI products, their software, and it is OK. Cubase LE is not bad unless you have to rely on tech support at which point it pretty much becomes abandonware.
Focusrite has Ableton Le which is even worse IMO, you'd have to get another DAW.

This forum seems to be Focurite centric for sure, but I think for the most part unless you go upwards of $500 you'd rarely see much difference.
#27
Quote by diabolical
I'd suggest you just get the NI from a store with good return policy in case you don't like it.
I'm personally happy with Presonus as I've worked and done quite a few installations on their product.
I've worked with Edirol (now Cakewalk) interfaces and am not crazy about them, although I still have travel setup around one. M-Audio has been a nightmare, sold it to a friend that has been happy with it (Delta1010). Another M-Audio card that I gave to a friend has been pretty bad with lots of latency and buggy drivers.

The thing I don't like about NIs card is that you don't know their commitment. I bought Terratec mastering interface a while back and they pretty much closed shop soon after, so it hasn't been well supported as some of the other.

I have some NI products, their software, and it is OK. Cubase LE is not bad unless you have to rely on tech support at which point it pretty much becomes abandonware.
Focusrite has Ableton Le which is even worse IMO, you'd have to get another DAW.

This forum seems to be Focurite centric for sure, but I think for the most part unless you go upwards of $500 you'd rarely see much difference.


Okay so four questions:
1. Which Presonus interface are you using?
2. Do you have any demos up on youtube or UG that I may be able to listen to?
3. Do you like Studio1 (if your PS interface comes with it)?
4. And were you saying that there would not be much of a difference in the Focusrite and NI unless I go up about $500, or the Focusrite and any other interface (that we discussed)?

Thanks a bunch for the explanation!
*le me *le forum person
#28
Quote by uto998
Is that what you call it? Advice? As in, "go ahead to a car dealership and get you a car with one seatbelt, cause there's really nothin' wrong with that!"
That (the original one, not what you wrote) was a metaphor to make you understand that every interface you might get will have an input sampling rate of at least 44.1kHz, so there was no reason to put it in the requirements.
Quote by uto998
Or telling me a butt load of crap that I don't need to know about "theoretical dynamic range", etc etc.
If you think that was crap and you don't need to know about dynamic range I don't have anything to add.

I'll sum it up in a simpler way to you tho, for clarity's sake:
you want an interface with 24bit converters, at least in the input stage, 'cause that way you'll be using all of the dynamic range that the rest of the circuit can provide, and there's no reason to want an interface with 16bit converters if you want a good result.

Again, if you think you don't need dynamic range, then I don't have anything to add to that either.
Quote by uto998
Or trying to go further into 2 i/o than it has to go. You know what it means, even if you won't admit it to yourself.
As I wrote before, I supposed you meant what you actually meant, but being clear can only help you, and again, don't be surprised nor offended if someone corrects you.
Quote by uto998
What does i/o stand for? Input/output. So 2 inputs, and 2 outputs.
Or trying to tell me that I didn't tell anybody what I was using it for, when I did, and instead of just asking me again, you take the opportunity to bash me.
Yes, 2 ins and 2 outs.

Or 1 in and 1 out since you wrote you want to record a single channel and you may be using headphones for monitoring.
Or 2 ins, 'cause you may wanna use the output from your sound card.

Wanting to be pedant, 2 i/o means two inputs/outputs, so two between inputs and outputs.
We all though did get what you meant and advised you accordingly.
Quote by uto998
So clearly, another misunderstanding on your part (surprise, surprise). How about, I want to ask a question about one interface, since I'm interested in it.
You didn't ask anything about the komplete, you wrote that you would like to get it.

Also you asked which interface would have been best for your situation.
Again, we advised you accordingly.
Quote by uto998
As you can see from the first paragraph, I have an idea of what I want and I know what I don't want, because I have done some fairly extensive research into it.
You either want or don't want advice.

You say you do, but you act like you don't.
Please decide.

Be advised that advice might not go well with what you've researched.
Quote by uto998
In fact, I have asked other people who have used products like the 2i2 and blackjack about how they liked them. Did they? No.
Then go asking them what they thought of the komplete or the other interfaces you listed.

If you're not making that up just to prove my point wrong, that is.
Quote by uto998
As you can see from the second paragraph, I'm trying to keep people like you from making this thread chase bunnies on other interfaces.
You know what you want?
Good, get it!

You're not sure?
Allright, take our advice.

You can't choose any combination of the former two options.
Quote by uto998
As you can see from the third and fourth paragraphs, I would like to ask a question about the NI, and if it sucks, explain why and just move on with it. Or just grill me, I guess.

Does that help?
Yes it does, thanks for clarifying.

I have not heard one in person, I've only looked at the specs and listened to some demos.

The specs look bad as hell, about as bad as the fast track (which I know by practical experience to sound top down bad): dynamic range is less than 100dB for the inputs and only 102dB for the outputs, it has veeery little input gain on mic inputs, so low that you'll not get any decent recording out of a 57 unless you're putting it close a loud source (which you will if you'll be recording your amp, but if you gotta record percussions or your voice or an acoustic guitar the results will be less than idea 'cause you'll either be full of pops and proximity effect or you'll get very low levels), more than 0.01% THD at who knows what input level for every input.

Also NI hardware is famous to be built pretty cheaply and not to be able to endure more than some carrying around, and I'm guessing this one is no exception.
Quote by uto998
I'm sorry, did I miss something? I didn't notice where you told me why I should get something over the NI.
We all gave you good reasons to get stuff over other stuff or stuff in general.

We didn't even refer to the komplete because of both lack of extensive experience and the fact that we felt these reasons were good enough.
Quote by uto998
4. And were you saying that there would not be much of a difference in the Focusrite and NI unless I go up about $500, or the Focusrite and any other interface (that we discussed)?
That's what he wrote and I disagree.

Of course, one might not have an experienced or good ear, but even a mild difference is obvious if you look around, and to others the difference is quite big even between three interfaces all costing around $150.
Name's Luca.

Quote by OliOsbourne
I don't know anything about this topic, but I just clicked on this thread because of your username :O
Quote by Cajundaddy
Clue: amplifiers amplify so don't turn it on if you need quiet.
Quote by chrismendiola
I guess spambots are now capable of reading minds.
Last edited by Spambot_2 at May 6, 2015,
#30
^ thanks for your contribution to the discussion as well
Name's Luca.

Quote by OliOsbourne
I don't know anything about this topic, but I just clicked on this thread because of your username :O
Quote by Cajundaddy
Clue: amplifiers amplify so don't turn it on if you need quiet.
Quote by chrismendiola
I guess spambots are now capable of reading minds.
#32
I love how Luca just so cleverly avoided the part where I said go away. I would actually take vocoderboy's reply as a contribution to the thread, since he's not as much a ****** like Luca.
*le me *le forum person
#33
Quote by uto998
I love how Luca just so cleverly avoided the part where I said go away. I would actually take vocoderboy's reply as a contribution to the thread, since he's not as much a ****** like Luca.

Moral of the story: you're probably not going to find a sufficient answer to your question on this particular forum.

Bonus advice: buy whatever your gut tells you to from a place with a good return policy.
Telecaster - SG - Jaguar
Princeton Reverb, Extra Reverb
P-Bass - Mustang Bass
Apogee Duet 2 - Ableton Suite
#34
don't discount luca's opinion he is one of the very few members here who keeps this part of the site alive.

we are all entitled to our opinions, unfortunately its easier to read aggression on the net rather than quiet advice.

also with my 2i4 i've plugged it in to my computer with nothing other than the interface>usb cable>computer and have registered noise. the usb was the one that came in the box.
sometimes its noisy sometimes its not.

i've also had an Mbox 2 which whilst not noisy had really bad preamps in it.
its up to you to do the comparisons to find whats best for you. we can only offer advice based on experience.
#35
Quote by uto998

1. Which Presonus interface are you using?

Firepod, also known as FP10. I've recorded with pretty much everything else in their product range, Firestudio, Firestudio Tube. Their preamps are pretty much identical (XMAX), clean sounding which is what you need in that range unless we are talking the FS Tube which actually had two tube channels and was a very interesting concept.

Quote by uto998

2. Do you have any demos up on youtube or UG that I may be able to listen to?

Follow the links in my sig.

Quote by uto998

3. Do you like Studio1 (if your PS interface comes with it)?


One of my favorite DAWs, if not the ONE. I've worked in Pro Tools in pro studio, have/had worked Cubase, Sonar, Reaper, Tracktion, Ableton, Digital Performer, Acid, Logic, Mixcraft, Nuendo and I for the most part now prefer S1 over all of them.

Honestly, really loved Digital Performer on Mac but I am out of the Mac world for the moment.

Only thing I don't like in S1 is the fact that it doesn't have music notation option and when you work in midi it is a pain sometimes. This is something that Cubase and Sonar handle much better, but there are quite a few other things that they don't
They're all horses for courses though, so there's really no one best DAW but S1 comes quite close for me now, haven't felt as comfortable in another DAW for so long.

Quote by uto998

4. And were you saying that there would not be much of a difference in the Focusrite and NI unless I go up about $500, or the Focusrite and any other interface (that we discussed)?


Yeah, pretty much. When you move to MOTU or RME you'd probably hear the difference but in this home category cut market its pretty much the same.
#36
Quote by uto998
I love how Luca just so cleverly avoided the part where I said go away.
I didn't have any response to that, I'm trying to clarify stuff, not to pointlessly start debates about whether or not being nice is a priority.
Quote by uto998
I would actually take vocoderboy's reply as a contribution to the thread, since he's not as much a ****** like Luca.
Oh, so didn't care for people to give you any advice but you wanted them to do it in a way that you like, you could have said that right away.

Hope I helped with the thoughts about the komplete.
Quote by Sid McCall
Bonus advice: buy whatever your gut tells you to from a place with a good return policy.
I'm with Scott on this.

Have fun with whatever you end up getting.
Name's Luca.

Quote by OliOsbourne
I don't know anything about this topic, but I just clicked on this thread because of your username :O
Quote by Cajundaddy
Clue: amplifiers amplify so don't turn it on if you need quiet.
Quote by chrismendiola
I guess spambots are now capable of reading minds.