#1
I've noticed loads of songs include a progression where they play the major fourth, then the minor fourth, and then usually resolve back to the root. I've had a look and I can't find a name for that, but is there one?
#2
I guess the technical name would be IV-iv-I. You mean kind of like in Creep by Radiohead?
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#3
Yeah, creep's a good example because it's pretty clear and consistent throughout the song. Other examples which have it would be In My Life, the Moon Song (from Her), Space Oddity, Under The Bridge, Don't Look Back In Anger to name just a few
#4
Yeah, it's very common. Radiohead - Creep is the first song to come to my mind. But yeah, it's one of the most common non-diatonic chords. It's "borrowed" from the parallel minor key (if we are in C major, we can borrow chords from C minor).
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#8
Modal Interchange.
"There are two styles of music. Good music and bad music." -Duke Ellington

"If you really think about it, the guitar is a pointless instrument." - Robert Fripp
#9
It is called a partial diatonic substitution. It's when you reverse the quality of a chord in a scale essentially.
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#11
Ok everyone's literally making things up at this point.
"There are two styles of music. Good music and bad music." -Duke Ellington

"If you really think about it, the guitar is a pointless instrument." - Robert Fripp
#14
Reminds me of Frank Sinatra...

"I've live a life that's full
I travelled each and every highway"

Al Green - Let's Stay Together has a similar trick but instead of going
IV-IVm
The band goes
IV-bVI6
It has a similar effect but it's a little more pronounced IMO.

Bear in mind that this trick works with both m7 and a m(Maj7) chords.
#16
Your just talking away, Jazzy Z. You don't know what to say but you'll say it anyway.
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#18
Quote by MaXiMuse
It's called a moll dur or MD. In notation would be like I - IV - IV(MD)

moll means minor and dur means major in German, so you got a chord that borrowed from the minor key/scale while you're in the major key/scale.

I've never seen moll dur used as a harmonic designation but I guess that works, although is it enough to really be considered that? MD to me is more about weaving in and out of major/minor within a phrase, a la Brahms.

...modes and scales are still useless.


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#19
^Yeah that. This is just THE go to example of mode mixture/modal interchange: IVm.
"There are two styles of music. Good music and bad music." -Duke Ellington

"If you really think about it, the guitar is a pointless instrument." - Robert Fripp
#20
But I hate the term "modal interchange". It is just sooooooo..terrible... on so many levels.

You know what, I'll take the moll dur.

...modes and scales are still useless.


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#21
Yeah it is, but we're the minority. Let's call it mode mixture.
"There are two styles of music. Good music and bad music." -Duke Ellington

"If you really think about it, the guitar is a pointless instrument." - Robert Fripp
#22
The final couple bars leading up to the chorus in Weezer's "Buddy Holly" does this, as well. After a couple runs of D, to C#, to F# power chords, they go D major, then D minor, before dropping back down to A for the chorus progression of A, D, E.

Edit: I was thinking of the positions on the fretboard, and forgot that song is tuned Eb. So, all those chords go down half a step. But yeah, whatever, same thing applies.
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Last edited by the_bi99man at May 28, 2015,
#23
To me "moll dur" sounds like a 7#9 chord.


Couldn't we just call it "chord borrowing"?
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#24
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#25
Everyone pretty much nailed it.

It's called Modal Interchange, or borrowing from the Parallel Minor Key.

If you take C Major Diatonic Triads, it means the triads built that only use notes from the C Major Scale:

C D E F G A B C make

C Dm Em F G Am B dim triads

C Minor (Natural) Scale

C D Eb F G Ab Bb C

Cm D dim Eb Fm Gm Ab Bb

Notice in this instance the IV chord is Fm compared to F Major.

As I recall the progression for Creep is in G - G Bm C Cm so I iii IV iv - the iv is borrowed from the diatonic series in Gm. The other common borrowed chords are the bVI and more common the bVII.

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#26
sound very "church" Amen feel ..plagal cadence..works for me...as its definition is a IV to I the minor being also the iv..and its function is the same in this case..
play well

wolf
#27
^Agreed. The iv is essentially a passing chord and if anything reaffirms the plagal resolution.

I tend to refer to this as an extended plagal cadence.

the plagal cadence being the resolution of a musical phrase with a IV-I root movement.

The voice leading within this chord change is as follows.
F->E
A->G
C->C

F->C (root)

By taking the A->G diatonic whole step movement and dragging it out by using a chromatic half step passage A->Ab->G we can get to the same place but just drawing the move out.

So you get F-Fm-C.
F ->F -> E
A->Ab->G
C->C -> C

F ->F -> C (root movement)

You can then take this same concept and start to apply it in other areas. As an example listen to the Pink Floyd song Nobody Home they use this F-Fm-C extended cadence, but also use an Am-Am/M7-C change elsewhere in the song which mirrors that same A-Ab(G#)-G chromatic movement that makes the IV-iv-I extended plagal cadence so beautiful.

In the book The Songwriting Secrets of the Beatles (which I highly recommend getting your hands on and reading) Dominic Pedlar discusses this particular move in chapter 2:
Quote by The Songwriting Secrets of the Beatles
The IV major-to-iv minor Plagal variation
A favourite Beatles manoeuvre gleaned from a strong songwriting tradition was to play a IV chord - but switch it from a major to a minor triad before returning to I. The same root movement applies but now the progression is F-Fm-C.

This idea dates back most famously to Cole Porter's classic 'Every Time We Say Goodbye', where this hybrid cadence is even cued by the immortal line: 'How strange the change from major to minor. . .'

[illustration removed]

Again, the beauty of this move is in the voice-leading that creates a consecutive three-semitone descent as the major 3rd of Porter's IV chord drops to a minor 3rd and, from there, to the 5th of the I chord.

The ultimate example in which to hear the mechanics of this move is undoubtedly The Beatles' cover of 'Devil In Her Heart', by Richard B. Drapkin, where the melody spectacularly mirrors the harmonic activity (at 0.25- 0.3l ).

[illustration removed]

While the ballad tradition of the fifties usually reserved this idea for the bridge, The Beatles showed how it could spice up a IV-I move. Whether it was the pure pop of 'Hold Me Tight' or the 'power ballad' meanderings of 'Lucy In The Sky With Diamonds', here is another formula that appears on virtually every Beatles album.

[illustration removed]

Of these, 'In My life' makes particularly good early use of this idea in establishing a reflective feel consistent with the theme of the song.
'In My Life'

[illustration removed]

It doesn't matter that John's melody doesn't mirror the chromatic move - although the harmony vocal does happen to do so as the F# drops to F natural reflecting the D-D minor change.

While Cole Porter will probably always be associated with this move, it's more likely that The Beatles became familiar with it through a particular pair of favourite early covers that predate 'Devil In Her Heart':
'Till There Was You' (bridge): 'music .. / .. and wonderful..' (B-Bm-F)
'Ain't She Sweet' (bridge): 'cast an eye./ . .in her direction' (A-Am-E)

What a coincidence that, 30 years after 'Till There Was You', Noel Gallagher should choose to play the song at his wedding ceremony. Only a few weeks earlier, his song 'Don't Look Back In Anger' - containing a textbook use of the same device - was at the top of the UK charts (hear it both in the 'gonna start a revolution from my bed' bridge, and in the final coda where it makes for a melancholy repeat of the title phrase - both times: F-Fm in the key of C).

For while it is often regarded as a dated ballad cliche, IV-iv has proved a winning move that has enjoyed success in several smash hits down the years. You can hear it in the 'progressive' pop of David Bowie's 'Starman', and equally on nineties ballads like Extreme's 'More Than Words'. It was perhaps most cleverly adopted by 10 CC on the classic 'I'm Not In Love' where IV-iv disarmingly opens the verse.
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#28
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#29
Quote by Paully1
I'm so high, I don't even know what's going on.


amen..a plagal cadence will do that to ya..
play well

wolf