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#1
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/05/20/us/los-angeles-expected-to-raise-minimum-wage-to-15-an-hour.html


What do you think of this? Seattle and San Francisco also apparently passed this, and New York is trying to as well.


I think it's good that people won't have to work shitty jobs 24/7 just to make ends meet, but I'm no expert on economics or politics so I hardly know what I'm talking about.
#2
it's likely to help some people but it's also going to shut down a few small businesses, raise prices and encourage working under the table.
#3
I'm no economic expert, but won't this only cause inflation?
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#4
Fucking stupid libtards

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#5
I say we change the national currency to fruit rollups and call it good.
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#8
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I say we change the national currency to fruit rollups and call it good.



sounds good to me


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Fucking stupid libtards



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#9
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Good

explain yourself traitor

...modes and scales are still useless.


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#11
I'm no expert on economics either but I study economic theory and I think this will do more harm than good.

businesses need to pay their labor force more > less profit > they need to cut costs > go home early m8 > people lose hours, some get let go > more unemployment gets paid out by the fed gov > republicans lose their shit, etc
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#12
Meh, I'm okay with it.

You can argue until you're blue in the face whether it'll have negative impact because higher cost of employment = layoffs/fewer jobs or positive impact because more money for consumers = more commercial spending and a stimulated economy. There's solid precedent for both arguments, and one of the most amusing moments in my college career was watching to economics professors nearly getting into a fistfight arguing over it. Fact of the matter is there's too many unpredictable variables in individual managers, consumer habits, business models, employee skills and work ethic, etc., etc. to really say for certain whether it'll be good or bad until you actually implement it and see what happens. And granted "We don't know what's going to happen when we pull the trigger, so let's hope it's the good ending" isn't exactly the best way to approach things, but minimum wage was established in the first place to create a livable wage, which $7.25 most certainly isn't, and it's not like the increase has destroyed the economy of places like Seattle. It's worth experimenting, and even if $15 is a bit steep, it does need to be raised at least somewhat, because again, $7.25/hr is a pitiful amount of money to try and live off of.
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#13
Would it not make more sense for the highest paying positions to forced to earn less somehow? I know that would never happen though, way too confusing and people are too dickish for it to go through.
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#14
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Would it not make more sense for the highest paying positions to forced to earn less somehow? I know that would never happen though, way too confusing and people are too dickish for it to go through.

no it would not?
#15
Quote by necrosis1193
Meh, I'm okay with it.

You can argue until you're blue in the face whether it'll have negative impact because higher cost of employment = layoffs/fewer jobs or positive impact because more money for consumers = more commercial spending and a stimulated economy. There's solid precedent for both arguments, and one of the most amusing moments in my college career was watching to economics professors nearly getting into a fistfight arguing over it. Fact of the matter is there's too many unpredictable variables in individual managers, consumer habits, business models, employee skills and work ethic, etc., etc. to really say for certain whether it'll be good or bad until you actually implement it and see what happens. And granted "We don't know what's going to happen when we pull the trigger, so let's hope it's the good ending" isn't exactly the best way to approach things, but minimum wage was established in the first place to create a livable wage, which $7.25 most certainly isn't, and it's not like the increase has destroyed the economy of places like Seattle. It's worth experimenting, and even if $15 is a bit steep, it does need to be raised at least somewhat, because again, $7.25/hr is a pitiful amount of money to try and live off of.

This is a reasonable and measured thought.

However the kind of jobs stuck with minimum wage were traditionally meant for entry level workers (ie high school students doing part time work). They were never meant to support a livable income.

...modes and scales are still useless.


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#16
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This is a reasonable and measured thought.

However the kind of jobs stuck with minimum wage were traditionally meant for entry level workers (ie high school students doing part time work). They were never meant to support a livable income.

That's just lip service to justify increasing profits through withholding reasonable payment to workers. The entry-level worker bit is harmed even further by the rate in which management fills these positions with temporary foreign workers.
#17
Quote by Pastafarian96
Would it not make more sense for the highest paying positions to forced to earn less somehow?

Why would you do that.
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#18
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That's just lip service to justify increasing profits through withholding reasonable payment to workers. The entry-level worker bit is harmed even further by the rate in which management fills these positions with temporary foreign workers.

I'm not sure what temporary foreign workers you're referring to. Businesses cannot legally offer employment to anyone who does not have permanent residence, naturalization certificate, or working visa.

...modes and scales are still useless.


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#19
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I'm not sure what temporary foreign workers you're referring to. Businesses cannot legally offer employment to anyone who does not have permanent residence, naturalization certificate, or working visa.

Canadian issue most likely. But the corporations in question are not.
#20
Quote by ErikLensherr
Why would you do that.

Because (well mostly in Australia) there are not enough actual workers and too many clerks in many jobs. for example, until two years ago the school I'm at had 5 times the administration staff as it did teaching staff, the people who actually make the place money were outnumbered by people that were just inflating the system.
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#21
Maybe if businesses are paying their employees a living wage, they'll stop giving crazy high salaries to the higher-ups.

Lolnah, rich people aren't like that.
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#22
"This is absolutely terrible and it will cripple our economy!"

*nonchalantly takes a puff from an expensive Cuban cigar*
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#24
Quote by Xiaoxi
This is a reasonable and measured thought.

However the kind of jobs stuck with minimum wage were traditionally meant for entry level workers (ie high school students doing part time work). They were never meant to support a livable income.


The problem with the "It's for students and teenaged kids making a buck during summer or during the weekends" argument is that there's already a part of the Fair Labor Standards act that allows companies to pay workers under 20 $4.25 an hour for up to ninety days. I don't know about most people, but none of the part-time jobs I had during the summer lasted long enough to get out of that. The "It's for part-time students" argument doesn't make sense because there's already legislation that allows companies to legally pay students less than minimum wage for the duration of most part-time student jobs.

As far as it not being meant to support a livable income, legally speaking this is true. It's more an ideological debate than anything else, I've just always felt that was the intent of establishing it was to create a livable minimum wage given this quote by FDR, who was the president that pushed it into passing:

No business which depends for existence on paying less than living wages to its workers has any right to continue in this country.


You can argue how much the belief of a man who died 70 years ago should be considered in modern legislation, but again, given he was the one who pushed for the FLSA, I figured his original intent was worth mentioning, even if it's not the legal language.
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#25
Quote by Crazyedd123
Maybe if businesses are paying their employees a living wage, they'll stop giving crazy high salaries to the higher-ups.

Lolnah, rich people aren't like that.

I suspect cutting into the highest salary does not really have anything to do with it, as these types of businesses are usually large public corporations.

The keyword there is public, as in they are under the scrutiny of public shareholders who mostly only care about the bottom line (which is net profit after all expenses). That plays a large part in why the wages stay low.

But even with that in mind, it still does not address the issue that these jobs are not meant for living on to begin with.

...modes and scales are still useless.


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#26
There's extensive statistical research that shows that raising the minimum wage does not lead to lay offs. So I am ok with this.
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#27
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I suspect cutting into the highest salary does not really have anything to do with it, as these types of businesses are usually large public corporations.

The keyword there is public, as in they are under the scrutiny of public shareholders who mostly only care about the bottom line (which is net profit after all expenses). That plays a large part in why the wages stay low.

But even with that in mind, it still does not address the issue that these jobs are not meant for living on to begin with.

I don't know much about this but do a lot of people who need a livable wage work minimum wage jobs? Like is there a credible source with a statistic?

Cause I see a shit ton of people over 20 and 30 working at fast food places and mall department stores here.
#28
Don't guys in the army get paid $8 an hour? Dang.
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#29
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So, basically taxes?

Yes, something Australia's politicians have a bad recent history with.
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#30
Quote by necrosis1193
The problem with the "It's for students and teenaged kids making a buck during summer or during the weekends" argument is that there's already a part of the Fair Labor Standards act that allows companies to pay workers under 20 $4.25 an hour for up to ninety days. I don't know about most people, but none of the part-time jobs I had during the summer lasted long enough to get out of that. The "It's for part-time students" argument doesn't make sense because there's already legislation that allows companies to legally pay students less than minimum wage for the duration of most part-time student jobs.
I personally don't know anyone when I was in high school who got paid $4.25. I got paid just above minimum at my first job and know for certain I could never have gotten that job if they were required to pay $15 (small local business).

You can argue how much the belief of a man who died 70 years ago should be considered in modern legislation, but again, given he was the one who pushed for the FLSA, I figured his original intent was worth mentioning, even if it's not the legal language.
While FDR's vision should be taken into account, I think it's fair to say that the current state of affairs is much more complex.


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I don't know much about this but do a lot of people who need a livable wage work minimum wage jobs? Like is there a credible source with a statistic?

Cause I see a shit ton of people over 20 and 30 working at fast food places and mall department stores here.

I don't know about "a lot" in terms of percentage. But I don't think so. I also think the issue is more pronounced in small towns and places without much economic opportunity.

...modes and scales are still useless.


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#31
As a person with A) significant debt, namely student loans, and B) any measurable wealth being in Real Estate, I say bring it on!

Inflation means an ever-more-worthless dollar, which means the 2004 dollars I bought my house for are getting teenier and tinier every minute I'm alive, and the debt I owe will be easier and easier to pay off as my salary (eventually) balloons thanks again to inflation.

A gallon of milk might cost $16 in a few years, but it won't matter to me!

Hooray for inflation, baby.

Sucks if you're retired, though.
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#32
There are 6 fast food places and a wal mart on every intersection and I see 40 year olds in these places working all the time.

People are so scared of inflation lol
#33
I usually ask "Why not $100 an hour" in these discussions, then watch people who are in favor of increasing the minimum wage make really good arguments against the minimum wage.
#34
Quote by Xiaoxi
I personally don't know anyone when I was in high school who got paid $4.25. I got paid just above minimum at my first job and know for certain I could never have gotten that job if they were required to pay $15 (small local business).


Well, my summer job was with Guitar Center, so that probably explains a lot of it. One more reason to be glad they're going bankrupt.

While FDR's vision should be taken into account, I think it's fair to say that the current state of affairs is much more complex.


Absolutely, which is why, again, whether it should be a livable wage or not really comes down to an ideological debate. Personally I'm not even sure where I stand on it because while higher wages would help me now, I do value the money-managing skills and experience I got from working as a teenager, even if it was a shitty job, as well as the things I bought that are still working and being used with the money form it. It's a question I don't have an answer for, and in that case, I point to the person who gave the original answer, even if it might be outdated, because an answer you're aware and acknowledge is outdated is better than nothing.
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#35
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I usually ask "Why not $100 an hour" in these discussions, then watch people who are in favor of increasing the minimum wage make really good arguments against the minimum wage.

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#36
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I usually ask "Why not $100 an hour" in these discussions, then watch people who are in favor of increasing the minimum wage make really good arguments against the minimum wage.

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#37
i think we should just get rid of any sort of currency and we can all be happy
it's all just coming back
it's all coming back

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#38
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#39
Quote by necrosis1193

Absolutely, which is why, again, whether it should be a livable wage or not really comes down to an ideological debate.
I'd argue it's not purely ideological. While it's not a perfect comparison, you can look to Australia which truly has a $15 minimum wage floor. The result is that everything costs more accordingly. Granted, a lot of that covers import costs given the geographical nature of Australia, but it does show that there is a relative scale that adapts to the height of the minimum floor.

Personally I'm not even sure where I stand on it because while higher wages would help me now, I do value the money-managing skills and experience I got from working as a teenager, even if it was a shitty job, as well as the things I bought that are still working and being used with the money form it. It's a question I don't have an answer for, and in that case, I point to the person who gave the original answer, even if it might be outdated, because an answer you're aware and acknowledge is outdated is better than nothing.

I'm not that concerned with the "hire-ability" implication of increasing the minimum wage. A big part of why the people who are affected by this want it is to be able to afford housing. The $15 increase may temporarily afford them that opportunity, but it's not hard to see that the increased demand will just hike up rent, leaving them right back where they started in the first place.

The other danger is that I don't think anything above the minimum wage will adjust accordingly, at least not for a while. This means that the minimum wage increase will raise general cost of living for everyone, harming the middle class's purchasing power and shifting a lot of people from lower-middle class into straight up into "working" class.

The main problem I have with this libtarded $15 idea is that it is recklessly trying to force a one-sided change without accounting for the bigger implications, which just does not work. Many things have to be in place and implemented correctly in order to effectively address poverty. This misses the mark by miles.

...modes and scales are still useless.


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#40
Quote by Xiaoxi
This is a reasonable and measured thought.

However the kind of jobs stuck with minimum wage were traditionally meant for entry level workers (ie high school students doing part time work). They were never meant to support a livable income.

Yes, because it's reasonable to expect the nation's entire service industry to depend on underage, part time labor. :eyeroll:

I'm all for giving more money to poor people because they go out and spend it.

If you oppose this, I'd like to know the exact highest minimum wage that will avoid this automation/layoffs/cut hours boogeyman and I'd like to see the data analysis to prove it.
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