#1
Hey...wondering if anyone has any issues like this.

Band plays through a PA system/mixing desk. I'm the lead guitarist and use a pretty standard pedalboard, but for some reason when I use two overdrive pedals either one at a time or stacking....one of them craps out and the signal becomes faint, so I end up being forced to use the one pedal all night and have to bend down to change settings. I'm told it's probably a lack of headroom in the PA so the signal gets compressed if I use a second overdrive.

Is this my fate? Or is there another option for me. I can't use an AMP, not enough room normally and they don't want me turning myself up..typical band. I'm using all analog pedals, would it make any difference if I used a digital overdrive/effects pedal I wonder?

Anyone got any ideas?
#2
what are the pedals and what's the PA? Also what's the power supply?

Is the situation the same when you use an amp?
#3
boss tuner-groove59Overdrive-Maxon distortion-Blackstar boost-Maxon Delay. They're all powered on a 9v daisy chain except the boost which is 12v.

It all works fine through an AMP, so I don't think it's power related. I don't know enough about the PA although I'm assured they can't fix it at that end. Maybe I should take out the distortion pedal and try one of my other overdrives instead....although I don't get time to experiment when setting up for the gig.
#4
All of those pedals are designed to drive a guitar amp input, not a PA channel input. Different animals. You either need to switch to a Digital Multi Effects pedal designed to go direct to the board or run into an amp. A 5w Champ would work fine with a mic on the speaker.

Different tools for different jobs.
"Your sound is in your hands as much as anything. It's the way you pick, and the way you hold the guitar, more than it is the amp or the guitar you use." -- Stevie Ray Vaughan

"Anybody can play. The note is only 20 percent. The attitude of the motherfucker who plays it is 80 percent." -- Miles Davis

Guthrie on tone: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zmohdG9lLqY
#5
Ahhh I see. That's sounds like the answer I've been looking for. If I was even slightly more tech savvy I would have known that. We used to run through Amps initially but changed to PA for simplicity and that stuffed me up. I had some digital pedals that worked fine if I recall correctly...pity I sold them coz I had no idea.

Thanks for your help.
#6
Quote by hawkenstien
Ahhh I see. That's sounds like the answer I've been looking for. If I was even slightly more tech savvy I would have known that. We used to run through Amps initially but changed to PA for simplicity and that stuffed me up. I had some digital pedals that worked fine if I recall correctly...pity I sold them coz I had no idea.

Thanks for your help.




Your sound guy should have known this as well but sadly, most do not. If you like those pedals, get a really small amp and mic it.
"Your sound is in your hands as much as anything. It's the way you pick, and the way you hold the guitar, more than it is the amp or the guitar you use." -- Stevie Ray Vaughan

"Anybody can play. The note is only 20 percent. The attitude of the motherfucker who plays it is 80 percent." -- Miles Davis

Guthrie on tone: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zmohdG9lLqY
#7
Sounds like a plan seeing as I spent time and money trying to get a half decent sound only to be dealt a cruel blow by being hooked up through the PA.

#8
A tech21 character series pedal or their para-di pedal would help at the end of your board to go direct to pa, probably sound better than it does now too. Joyo makes clones of their stuff but might not be reliable for live use.
#9
Quote by hawkenstien
Sounds like a plan seeing as I spent time and money trying to get a half decent sound only to be dealt a cruel blow by being hooked up through the PA.

You could try backing off the gain and volume of your dirt pedals to keep the direct box/PA inputs from being driven too hard, keeping at unity but you won't really hear the proper distortion characteristics. Also a cab-sim direct box helps. An amp-in-a-box pedal like the Joyo stuff might be beneficial just as an in-between pedal, drives to the input of the amp-box and the delay after the output. I'd still want a cab-sim direct box though.

And yeah, the stuff a guitarist needs to sound good through a PA can be quite different than just to an amp. Micing an amp is a choice, and you don't need to crank the amp that much for the mic to pick it up (up the gain on the sound board). Try to get an amp with an effects loop, so you can put the delay in that loop. You could also get a multi-effects like the POD HD500. But I'd say it's difficult to get a "good" guitar tone without an amp or at least good amp modeling.
Last edited by Will Lane at Jun 8, 2015,
#10
I play in a variety of room sizes. I feel your pain. Some of places I play have no room for a pedal board of any size so I rely on a small VOX VT30 amp and a single Ibanez Tube Screamer. Most of my effects come from the VOX which is a modeling amp with lots of programmable effects. I also mic the amp using a Shure 57 or 58 with the AmpClamp which I highly recommend. http://www.ampclamps.com/ It's very small and you don't need a mike stand or additional room to use.
Yes I am guitarded also, nice to meet you.
#11
You can also get a speaker emulator and that at the end of your signal, H&K Redbox for example.

Another way is to get a overdrive/distortion pedal that has speaker emulated output, H&K Tubeman II, Sansamp GT-2 or Original, Blackstar HT-2 are some of the ones that come to mind.

Third option would be to run an amp, even a small one and mic it up.
#12
Quote by Will Lane
You could also get a multi-effects like the POD HD500. But I'd say it's difficult to get a "good" guitar tone without an amp or at least good amp modeling.


I've used Pods for quite a while now, direct to a PA or to a PA-type speaker setup.

One recent addition has been a Two-Notes Torpedo C.A.B., which really does a great job with cab simulations (using IRs), same as something like the Kemper. In addition, it offers tube power amp simulation -- just the power amp part of a tube amp, not the preamp section. IOW, it will reproduce the sound as it if were being run through a set of EL34s, EL84, 6L6, 6V6, etc.
#13
almost all of the digitech pedals have a DI to the board. I have used my Bad Monkey into a powered speaker on a few occasions (to practice at home). Not the best results, but useable.
2002 PRS CE22
2013 G&L ASAT Deluxe
2009 Epiphone G-400 (SH-4)
Marshall JCM2000 DSL100
Krank 1980 Jr 20watt
Krank Rev 4x12 (eminence V12)
GFS Greenie/Digitech Bad Monkey
Morley Bad Horsie 2
MXR Smart Gate
#14
Quote by hawkenstien
Ahhh I see. That's sounds like the answer I've been looking for. If I was even slightly more tech savvy I would have known that. We used to run through Amps initially but changed to PA for simplicity and that stuffed me up. I had some digital pedals that worked fine if I recall correctly...pity I sold them coz I had no idea.

Thanks for your help.


Keep in mind that it's not just an issue of analog vs digital pedals. Digital stompboxes are still pedals, just like analog ones, and are made to go into a guitar amp. The only ones that are exceptions will be pedals (almost always multi-effect/amp modeling units) which actually have a switch on them to go into "mixer" mode, rather than "amp" mode (or sometimes actual separate outputs). Use a real amp and mic that shit up. If your bandmates have a problem with that, tell them to suck it because they don't know what they're talking about.
Guitars
Schecter Hellraiser C-1FR, C-1 Classic, Hellraiser Hybrid Solo-II, Special Edition E-1FR-S
Orange Rockerverb 50 212
Basses
Yamaha RBX374 and Washburn MB-6
Last edited by the_bi99man at Jun 8, 2015,
#15
I've gone down this path: bought a Joyo orange juice amp sim, and a cheap arse Behringer DI box. So I'll see how that gear goes at next gig in 10 days time, which is in a pub (yay). We don't get a chance to experiment with PA system as we don't jam with it, it gets set up only for gigs and normally we plug in at preset levels and hook straight in and I adjust my sound as the first song progresses. I'll be using my Peavey Wolfgang Special. Fingers crossed and I'll report back.

I did check with bandmates about micing up a small amp and it could be a goer, but I'll try this amp sim pedal gear first and see how that sounds.

Thanks heaps for the contributions...hopefully I'll have something that sounds half decent with less nasty surprises than my current set up.
#16
Joyo orange juice amp sim turned up so I tested it through my amp, not bad...not bad at all if you just want some dirt but not too much, so I hooked up my Groove59 overdrive in front of it with the volume at same level and gain at about 3 o'clock and stacked them. Sounds awesome for the dirtier stuff and then I can punch my boost pedal for solos.

The real test will be running it through PA system next Friday. Will put DI box at the end and run straight to the desk....gulp. Hope it works.
#17
Quote by hawkenstien
Hey...wondering if anyone has any issues like this.

Band plays through a PA system/mixing desk. I'm the lead guitarist and use a pretty standard pedalboard, but for some reason when I use two overdrive pedals either one at a time or stacking....one of them craps out and the signal becomes faint, so I end up being forced to use the one pedal all night and have to bend down to change settings. I'm told it's probably a lack of headroom in the PA so the signal gets compressed if I use a second overdrive.

Is this my fate? Or is there another option for me. I can't use an AMP, not enough room normally and they don't want me turning myself up..typical band. I'm using all analog pedals, would it make any difference if I used a digital overdrive/effects pedal I wonder?

Anyone got any ideas?


Regardless of the issue is here do what other poster have said. Get a DI box and send the balanced signal to the mixer. May even help resolve your problems.

You say "....gulp. Hope it works" you will be fine have confidence.
Last edited by Yola_Yola at Jun 13, 2015,
#18
Thanks man. I'm sure it will be fine...baptism of fire and all. I've got a DI box now. Don't much about them but this has two channels that can be linked. That might mean I can plug my violin in the other socket and run that the same way with the pedal lineup. You can get interesting sounds on a violin with guitar fx pedals :-)
#19
Quote by hawkenstien
Thanks man. I'm sure it will be fine...baptism of fire and all. I've got a DI box now. Don't much about them but this has two channels that can be linked. That might mean I can plug my violin in the other socket and run that the same way with the pedal lineup. You can get interesting sounds on a violin with guitar fx pedals :-)


Depends what the DI is but you can on some send the one signal you put in to two outs using two balanced XLR cables into two XLR inputs on the desk. Can give your FOH guy a few more option to mix with tone etc on two inputs on the channel strip.
#20
Update post gig........went swimmingly well. The chain of command was tuner, overdrive, joyo orange juice sim, boost, delay, cheaparse Behringer DI box, to the desk. Im not sure what the decibal selection means on the DI box but i left it at 0Db. No issues at all, stuff all noise....but some feedback every now and then but that may have been because I moved in front of a speaker...which was good actually coz when I wanted feedback I got it :-)

The only problem with the Joyo pedals is the writing is so freaking small you have to memorise the knob labels unless you have eyes of an eagle. One it's set up its normally fine and you can leave it all night, but on the chance you need to adjust the levels....hope you have 20/20 vision coz I don't.
Last edited by hawkenstien at Jun 19, 2015,