#1
I guess, when you say 13b9, you mean this sort of shape?

5
6
5
4
x
x

I actually eared that whole piece out. There were a couple shapes I didn't use much. That was one of them, and I actually don't use augmenteds much either. But the chord name website I use sometimes didn't know what the above was, nor I think one other shape, which was a sort of dim Maj 7 I think.

but I remember you sayign that you would play an A over a C I think it was, because of WH scale, if I got that right, which then became a 13b9, but I don't understand how the WH scale comes in.
#2
Quote by fingrpikingood
I guess, when you say 13b9, you mean this sort of shape?

5
6
5
4
x
x

I actually eared that whole piece out. There were a couple shapes I didn't use much. That was one of them, and I actually don't use augmenteds much either. But the chord name website I use sometimes didn't know what the above was, nor I think one other shape, which was a sort of dim Maj 7 I think.

but I remember you sayign that you would play an A over a C I think it was, because of WH scale, if I got that right, which then became a 13b9, but I don't understand how the WH scale comes in.


F# C F A?

If from the F# (as the root) - then I'd consider the "F" an EX (major 7th) the C a b5 and an A a b3.

If from the F (as root) - the I'd change F# to Gb - a b9 the A a major 3rd and a C the 5th. There's no D, so I don't see a 13th or the Eb (b7)

Can you explain what I'm missing in your diagram? Is this a rootless chord?

Best,

Sean
#3
Quote by Sean0913
F# C F A?

If from the F# (as the root) - then I'd consider the "F" an EX (major 7th) the C a b5 and an A a b3.

If from the F (as root) - the I'd change F# to Gb - a b9 the A a major 3rd and a C the 5th. There's no D, so I don't see a 13th or the Eb (b7)

Can you explain what I'm missing in your diagram? Is this a rootless chord?

Best,

Sean



In another thread Jet had written this comment which I asked him more in depth about, and that eventually led to him posting this soundcloud byte, which I eared out, and found that chord shape a few times, which I was wondering, or kind of figured was the "13b9s" he was talking about. Most of the other chord shapes he played were grips I was more accustomed to, except a couple others, I forget what they were now, but I have them saved.
Last edited by fingrpikingood at May 30, 2015,
#4
It's just superimposition with triads.

If you stick a major triad a major 6th higher than the root of a dominant 7th chord, you'll get a 13b9 chord.

G7 with Emaj triad on top. Or in the case of your example, Ab13b9. Your voicing is a rootless voicing.
Last edited by mdc at May 31, 2015,
#5
Quote by mdc
It's just superimposition with triads.

If you stick a major triad a major 6th higher than the root of a dominant 7th chord, you'll get a 13b9 chord.

G7 with Emaj triad on top. Or in the case of your example, Ab13b9. Your voicing is a rootless voicing.


Ah, so it is rootless. That's what I thought. But I didn't know the context! Makes sense now.

Yes.

For example. If you play an E minor triad over a C you have outlined the notes of a C major 7, but to really get that musical sense of the strongest C major 7th, the triad should be in the upper voices, and the highest note of that Em should be a B.

I published an article on a website somewhere once that had named a bunch of these ideas.

I should try and remember where.

Best,

Sean
Last edited by Sean0913 at May 31, 2015,
#6
I got it guys, he's talking about my little ditty in the theory thread.

By itself, in a world with no context, that chord is:

Gb/F# dim(maj7) = 1 b3 b5 7

However, one of the most common uses of the dim(maj7) sound is as a 13b9 chord. The notes we have played there are also:

Ab (13b9) = b7 3 13 b9

In addition, the top 3 notes create an Fmaj triad.

Fmaj/Ab is a common triad superimposition that yields a 13b9 sound.

The reason a HW scale comes into play is because the chord scale that the 13b9 chord is derived from is a diminished scale.

A diminished HW scale gives us altered 9ths and a #11, but also a natural 13th, conveying conflicting information and blurring the expected direction of the dominant chord.

So for your chord, Ab13b9, we'd make an Ab HW scale:

Ab Bbb(A) B C D Eb F Gb = 1 b9 #9 3 #11 5 13 b7

That's where HW comes into play. We are using the device of a diminished scale harmonically in order to create and ambiguous dominant.

Lemme know if that clears things up.
"There are two styles of music. Good music and bad music." -Duke Ellington

"If you really think about it, the guitar is a pointless instrument." - Robert Fripp
#7
Quote by Jet Penguin
I got it guys, he's talking about my little ditty in the theory thread.

By itself, in a world with no context, that chord is:

Gb/F# dim(maj7) = 1 b3 b5 7

However, one of the most common uses of the dim(maj7) sound is as a 13b9 chord. The notes we have played there are also:

Ab (13b9) = b7 3 13 b9

In addition, the top 3 notes create an Fmaj triad.

Fmaj/Ab is a common triad superimposition that yields a 13b9 sound.

The reason a HW scale comes into play is because the chord scale that the 13b9 chord is derived from is a diminished scale.

A diminished HW scale gives us altered 9ths and a #11, but also a natural 13th, conveying conflicting information and blurring the expected direction of the dominant chord.

So for your chord, Ab13b9, we'd make an Ab HW scale:

Ab Bbb(A) B C D Eb F Gb = 1 b9 #9 3 #11 5 13 b7

That's where HW comes into play. We are using the device of a diminished scale harmonically in order to create and ambiguous dominant.

Lemme know if that clears things up.

... it sort of does, but not really. Unfortunately, I think I would need to hear it again. Music doesn't really make any sense to me, unless I can hear it. Unless of course it is something I already know the sound of. So, it makes learning new things tough. For me, the motivation for doing something needs to be sound. Music doesn't make sense to me, to construct things on a theoretical basis alone.
#8
Oh sure, of course. I'm not so much putting the theory before the chord as much as I am explaining the theory behind it and why it works the way it does.

It's just a different color. Think of the different scales you can use over a chord and different colors in a palette.

You're still making a dominant chord, but this is just another color/sound to play around with.

Not that monochrome(mixolydian) doesn't work, there's just more to life than the vanilla sound IMO.

It doesn't imply that one coloristic choice is better than the other one; that'd be silly. It's just about options and new devices.

I still play the plain unaltered chord scales every day when I solo. But now I don't have to, I can use another color than red.
"There are two styles of music. Good music and bad music." -Duke Ellington

"If you really think about it, the guitar is a pointless instrument." - Robert Fripp
#9
It's like taking a steak and adding spices to it. It's still steak, but it is now (possibly) a more flavorful steak.
#10
^Or much, much worse.

There's no implication that one is necessarily better. Only different.
"There are two styles of music. Good music and bad music." -Duke Ellington

"If you really think about it, the guitar is a pointless instrument." - Robert Fripp
#11
Quote by Jet Penguin
^Or much, much worse.

Hence the possibly.

There's no implication that one is necessarily better. Only different.

Well, yeah, depends on how the flavors work together. If I put cinnamon (nothing else) on a steak, that makes it taste bad. (Those flavors aren't complimentary, without other stuff to balance it all out.) On the other hand, if I put a small amount of garlic on a steak, it could taste better. It all depends!

You can't just throw together a bunch of extended chords with no consideration for anything else, and then expect it to sound good. It may, but it probably won't.
#12
Unless, you know, you love cinnamon steak. It's all relative. Maybe I think traditional steak is gross. Maybe I'm vegetarian. Maybe there's something about gross food that appeals to some recessed part of my soul.

It's a weird analogy is all. Nothing's good, nothing's better. Only different, and you like what you like, you know?
"There are two styles of music. Good music and bad music." -Duke Ellington

"If you really think about it, the guitar is a pointless instrument." - Robert Fripp
#13
Quote by Jet Penguin
Oh sure, of course. I'm not so much putting the theory before the chord as much as I am explaining the theory behind it and why it works the way it does.

It's just a different color. Think of the different scales you can use over a chord and different colors in a palette.

You're still making a dominant chord, but this is just another color/sound to play around with.

Not that monochrome(mixolydian) doesn't work, there's just more to life than the vanilla sound IMO.

It doesn't imply that one coloristic choice is better than the other one; that'd be silly. It's just about options and new devices.

I still play the plain unaltered chord scales every day when I solo. But now I don't have to, I can use another color than red.


Right, but before I can make any sense of talking about mixing colors, I need to see them. I don't even know what HW scale sounds like. I don't know how it would sound over anything, and I don't know the relevance of "derived from HW scale" either. I mean, you could say C major is derived from C major scale, but, that in and of itself, is meaningless. knowing that it is the tonic chord of C major, and what the tonic sounds like, and how it sounds in practice makes it all make sense.

I wasn't implying that you were using theory to decide to play chords or anything like that. I don't know anything like that about you in general or at any given time, I don't even know that about me sometimes, and to be honest, I don't really think it matters. Some people enjoy music doing it one way, and others another way, and I'm happy with anyone enjoying music however they want. It's just for me, the spirit of expression in freestyle, is to be honest with what one feels, and wants to hear simply for the character of the sound, and not for some logical reasoning, so I try for that, but whatever.

I'm just saying that for me, to understand something I am not already familiar with, requires a sound explanation. There is no other explanation for me. For me, there is no "where it comes from" or "how it works" really. There is just, "this sounds like this, and we call it this." Right? Like, if you are talking to me about ingredients to make a dish, you could talk about all these ingredients, and how you use them and prepare them, but really what matters is what an ingredient tastes like, and seeing how the mix tastes, and how a certain procedure affects the dish or whatever, from an experience standpoint.

So, for me, when you say something along the lines of (and I'll probably mess something up) I play 13b9s because if you derive a chord out of HW scale of C or whatever, you can get an A chord, which is a 13b9. Or I don't know exactly what you were saying, but it's just words to me.

But it's all good, thx for trying, just forums are not well suited for that kind of thing really. Which kind of sucks. Live, you could show me in like 5 minutes, I'm sure.
Last edited by fingrpikingood at Jun 1, 2015,
#14
^That I could.

Maybe a good thing to try would be to play a plain G7 in a progression, and then again, replacing it with a G13b9, and observing the differing effect you hear.

You could do the same thing with a scale, alternating over a Dom7 vamp with Mixolydian and HW based melodies and getting the 'sound' of each one internalized?

What you said about the triads is right, sort of. The cart and the horse just aren't perfectly lined up.

Just suggestions, you seem like you really want to get it, so I'm here to help out.

Also, I PM'd you.
"There are two styles of music. Good music and bad music." -Duke Ellington

"If you really think about it, the guitar is a pointless instrument." - Robert Fripp
#15
For me, the motivation for doing something needs to be sound. Music doesn't make sense to me, to construct things
oppo mobiles on a theoretical basis alone.
#16
^Crafty. Still getting decapitated though. Another trophy for the mod war room.
"There are two styles of music. Good music and bad music." -Duke Ellington

"If you really think about it, the guitar is a pointless instrument." - Robert Fripp
#18
"Go Play that HW"

So motivational lol. I just picture like a half time speech to like a jazz band instead of a football team.

But yes, what Sean said.
"There are two styles of music. Good music and bad music." -Duke Ellington

"If you really think about it, the guitar is a pointless instrument." - Robert Fripp
#19
Quote by Sean0913
But you can make sound, fingrpikingood, you have an instrument and notes. Play the thing. Go play that "sound explanation", and then look at what's being done. Go PLAY that HW, and derive YOUR own meaning, since that's how it works for you.

Best,

Sean


Yes, I am aware of this. I am completely self taught. The thing is, that it is relatively likely that I would not be interested in learning it. I have plenty with what I can do already. Some things are not useful to the style I play. It would take some amount of time of messing around with it in order to develop an understanding of what it is, and how it is used, and then whether or not it is useful to me. Hearing it, in how it works, would help me for that.

So, I was just hoping I could hear what this HW scale sounded like, in how it can make an A work over a C. I was curious about it. I'm in no big hurry to try to find how to play more interesting things. I can already guitar pretty good. I am however, always keeping an open mind and looking to learn more, if I can. It would have been interesting to hear it, it's not such a big deal to me if I don't. I have other things I have prioritize right now, when I have time with my guitar.

There are a lot of things I could look up on the internet and learn on guitar, some of them, I know are not useful for me. This approach sounded interesting to me, so I was curious, but it's not a big deal.

what was interesting to me, was how he said "I play this chord over that one, because of how a scale works." It's an interesting idea to me. But I can only understand the explanation in audio I guess.
Last edited by fingrpikingood at Jun 3, 2015,
#20
^Fair enough.
"There are two styles of music. Good music and bad music." -Duke Ellington

"If you really think about it, the guitar is a pointless instrument." - Robert Fripp
#21
Quote by Jet Penguin
^Fair enough.


Thx for taking the time to make that audio clip though. It was still interesting to ear out.
Last edited by fingrpikingood at Jun 3, 2015,