#1
So working from E phrygian (spelling...I know)

I get the notes

E F G A B C D E

Now, according to my understanding of comparing it to the minor scale

E F# G A B C D E

the real difference is the b2 created by the switch of F# to F

Actual Question: (the above is just the foundation I am working from)

To get that "spanish flavor" I want to use chords that sound like the guide to the E note/E minor chord, AND emphasis the F note, correct?

For example I ended up getting this chords when I build my triads and add the 7th

Em7 FMaj7 G7 Am7 Bm7b5 CMaj7 Dm7 Em7

So the Em7 would be my i chord, and the FMaj7, G7, Bm7b5 and Dm7 include the F note, so these would be the chords that really bring out the flavor of the scale when used in a way to guide the ear towards Em?

If that is a correct understanding, what about chords that don't use an F but do include the E such as the Am chord?

I mean you obviously can use any of the chords that produced by the scale, but I'm trying to figure out how to determine which ones really bring about the flavor.

Thanks.
#2
Your first concern is to make it sound like Em is your tonic. And the more chords you use, the harder it is to retain the phrygian sound. Em-Fmaj7 is the most typical progression. But for example playing Em-Fmaj7-Am makes it sound like A minor, not E phrygian. Same with adding C major, it makes it sound like C major, not E phrygian.

I would suggest reading Jet Penguin's mode thread.
Quote by AlanHB
Just remember that there are no boring scales, just boring players.

Gear

Bach Stradivarius 37G
Charvel So Cal
Fender Dimension Bass
Hartke HyDrive 210c
Ibanez BL70
Laney VC30
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Yamaha FG720S-12
Yamaha P115
#3
I did notice the Em - FMaj7 while actually noodling with the chords I pulled from the scale. I'm just trying to confirm that I am getting onto the right track, to help me identify it when I see potential modal progressions in my charts, while avoiding the random mode is just random major scale starting and ending on a different root idea I've been working with far so long(even though on paper it's true). I'll look into that resource you listed! Thanks.
Last edited by Shallon Dark at May 19, 2015,
#4
Let me ask you an honest question.

How are you going to make E Phrygian not sound like it wants to resolve to C Major?

When you can answer that, then you'll know how to do it right. However I'll give you a heads up and save you some time: Ultimately the facts that you are citing, are providing almost no insight into how to apply the details.

What you might be better served in doing, is to go study and really practice applying cadences until you understand them, and why they relate to this, and come back to this question later, and also spend time investigating harmony with a single tonal centre.

You'll be better prepared to manage this question.

Good luck.

Best,

Sean
#5
If you want to establish E Phrygian as a tonal center, then it's always good to use some specifically Phrygian voicings.

For example...



The last one is one of my favorites!

Thanks to Frank Gambale for the voicings.
"No one is a sorcerer every hour of the day. How could you live?" — Pablo Picasso
Last edited by Tonto Goldstien at May 19, 2015,
#6
If I may:

Em is your tonic chord.

You have a character pitch of F, leaving you these cadence chords:

Fmaj7
Dm7

We throw out the Bm7b5 and the G7 (because tonality) and this leaves us C and Em as stable, conditional chords.

So, to make it a modal framework, you need:

Tonic - Cadence - Stable/Tonic - Cadence x Infinity.

Read this:https://www.ultimate-guitar.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1660895&highlight=airstrike+jet

Tonto's voicings are also worth checking out; a modal framework does not limit you to tertian harmony, albeit all of those replace either a tonic or cadence chord sound.
"There are two styles of music. Good music and bad music." -Duke Ellington

"If you really think about it, the guitar is a pointless instrument." - Robert Fripp
#7
So much great stuff from everyone! Thank you. I feel like the gaps are slowly closing in.

Just to try and explain what you were saying Jet Penguin to see if I'm understanding your thread(great read, need to review it a few times for sure!), your posts, and the inputs from everyone else here:

So from what I have gathered so far, we want to stick with guiding the ear towards the Em chord to get that sound. We need to keep a Tonic -> Cadence structure, if we want to expand it out a little bit more than two chords we need to do a Tonic -> Cadence -> and maybe adding a Stable/Tonic and then repeat this forever.

The FMaj7 and the Dm7 can stay because of the F note contained within them that brings out the proper flavor. The other two options that include the F note get dropped because they tend to guide us towards a different pitch forcing us into "major/minor".


So in an attempt to create an F Lydian framework,

I could do FMaj7 -> G or G(7)

One that I like with my ear better

FMaj7 -> CMaj7 -> FMaj7 -> G7

or

FMaj7 -> CMaj7 - Am7 - CMaj7

or

FMaj7 ->CMaj7 - Am7 - Em7

I arrived at this, using two rules 1. There is the #4 in both cords. F is the tonal center I want, and I grab the cord right next to it and go back and forth. As far as the soloing goes, I would probably want to bring out the F and #4 (B) note.

*shrug* I'm trying to figure it all out, or at least get the foundation I need to start experimenting properly! Now to review that wonderful thread again!

Edit:

Tonic: FMaj7
Potential cadence chords for F Lydian may include CMaj7 and G7 and Em7. (Not the tonic, but they do include the #4 either in the basic triad or the extension) -I'm iffy on this part, if we count the 7th or just the basic triad.
Stable Chords would be Am7, Dm7 (They are not the tonic, and do not include the characteristic note)

I'm pulling those two because they include our raised fourth and keep the Major tonality that Lydian leans to.
Last edited by Shallon Dark at May 20, 2015,
#8
You're on the right track.

Fmaj7 to G is F lydian.

Fmaj7 to Cmaj7 is NOT F Lydian. Even though you have tonic -> cadence, etc., you have created a IV-I plagal cadence in C major. So this is NOT modal.

So unfortunately, none of those count, except F-G.

Cadence chords for F lydian are Em7 and G(7). The 7 is a maybe, because you CANNOT let it resolve in typical dominant motion. Or even imply that its going to do so.

Protip: you can alter the G chord, as long as you do not imply tonality. G9sus4 (Fmaj7/G), perhaps?

Am7 and Dm7 are the stable chords, no B there.

So Cmaj7 here is a Cadence chord in name, but we can't use it after F because it makes a cadence. This is a cadence chord only when it follows Am7 or Dm7, which will probably rarely happen because modal frameworks tend to use very few chords in stepwise motion.

Lemme know if that makes sense. Again, you aren't limited to tertian harmony, or chords with names.
"There are two styles of music. Good music and bad music." -Duke Ellington

"If you really think about it, the guitar is a pointless instrument." - Robert Fripp
#9
It is slowly becoming clearer. Now, I need to spend some time recognizing the IV-I and other common movements like that, which I bet that was why Sean was telling me to hold off for a bit while figure it out. Your thread and feedback have been golden! Thanks again.

Can anyone suggest a good book to work through to really cement this in?
#10
Oh boy. Don't start looking for a book on modes. You're gonna want a good grasp on tonal theory before diving into things. A good jazz book or classical comp book will work wonders, if either of those are your thing.

Big fan of this one: http://www.amazon.com/Tonal-Harmony-Stefan-Kostka/dp/0078025141

And this for jazz: http://www.amazon.com/Jazz-Theory-Resources-Volume-1/dp/0634038613

First one's a bit pricey but it covers everything from Bach to 12 tone serialism.

But honestly you could do real well now with just obtaining a basic understanding of how tonality and chord function works.
"There are two styles of music. Good music and bad music." -Duke Ellington

"If you really think about it, the guitar is a pointless instrument." - Robert Fripp
#11
Start with major and minor keys and chord functions. Use your ears. I wouldn't get into modes before properly understanding major and minor keys.

Learn to hear the tonic.

I think I learned how different chord functions sounded like by just listening to music and trying to figure it out by ear. Figure out the chords and figure out how they are related to the key. You'll start noticing a lot of common chord movements that are used everywhere.
Quote by AlanHB
Just remember that there are no boring scales, just boring players.

Gear

Bach Stradivarius 37G
Charvel So Cal
Fender Dimension Bass
Hartke HyDrive 210c
Ibanez BL70
Laney VC30
Tokai TB48
Yamaha FG720S-12
Yamaha P115